Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[711]

It is counterproductive becauase it pisses people off so they stop listening to you but the idea that people would decide which way to vote based on being pissed off by people online - instead of based on their analysis of what the vote means for their country - blows my mind. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. Bonkers.

Again, you're right, but it's the way people are. And by people I mean all of us, just to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[JPRouve]

You are right, yet I can sort of see where he's coming from. Some of the Remain 'you're stupid, you're racist, you're uneducated, you're old, you think we still have an empire (really?)' stuff was, and is, hugely counterproductive.

Agreed, disdain has never made anyone change his opinion. The problem though is that we are in a dead-end because people also don't want to hear about experts opinion or complicated answers. Following politics in several countries, the common denominator is that people want to simplify every issue that they face and they want short answers that are easily explainable and applicable. It is impossible to have a genuinely productive debate in those conditions.

 

[afrocentricity]

I'm with Pogue on this, I can't relate. It's just being stubborn and either doubling down or reacting to something you don't like irrationally in spite of the consequences. Why is that okay or understandable? Maybe I'm slightly overstating it, I'm not sure.

Just don't get it. If someone tells me I'm wrong about something I don't just put my fingers in my ears and ignore them, I hear them out, sometimes even change my position based on it. I've done it on here loads of times. I can accept if I'm wrong.

If someone suggest I do something or don't do something, I'll listen to the reasons why. Not stubbornly double down and do it anyway just because I don't like what they say or how they said. It's deeply problematic imo and partly why we are where we are.... That's all I'll say on it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Again, you're right, but it's the way people are. And by people I mean all of us, just to a greater or lesser extent.

Yeah, possibly. Although I think people who spend a load of time on Facebook (and Twitter, to a lesser extent) are much more at risk of choosing their vote primarily on the basis that they want to piss certain people off.

I don’t think that was an issue a generation ago. Although I admit they may have been voting based on similarly shallow rationales (voting the way their parents would have etc.)

 

[711]

Yeah, possibly. Although I think people who spend a load of time on Facebook (and Twitter, to a lesser extent) are much more at risk of choosing their vote primarily on the basis that they want to piss certain people off.

I don’t think that was an issue a generation ago. Although I admit they may have been voting based on similarly shallow rationales (voting the way their parents would have etc.)

I truly hate twitter. People only follow those they agree with, and then use their tweets to prove how right they were in the first place. Well yeah, they would, wouldn't they?

The voting the way parents did is interesting, I've heard this a lot on the cafe, what class were you born into, and what did your parents do etc. I'll swear in my day everyone voted the opposite of their parents. That might have been just us hippies though.

 

[Steven Seagull]

I'm with Pogue on this, I can't relate. It's just being stubborn and either doubling down or reacting to something you don't like irrationally in spite of the consequences. Why is that okay or understandable? Maybe I'm slightly overstating it, I'm not sure.

Just don't get it. If someone tells me I'm wrong about something I don't just put my fingers in my ears and ignore them, I hear them out, sometimes even change my position based on it. I've done it on here loads of times. I can accept if I'm wrong.

If someone suggest I do something or don't do something, I'll listen to the reasons why. Not stubbornly double down and do it anyway just because I don't like what they say or how they said. It's deeply problematic imo and partly why we are where we are.... That's all I'll say on it.

It’s not irrational to some people though. They think long term gain is worth some short term pain so the same arguments aren’t being listened to because most people already know, and accept it.

They see it as 1 step back and eventually many steps forward. A lot of people don’t seem to be able to grasp that and so they end up getting childish and calling everyone a blue passport wanker. That’s without even getting started on the real brexit fanatics

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I truly hate twitter. People only follow those they agree with, and then use their tweets to prove how right they were in the first place. Well yeah, they would, wouldn't they?

The voting the way parents did is interesting, I've heard this a lot on the cafe, what class were you born into, and what did your parents do etc. I'll swear in my day everyone voted the opposite of their parents. That might have been just us hippies though.

