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Sweet Square said:
Just one of many examples.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-drowning-charity-mediterranean-a8423261.html

If you don't want to talk about the failures of liberalism then shut about fascism is the way I would put it.
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Here is the press release from the European Council which is made up of the 28 leaders of the 28 countries , (May, Merkel, Macron etc) who are from many different political parties, all voted for by their electorates. Are you saying all 28 countries are racists including the UK?

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2018/06/29/20180628-euco-conclusions-final/
 
Sweet Square said:
Hey whatever makes you feel better about kids drowning right ?
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You do realize that the smugglers are the ones putting several dozens of people in small, barely functioning boats against money? And that also funnel a part of the candidates to slave markets?

They very much need to be stopped which shouldn't prevent us from helping africans too but that's a different topic to the one concerning smugglers and human exploitation.
 
JPRouve said:
You do realize that the smugglers are the ones putting several dozens of people in small, barely functioning boats against money? And that also funnel a part of the candidates to slave markets?

They very much need to be stopped which shouldn't prevent us from helping africans too but that's a different topic to the one concerning smugglers and human exploitation.
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Of course they need to be stopped but how does turning boats already at sea and not saving people who are drowning the sea in way the answer to any this ?

Again from the article I posted

Karline Kleijer, head of emergencies at Médecins Sans Frontières, which supports some of the boats, said: “Saving lives at sea is not a crime. EU member states are abdicating their responsibilities to save lives and deliberately condemning vulnerable people to be trapped in Libya, or die at sea.

“They do this fully aware of the extreme violence and abuses that refugees and migrants suffer in Libya. MSF urges European governments to show some basic decency and remember that we are talking about human lives and human suffering. They can start by committing to search and rescue, and facilitate swift disembarkation in places of safety. This does not mean Libya.”
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We all looked at disgust when the US & Trump where stealing people kids and putting them in cages but what trump supporters say - ''Well we don't know if these people are actually the parents to the kids their brining across the border'' ''There's a lot smuggling through the border'' etc. But to no surprise a hell of a lot us europeans are no different.

What needs to happens is genuine international help from the west(Sort of impossible I know because it's our fault Libya is the hell hole we see today)and not as the director of Amnesty International’s European institutions office says

EU leaders have chosen to pander to xenophobic governments who are hellbent on keeping Europe closed, and to push even more responsibility onto countries outside the EU.
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Paul the Wolf said:
Jesus wept.

Maybe the UK could take in more refugees, oh they opted out, didn't they?
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Er I'm not sure what your point is here. I really don't like the UK government at all to the point where I'm trying to get a far left politician to be the prime minster but yes to answer the question I think the UK should take more refugees.
 
Sweet Square said:
Where does letting brown people drown in the sea fit on the idealogical scale ? Yeah I get that leaving the EU for the UK isn't the greatest idea and considering the history of Europe having the EU just fall to shit wouldn't again be a great outcome but it has to be mentioned that the EU is a deeply problematic and racist political institution that is doing nothing to stop the rise of the far right.
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Not nearly as racists as your typical brexiteer though.
 
Sweet Square said:
Er I'm not sure what your point is here. I really don't like the UK government at all to the point where I'm trying to get a far left politician to be the prime minster but yes to answer the question I think the UK should take more refugees.
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Your original point is that the EU is supposedly racist because the 28 leaders are supposedly pandering to the far right because some journalist in the Independent interpreted it that way. But in fact you are saying the EU council which is made up of prime ministers and presidents of all persuasions, left right and middle have announced that they won't encourage the smugglers.

Now if you are favouring a far left politician to be PM who doesn't even support freedom of movement to change things, firstly do you seriously think he would be elected if he accepted the number of refugees that other European countries take in even if he was that way inclined or once the UK have left will they be sending their ships to bring these refugees to the UK.

