How good was Paul Scholes?

WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
What are you comparing him to though? He started off as a world-class goal-scoring attacking midfielder and ended up as a world-class deep-lying play-maker. As far as midfield players go, he could do absolutely everything at the very highest level.

There were definitely better individual players in specific midfield positions, but not one of them was as complete a midfield player as Scholes, so consistently for as long as Scholes.
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How was he a world class goal scoring attacking midfielder? he was a striker/support striker at 1st 2 seasons and no he did not compare to the Baggio's, Litmanans, Zidane's, Bergkamps of this world. No one regarded him world class and he had minimal impact on any world stage. He dropped into CM in 1998 onwards and wasn't even the best CM at United let alone the EPL or even the world. The likes of Butt and Batty made the team of the year ahead of him. sounds like world class to me.....

Ended up world class DLP? ok mate. What season was he world class as a DLP?
People have this romanticisation of Scholes as if they watch his 20 year highlight reel, compress it into one season and then use that as the benchmark of what he done year in year out. He could play many roles very well but then so could Gerrard who scored 23 from RM if I recall
 
James Peril said:
The problem with the perception of Paul Scholes is obvious. He wasn’t good when he was younger, a player you wouldn’t want in the team as a forward. Then he became a midfielder and the rest is history. And he’s ginger, that never helps.
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He was a jewel in that youth team. Scored some beautiful goals.

Later in the reserves he and Dion Dublin ran riot. They formed a Great strike partnership
 
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Red_Ramirez said:
Wish we had one of these in our midfield today. Someone who can see and play an early pass. The current bunch hog the ball ie. Pogba and Matic.

Carrick was taken for granted far too long when he was here. His critics (which he had many) just dont understand football
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Where is the "like" button. I've had several arguments over the years with United supporters about this. And as much as I hate to say it, most of them were English who wanted him to be more like Lampard/Gerrard and score more goals, or more like Scott fecking Parker and be a bulldog who ran around making big tackles...
 
Stacks said:
How was he a world class goal scoring attacking midfielder? he was a striker/support striker at 1st 2 seasons and no he did not compare to the Baggio's, Litmanans, Zidane's, Bergkamps of this world. No one regarded him world class and he had minimal impact on any world stage. He dropped into CM in 1998 onwards and wasn't even the best CM at United let alone the EPL or even the world. The likes of Butt and Batty made the team of the year ahead of him. sounds like world class to me.....
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His first 2 seasons maybe, but he played much more as an attacking central midfielder from 1997/98 until as late as the 2002/03 season really and averaged 1 in 4. He wasn't a withdrawn/support striker like Baggio, Litmanen and Bergkamp and the Zidane comparison probably holds more weight. Zidane was technically one of the best ever, but they were just as effective in that position from a creative point of view and Scholes enjoyed more success over that period at club level.

He had a minimal impact on the world stage as England were shocking and didn't know how to use him effectively - probably a big part in why he chose to end his International career so early.

The fact that Butt and Batty made it into teams of the year ahead of him tells you everything you need to know about what was wrong with English football in the 90s and 00s. Choosing midfield tenacity and combativeness over ability and technique.

Stacks said:
Ended up world class DLP? ok mate. What season was he world class as a DLP?
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I'd say 06/07 onwards for at least a couple of seasons. Dropped deeper and started to dictate play when he had the likes of Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Saha etc. in front of him.

Stacks said:
People have this romanticisation of Scholes as if they watch his 20 year highlight reel, compress it into one season and then use that as the benchmark of what he done year in year out. He could play many roles very well but then so could Gerrard who scored 23 from RM if I recall
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Gerrard was probably better in a more advanced role (as was Lampard), but no way was he as effective when he dropped deeper.

Scholes could do everything to a very high level. Apart from tackle maybe, but I still think a lot of those tackles were deliberately bad!
 
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Scholes is easily the best player I've seen live, his reading of the game was superb, his vision was second to none, Could pick out a team mates feet from anywhere on the pitch, his technique was immense.
Also he worked hard, and could score some absolute beauties.
 
I would do anything to have a 25 year old Paul Scholes in our current team. He would instantly bring our midfield up several gears.

A priceless player imo.
 
WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
Scholes could do everything to a very high level. Apart from tackle maybe, but I still think a lot of those tackles were deliberately bad!
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David May said, when Scholesy had already been booked for twatting someone, he used to go over to him and say "do that cnut for me, will you?" He was a nasty bastard, no question about that.
 
Stacks said:
How was he a world class goal scoring attacking midfielder? he was a striker/support striker at 1st 2 seasons and no he did not compare to the Baggio's, Litmanans, Zidane's, Bergkamps of this world. No one regarded him world class and he had minimal impact on any world stage. He dropped into CM in 1998 onwards and wasn't even the best CM at United let alone the EPL or even the world. The likes of Butt and Batty made the team of the year ahead of him. sounds like world class to me.....