Actually, yeah, you could be right about voting the opposite way to your parents. Hard to know what influenced voters pre social media. Maybe, perish the thought, they made an informed decision based on their own understanding of the issues at hand?! That shit just doesn’t wash any more, evidently.

 

[Honest John]

It was a vote of colossal magnitude and should never have been a simple question or a simple majority. Given the consequences there should have been at least a 55% minimum required to change the status quo.

 

[Adisa]

Voting in a particular way just to piss off a section of people must be one of the most stupid things an individual can do.

 

[horsechoker]

I'm with Pogue on this, I can't relate. It's just being stubborn and either doubling down or reacting to something you don't like irrationally in spite of the consequences. Why is that okay or understandable? Maybe I'm slightly overstating it, I'm not sure.

Just don't get it. If someone tells me I'm wrong about something I don't just put my fingers in my ears and ignore them, I hear them out, sometimes even change my position based on it. I've done it on here loads of times. I can accept if I'm wrong.

If someone suggest I do something or don't do something, I'll listen to the reasons why. Not stubbornly double down and do it anyway just because I don't like what they say or how they said. It's deeply problematic imo and partly why we are where we are.... That's all I'll say on it.

People don't like to be belittled or made to feel stupid, even if they're demonstrably wrong. Even if it seems illogical, it's just how some people think.

There are many people who think emotionally rather than logically which is what has fuelled much of the Leave arguments.

 

[afrocentricity]

It’s not irrational to some people though. They think long term gain is worth some short term pain so the same arguments aren’t being listened to because most people already know, and accept it.

They see it as 1 step back and eventually many steps forward. A lot of people don’t seem to be able to grasp that and so they end up getting childish and calling everyone a blue passport wanker. That’s without even getting started on the real brexit fanatics

What gain tho? What 2 steps forward?

People don't like to be belittled or made to feel stupid, even if they're demonstrably wrong. Even if it seems illogical, it's just how some people think.

There are many people who think emotionally rather than logically which is what has fuelled much of the Leave arguments.

Exactly, and it's stupid. Let's call a spade a spade.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It’s not irrational to some people though. They think long term gain is worth some short term pain so the same arguments aren’t being listened to because most people already know, and accept it.

They see it as 1 step back and eventually many steps forward. A lot of people don’t seem to be able to grasp that and so they end up getting childish and calling everyone a blue passport wanker. That’s without even getting started on the real brexit fanatics

That would be a rationale for being pro-Brexit from day one. And I can sort of understand that. Tear the whole thing down and start again. All the more tempting when you haven’t got a lot to lose.

It’s the idea that someone might think staying in the EU is the best for their country, only to flip to Leave because they don’t like the way people talk about Leave voters that seems crazy.

 

[Silva]

Voting in a particular way just to piss off a section of people must be one of the most stupid things an individual can do.

This isn't a real phenomenon. The closest thing is a protest vote, which is a legitimate part of democracy.

 

[Adisa]

I also find the argument that you've changed your mind because of how the EU is treating us in negotiations, silly. You were told before hand that this is exactly how negotiations would go. So why get upset?

 

[afrocentricity]

That would be a rationale for being pro-Brexit from day one. And I can sort of understand that. Tear the whole thing down and start again. All the more tempting when you haven’t got a lot to lose.

It’s the idea that someone might think staying in the EU is the best for their country, only to flip to Leave because they don’t like the way people talk about Leave voters that seems crazy.

I also find the argument that you've changed your mind because of how the EU is treating us in negotiations, silly. You were told before hand that this is exactly how negotiations would go. So why get upset?

Agreed.

 

[Honest John]

I'm 7 years off retirement. For the first time in my life I am solvent. The Company I work for is doing well.

For selfish reasons and for the sake of the 40 employees I represent... I bloody well don't want to take one step back.

 

[Adisa]

This isn't a real phenomenon. The closest thing is a protest vote, which is a legitimate part of democracy.