The problem is what to do with these refugees, what is your proposal?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Your original point is that the EU is supposedly racist because the 28 leaders are supposedly pandering to the far right because some journalist in the Independent interpreted it that way. But in fact you are saying the EU council which is made up of prime ministers and presidents of all persuasions, left right and middle have announced that they won't encourage the smugglers.

Now if you are favouring a far left politician to be PM who doesn't even support freedom of movement to change things, firstly do you seriously think he would be elected if he accepted the number of refugees that other European countries take in even if he was that way inclined or once the UK have left will they be sending their ships to bring these refugees to the UK.

The problem is what to do with these refugees, what is your proposal?
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Read the article I link to again. It isn't just one journalist

Karline Kleijer, head of emergencies at Médecins Sans Frontières, which supports some of the boats, said: “Saving lives at sea is not a crime. EU member states are abdicating their responsibilities to save lives and deliberately condemning vulnerable people to be trapped in Libya, or die at sea.

“They do this fully aware of the extreme violence and abuses that refugees and migrants suffer in Libya. MSF urges European governments to show some basic decency and remember that we are talking about human lives and human suffering. They can start by committing to search and rescue, and facilitate swift disembarkation in places of safety. This does not mean Libya.”
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and

Iverna McGowan, director of Amnesty International’s European institutions office, said: “After days of bickering, EU leaders have signed off a raft of dangerous and self-serving policies which could expose men, women and children to serious abuse.

“The summit was a chance to fix Europe’s broken asylum system and create policies based on fairness, effectiveness and compassion. Instead EU leaders have chosen to pander to xenophobic governments who are hellbent on keeping Europe closed, and to push even more responsibility onto countries outside the EU.”
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Paul the Wolf said:
The problem is what to do with these refugees, what is your proposal?
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The article answer some of this.

Karline Kleijer, head of emergencies at Médecins Sans Frontières- They can start by committing to search and rescue, and facilitate swift disembarkation in places of safety. This does not mean Libya.”
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Sweet Square said:
Read the article I link to again. It isn't just one journalist

and

The article answer some of this.
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Ok the Amnesty woman said the EU were pandering to xenophobic governments - so who said the EU is racist. Is she saying Italy has more sway than the UK France or Germany, I don't think so.

There are several problems here, stopping the smugglers putting people in unseaworthy boats - allowing them to do it and then going to rescue them isn't a solution. Which countries outside the EU are taking responsibility. Where are the refugees supposed to go when some countries like Germany are taking vast numbers and others like the UK are taking hardly any.

I don't have a solution but I'm going back to my original point as to why the EU could be seen as racist or that the EU is pandering to the far right. The far right are more prominent in the USA, in the UK as well as some other European countries - doesn't mean the whole of the EU is pro far right.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Ok the Amnesty woman said the EU were pandering to xenophobic governments - so who said the EU is racist. Is she saying Italy has more sway than the UK France or Germany, I don't think so.

There are several problems here, stopping the smugglers putting people in unseaworthy boats - allowing them to do it and then going to rescue them isn't a solution. Which countries outside the EU are taking responsibility. Where are the refugees supposed to go when some countries like Germany are taking vast numbers and others like the UK are taking hardly any.

I don't have a solution but I'm going back to my original point as to why the EU could be seen as racist or that the EU is pandering to the far right. The far right are more prominent in the USA, in the UK as well as some other European countries - doesn't mean the whole of the EU is pro far right.
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Paul the Wolf said:
So one woman says so thus it must be so that all 28 European Countries are racist including Merkel who has been criticised for taking so many refugees but apparently runs the EU.
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Look we live in a world where racism is completely linked to every part of our social and economic life so yeah all european countries are racist, there will be some who are more openly racist than others and visa versa but the eu policy on refugees when listening to the experts(I thought you lot liked experts ?)is killing people and pandering to far right governments.

As my first post mentioned that doesn't mean we just destroy the EU but for those's who are pro EU for ideology reasons they have to also realise the pitfalls and failings of the it.
 