That's what some have described over the last couple of pages. Don't know anyone that votes like that personally.

 

[Silva]

That's what some have described over the last couple of pages. Don't know anyone that votes like that personally.

Nah it's horseshit mate. It's a bad argument that has zero backing. There are frequently large numbers of voters who vote to for one candidate because they hate the other - i.e Trump voters motivated by their hatred of Clinton and vice versa - this is a position taken up by people in a lot of elections. But that's a legitimate reason too. If you think one party or politician will make your life worse or be a bad politician, you vote against them. But the only people you'll find saying "we voted x to make the libs or nazi's cry" etc. are internet trolls who chat shit.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Heh.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eu-referendum-uk-residents-vote-today.404633/page-8#post-18743860

And then only started to say 'I voted Remain or I am undecided' as a way in to attacks on every facet of the Remain argument.

Also that page is an amusing example of how Nick was wrong about everything. I especially liked his prediction that a post-leave vote Britain would shift towards the left.

I have my own opinion of how he really voted originally but it doesn't matter, the referendum was over 2 years ago and I highly doubt there'll be another one in the next ten years. Nick was just wet behind the ears imo.

Looking forward to @Chorley1974 response

Possibly the strong economic argument put forward by the Leave camp since the referendum?

 

[Wibble]

That would be a rationale for being pro-Brexit from day one. And I can sort of understand that. Tear the whole thing down and start again. All the more tempting when you haven’t got a lot to lose.

The only flaw is that it is utter bullshit.

 

[Wibble]

I'm 7 years off retirement. For the first time in my life I am solvent. The Company I work for is doing well.

For selfish reasons and for the sake of the 40 employees I represent... I bloody well don't want to take one step back.

How does the UK becoming a banana republic help you or your employees?

 

[Smores]

That would be a rationale for being pro-Brexit from day one. And I can sort of understand that. Tear the whole thing down and start again. All the more tempting when you haven’t got a lot to lose.

It’s the idea that someone might think staying in the EU is the best for their country, only to flip to Leave because they don’t like the way people talk about Leave voters that seems crazy.

That's a very extreme example. In reality it's more people who share some of the leave arguments but sat on the fence in which way they'll vote, they then double down when one side appears to treat them with disdain and the other provides confirmation bias. I doubt anyone is doing a 180.

 

[Wibble]

People don't like to be belittled or made to feel stupid, even if they're demonstrably wrong. Even if it seems illogical, it's just how some people think.

There are many people who think emotionally rather than logically which is what has fuelled much of the Leave arguments.

It really makes you wonder about this democracy thing.

 

[afrocentricity]

Flip flopping snowflakes....

 

[Honest John]

How does the UK becoming a banana republic help you or your employees?

In what regard are we going to become a banana republic?

 

[711]

I also find the argument that you've changed your mind because of how the EU is treating us in negotiations, silly. You were told before hand that this is exactly how negotiations would go. So why get upset?

Sorry to pick on your post as an example Adisa, but this is kind of what I was referring to earlier. I agree with the content, it's the tone that doesn't work. If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last, and constantly talking down to the 52% who voted out just isn't the best way to go about it.

 

[horsechoker]

It really makes you wonder about this democracy thing.

It does make a case for only informed people being allowed to vote. But on the other hand we have a party full of graduates from some of the best schools and universities in the country leading us down a destructive path. So will the informed always make utilitarian decisions?

 

[JPRouve]

Sorry to pick on your post as an example Adisa, but this is kind of what I was referring to earlier. I agree with the content, it's the tone that doesn't work. If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last, and constantly talking down to the 52% who voted out just isn't the best way to go about it.

I'm not sure about what he was supposed to say here, informed? Because a part of the electorate were informed and they rejected it on the argument that experts knew nothing and that it was project fear. Surely you realize that while playing devil's advocate you are actually working for the devil?