Sweet Square said:
As my first post mentioned that doesn't mean we just destroy the EU but for those's who are pro EU for ideology reasons they have to also realise the pitfalls and failings of the it.
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Pitfalls? How exactly do you think the situation would be better if the EU wasn’t there? The ultimate leaders of the EU are the same leaders of the individual states. If they’re not helping enough now, they certainly wouldn’t be if it was just their country making decisions alone.
 
Sweet Square said:
Look we live in a world where racism is completely linked to every part of our social and economic life so yeah all european countries are racist, there will be some who are more openly racist than others and visa versa but the eu policy on refugees when listening to the experts(I thought you lot liked experts ?)is killing people and pandering to far right governments.

As my first post mentioned that doesn't mean we just destroy the EU but for those's who are pro EU for ideology reasons they have to also realise the pitfalls and failings of the it.
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I don't think I've met a remainer yet who doesn't understand and accept the disadvantages of the EU. The issue is that weighing up the benefits of no longer being governed by hypothetical situations do not outweigh the very real consequences of leaving and the benefits also to staying. It's much much much the lesser of two evils. Not to mention, when you're unhappy with something flawed, you work to fix it you don't throw a tantrum and walk away when you've already been treated favourably as it is. That is literally what children do.
 
Kentonio said:
Pitfalls? How exactly do you think the situation would be better if the EU wasn’t there? The ultimate leaders of the EU are the same leaders of the individual states. If they’re not helping enough now, they certainly wouldn’t be if it was just their country making decisions alone.
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I'm saying they should change policy not leave.

Zarlak said:
I don't think I've met a remainer yet who doesn't understand and accept the disadvantages of the EU. The issue is that weighing up the benefits of no longer being governed by hypothetical situations do not outweigh the very real consequences of leaving and the benefits also to staying. It's much much much the lesser of two evils. Not to mention, when you're unhappy with something flawed, you work to fix it you don't throw a tantrum and walk away when you've already been treated favourably as it is. That is literally what children do.
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Yeah I would mostly agree with that but I'm very pessimistic about how much change can actually happen in the EU, there constant warning signs of a rising far right and well nothing is happening.
 
Sweet Square said:
Look we live in a world where racism is completely linked to every part of our social and economic life so yeah all european countries are racist, there will be some who are more openly racist than others and visa versa but the eu policy on refugees when listening to the experts(I thought you lot liked experts ?)is killing people and pandering to far right governments.

As my first post mentioned that doesn't mean we just destroy the EU but for those's who are pro EU for ideology reasons they have to also realise the pitfalls and failings of the it.
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Name a country anywhere in the world where racism or xenophobia is not present. That includes the Americas, Asia, Australasia and Africa
In eight months time the Uk will no longer be part of the EU, what will be different in 8 months time with regards racism and xenophobia,all that has changed since the referendum is that their racism and xenophobia is more in the open

I see a lot of criticism from the so-called experts but do I see a solution? As I said allowing smugglers to load people into unseaworthy boats and then having to rescue them is not a solution.
 
Sweet Square said:
I'm saying they should change policy not leave.
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Yet you’re saying there are downsides to the EU, when in reality the situation is probably improved not diminished by the EU’s existence. We’ve seen many times how single countries tend to veer more towards closed borders and anti-immigration policy when the demands on them increase due to a crisis.

The EU allows the burden to be spread, and policies to be enacted that use the combined resources of member states to try and solve major international issues. What the EU cannot do however is enact policy that the member states would find completely unacceptable, like instituting a basically open door policy.The EU has to reflect the main desires of its member states, otherwise anti-EU sentiment will spun out of control. We’re already seeing the refugee crisis fueling a huge group in nationalist groups.
 
Kentonio said:
Yet you’re saying there are downsides to the EU, when in reality the situation is probably improved not diminished by the EU’s existence. We’ve seen many times how single countries tend to veer more towards closed borders and anti-immigration policy when the demands on them increase due to a crisis.

The EU allows the burden to be spread, and policies to be enacted that use the combined resources of member states to try and solve major international issues. What the EU cannot do however is enact policy that the member states would find completely unacceptable, like instituting a basically open door policy.The EU has to reflect the main desires of its member states, otherwise anti-EU sentiment will spun out of control. We’re already seeing the refugee crisis fueling a huge group in nationalist groups.
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Just read the article I posted or my other posts when there's quotes from the article. Because I'll just be repeating myself.
 
Sweet Square said:
Just read the article I posted or my other posts when there's quotes from the article. Because I'll just be repeating myself.
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What exactly are you proposing? There is no popular support for increased immigration in Europe. Nor is there anywhere else in the world for that matter (including where there is no obvious race issue, like Zimbabweans going to RSA). It’s a desperate situation where thousands and thousands of people are willing to risk their life to get to the promised land but I don’t see how providing a fallback rescue service to unsafe smuggler boats is really helping the situation, even though I am sure it helps the white people running it feel good about themselves. I firmly believe that Merkel’s complacent “wir schaffen das” wrecked the Remain campaign and similar action in future will only pile up the votes for Orban, AfD, Le Pen, Farage/Tommy Robinson etc. Any long-term solutions have to involve the global community (particularly the US and China) in some kind of development plan. Until then, it’s not reasonable to expect the immediate neighbours to bear the burden.
 
MoskvaRed said:
What exactly are you proposing? There is no popular support for increased immigration in Europe. Nor is there anywhere else in the world for that matter (including where there is no obvious race issue, like Zimbabweans going to RSA). It’s a desperate situation where thousands and thousands of people are willing to risk their life to get to the promised land but I don’t see how providing a fallback rescue service to unsafe smuggler boats is really helping the situation, even though I am sure it helps the white people running it feel good about themselves. I firmly believe that Merkel’s complacent “wir schaffen das” wrecked the Remain campaign and similar action in future will only pile up the votes for Orban, AfD, Le Pen, Farage/Tommy Robinson etc. Any long-term solutions have to involve the global community (particularly the US and China) in some kind of development plan. Until then, it’s not reasonable to expect the immediate neighbours to bear the burden.
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As a first step.
Karline Kleijer, head of emergencies at Médecins Sans Frontières, which supports some of the boats, said: “They can start by committing to search and rescue, and facilitate swift disembarkation in places of safety. This does not mean Libya.
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Sweet Square said:
As a first step.

Karline Kleijer, head of emergencies at Médecins Sans Frontières, which supports some of the boats, said: “They can start by committing to search and rescue, and facilitate swift disembarkation in places of safety. This does not mean Libya.
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So where exactly is this ‘safe disembarkation’ supposed to take place exactly? Which country is the EU supposed to tell they have to accept additional refugees?
 
Kentonio said:
So where exactly is this ‘safe disembarkation’ supposed to take place exactly? Which country is the EU supposed to tell they have to accept additional refugees?
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PNG or Nauru.

Works for Australia. Gulags R US.
 
JPRouve said:
You do realize that the smugglers are the ones putting several dozens of people in small, barely functioning boats against money? And that also funnel a part of the candidates to slave markets?

They very much need to be stopped which shouldn't prevent us from helping africans too but that's a different topic to the one concerning smugglers and human exploitation.
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Countries from the EU doesn't allow ships like Aquarius and Open Arms to enter to any port to unload refugees saved to be drown in the sea, even in Italy they wanted to prosecute the sailors but they finally released them.

Read about the dark side of the Operation Sophia, where the EU funds Lybian guardcoast that sometimes turn to be warlords that grabs refugees from the sea and bring them to XXI slave markets. The EU knows that but only retires the fundings to the groups that they get caught. Not to mention the refugees that piles up in european countries and european countries that don't accept the agreed numbers of refugees.