 

[afrocentricity]

Sorry to pick on your post as an example Adisa, but this is kind of what I was referring to earlier. I agree with the content, it's the tone that doesn't work. If there is another referendum it could easily be as close as the last, and constantly talking down to the 52% who voted out just isn't the best way to go about it.

Sad state of affairs when the tone of an arguement or statement is more important than the content.

 

[JPRouve]

Sad state of affairs when the tone of an arguement or statement is more important than the content.

It's not. Think about it, it doesn't bother them when they are told by the other side, where is the difference?

 

[afrocentricity]

It's not. Think about it, it doesn't bother them when they are told by the other side, where is the difference?

I know it's not, but apparently to some it is....

 

[Wibble]

It does make a case for only informed people being allowed to vote. But on the other hand we have a party full of graduates from some of the best schools and universities in the country leading us down a destructive path. So will the informed always make utilitarian decisions?

Depressing isn't it?

 

[Wibble]

In what regard are we going to become a banana republic?

Leaving the EU. Gradually becoming less and less politically and economically important. That sort of thing.

 

[711]

Depressing isn't it?

Certainly is. If I'm reading the mood of the country as a whole right, as opposed to the chattering places like this, it's pretty much descended into 'fate will take it's course'. The weekly audience calls on Question Time to 'just get on with it' seem to sum it up. There, that's cheered you up hasn't it?

 

[Honest John]

Leaving the EU. Gradually becoming less and less politically and economically important. That sort of thing.

I don't want to leave the EU. That's my point. Those who argue for it are saying we need to take 1 step back in order to move forward. Well that's ok if you've not much to lose.

 

[711]

I'm not sure about what he was supposed to say here, informed? Because a part of the electorate were informed and they rejected it on the argument that experts knew nothing and that it was project fear. Surely you realize that while playing devil's advocate you are actually working for the devil?

I presume we can agree that the Remain campaign hasn't been and isn't as successful as it should be, given the arguments. I've then attempted to explain one reason why, no doubt in a poor fashion, and maybe I'm just wrong anyway, but that's all I've tried to do.

 

[Wibble]

I don't want to leave the EU. That's my point. Those who argue for it are saying we need to take 1 step back in order to move forward. Well that's ok if you've not much to lose.

Agreed

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I presume we can agree that the Remain campaign hasn't been and isn't as successful as it should be, given the arguments. I've then attempted to explain one reason why, no doubt in a poor fashion, and maybe I'm just wrong anyway, but that's all I've tried to do.

Who was and who is the Remain Campaign - Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Blair and Major and the odd labour MP who were or are rather too quiet and soft.

Whereas the Leave campaign were full of loud mouthed liars like Johnson, Farage, Gove plus JRM, Redwood etc.

Maybe it wasn't that that the Leavers were being called idiots that was the problem, it was that Remain was too quiet and polite. And that is why the Uk is drifting and sleepwalking into disaster.
Normally you'd expect the leader of the opposition to rally the troops but there is no leader of the opposition.

 

[Wibble]

Certainly is. If I'm reading the mood of the country as a whole right, as opposed to the chattering places like this, it's pretty much descended into 'fate will take it's course'. The weekly audience calls on Question Time to 'just get on with it' seem to sum it up. There, that's cheered you up hasn't it?

Nope

 

[711]

Who was and who is the Remain Campaign - Cameron, Osborne, Ken Clarke, Blair and Major and the odd labour MP who were or are rather too quiet and soft.

Whereas the Leave campaign were full of loud mouthed liars like Johnson, Farage, Gove plus JRM, Redwood etc.

Maybe it wasn't that that the Leavers were being called idiots that was the problem, it was that Remain was too quiet and polite. And that is why the Uk is drifting and sleepwalking into disaster.
Normally you'd expect the leader of the opposition to rally the troops but there is no leader of the opposition.

The leader of the opposition being a lifelong Brexiter might not be helping in that respect.

I get the gist of your 'big names' though, Redwood excepted. It seemed a positive for Remain at the time, but maybe not.