The problem are not the smugglers. People that flee from war will try it anyway. The smugglers are just the channel and blame them doesn't have anything to do that the EU could do much better in helping them instead of participating in destroying their country or pay off turkey to contain them there (just an example)
 
4bars said:
Countries from the EU doesn't allow ships like Aquarius and Open Arms to enter to any port to unload refugees saved to be drown in the sea, even in Italy they wanted to prosecute the sailors but they finally released them.

Read about the dark side of the Operation Sophia, where the EU funds Lybian guardcoast that sometimes turn to be warlords that grabs refugees from the sea and bring them to XXI slave markets. The EU knows that but only retires the fundings to the groups that they get caught. Not to mention the refugees that piles up in european countries and european countries that don't accept the agreed numbers of refugees.

The problem are not the smugglers. People that flee from war will try it anyway. The smugglers are just the channel and blame them doesn't have anything to do that the EU could do much better in helping them instead of participating in destroying their country or pay off turkey to contain them there (just an example)
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The Aquarius is a perfect example, it's on France and Italy, no one else.
 
Kentonio said:
Yet you’re saying there are downsides to the EU, when in reality the situation is probably improved not diminished by the EU’s existence. We’ve seen many times how single countries tend to veer more towards closed borders and anti-immigration policy when the demands on them increase due to a crisis.

The EU allows the burden to be spread, and policies to be enacted that use the combined resources of member states to try and solve major international issues. What the EU cannot do however is enact policy that the member states would find completely unacceptable, like instituting a basically open door policy.The EU has to reflect the main desires of its member states, otherwise anti-EU sentiment will spun out of control. We’re already seeing the refugee crisis fueling a huge group in nationalist groups.
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The eu allows the burden to spread? Good grief.

Allows burden to spread between Greece and Italy.

What critical situations have the eu handled well?
 
Stanley Road said:
The eu allows the burden to spread? Good grief.

Allows burden to spread between Greece and Italy.

What critical situations have the eu handled well?
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Just think when the UK leaves the EU next year and are no longer under their constraints, the UK could then accept to take a million refugees or two.
 
Stanley Road said:
Not really answering the question Paul is it?
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You said about the EU sharing the burden. They do amongst most of the countries but the UK doesn't because they don't want the refugees and as we're in the Brexit thread and comparing the UK with the EU, which one is deficient in your opinion?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
You said about the EU sharing the burden. They do amongst most of the countries but the UK doesn't because they don't want the refugees and as we're in the Brexit thread and comparing the UK with the EU, which one is deficient in your opinion?
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They don't share the burden equally tho, Italy has decided they've had enough, to the delight of my Italian colleagues, Malta wont take any. On a political level there are country leaders that are utter tossers, far far worse than the UK's PM.
 
Stanley Road said:
They don't share the burden equally tho, Italy has decided they've had enough, to the delight of my Italian colleagues, Malta wont take any. On a political level there are country leaders that are utter tossers, far far worse than the UK's PM.
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But we are talking about individual country's decisions , I'm so far away with agreeing with the Italian leader but how many refugees have Italy taken and how many have the UK taken, in fact tell me which European country has taken less than the UK. If you, an anti-Tory, can't see how much the UK PM obviously dislikes foreigners there's something wrong.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
But we are talking about individual country's decisions , I'm so far away with agreeing with the Italian leader but how many refugees have Italy taken and how many have the UK taken, in fact tell me which European country has taken less than the UK. If you, an anti-Tory, can't see how much the UK PM obviously dislikes foreigners there's something wrong.
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The Eastern Europeans have surely taken least.
 
“I think the public can differentiate between people who come here with a job and will be contributing to the economy and those who, under free movement, were able to come to the UK and use our public services without ever having contributed to them,” Fox told LBC radio.

Fox is a moronic piece of scum.
 
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