Ended up world class DLP? ok mate. What season was he world class as a DLP?
People have this romanticisation of Scholes as if they watch his 20 year highlight reel, compress it into one season and then use that as the benchmark of what he done year in year out. He could play many roles very well but then so could Gerrard who scored 23 from RM if I recall
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How can any United fan watch scholes consistently and not consider him world class? Just read the opinions of the players he played against to understand how good he was. They weren’t saying “oh I’d love Batty in this Barca team”.

If scholes wasn’t English and homegrown I dare say he’d be remembered more fondly
 
A good player who became overrated after the CL won in 2008.
 
WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
His first 2 seasons maybe, but he played much more as an attacking central midfielder from 1997/98 until as late as the 2002/03 season really and averaged 1 in 4. He wasn't a withdrawn/support striker like Baggio, Litmanen and Bergkamp and the Zidane comparison probably holds more weight. Zidane was technically one of the best ever, but they were just as effective in that position from a creative point of view and Scholes enjoyed more success over that period at club level.

He had a minimal impact on the world stage as England were shocking and didn't know how to use him effectively - probably a big part in why he chose to end his International career so early.

The fact that Butt and Batty made it into teams of the year ahead of him tells you everything you need to know about what was wrong with English football in the 90s and 00s. Choosing midfield tenacity and combativeness over ability and technique.



I'd say 06/07 onwards for at least a couple of seasons. Dropped deeper and started to dictate play when he had the likes of Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Saha etc. in front of him.



Gerrard was probably better in a more advanced role (as was Lampard), but no way was he as effective when he dropped deeper.

Scholes could do everything to a very high level. Apart from tackle maybe, but I still think a lot of those tackles were deliberately bad!
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Scholes turned into a B2B midfielder, is the role I think you are trying to describe. In that period Zidane was world player of the year 3 times so I don't see how they are even comparable. Scholes success at club level is pretty irrelevant as they play in different leagues for different teams. As individuals, Zidane was recognised as the far better performer as an individual, hence Scholes was never world class in comparison.

The England thing is a joke aswell. Scholes himself never performed well enough to make himself undroppable for England. We have had continental style managers like Sven and Hoddle but Scholes didn't exactly perform like Xavi did for Spain or Pirlo for Italy.

Batty and Butt made it because in Scholes 1st season as an out and out CM, BLACKBURN won the title then United won the league without Scholes as Keane and Butt struck up a partnership. He just wasn't indispensable. Fergie even tried to replace him with Veron because he wasn't "world class" enough.

2007 was a solid season indeed in but I did not see him as better than Seedorf, nor Pirlo as a CM, who was so good in the role he knocked us out of the CL, won it and got nominated for Balon D'or. I would say Scholes was a level below. In 2008 did not feature till Jan and we were fine as Ronaldo carried us and 2009 didn't even get used in the CL final and hardly featured that season, which is far from what you expect of a world class DLP. Xavi and Co were streaks ahead at that point. The rest of his time at United was bit part. so really he had one top season as a deep centre midfielder.......
 
Stacks said:
How was he a world class goal scoring attacking midfielder? he was a striker/support striker at 1st 2 seasons and no he did not compare to the Baggio's, Litmanans, Zidane's, Bergkamps of this world. No one regarded him world class and he had minimal impact on any world stage. He dropped into CM in 1998 onwards and wasn't even the best CM at United let alone the EPL or even the world. The likes of Butt and Batty made the team of the year ahead of him. sounds like world class to me.....

Ended up world class DLP? ok mate. What season was he world class as a DLP?
People have this romanticisation of Scholes as if they watch his 20 year highlight reel, compress it into one season and then use that as the benchmark of what he done year in year out. He could play many roles very well but then so could Gerrard who scored 23 from RM if I recall
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As a second striker/attacking mid he was good but not great, as evidenced by being in and out of the team at times.

Once he moved back to midfield in 97 I think it was he was quickly established as a starter. It wasnt instant but before long he was indispensable, and as he got older and learned the position he was unrivalled for his ability to control a game. He was world class from 99 onwards.

He was good enough that when Veron arrived it was not to replace him but to help him move forward again. Once Veron left and he moved even further back he went from world class to one of the top 1 or 2 in the world.
 
Stacks said:
Scholes turned into a B2B midfielder, is the role I think you are trying to describe. In that period Zidane was world player of the year 3 times so I don't see how they are even comparable. Scholes success at club level is pretty irrelevant as they play in different leagues for different teams. As individuals, Zidane was recognised as the far better performer as an individual, hence Scholes was never world class in comparison.

The England thing is a joke aswell. Scholes himself never performed well enough to make himself undroppable for England. We have had continental style managers like Sven and Hoddle but Scholes didn't exactly perform like Xavi did for Spain or Pirlo for Italy.

Batty and Butt made it because in Scholes 1st season as an out and out CM, BLACKBURN won the title then United won the league without Scholes as Keane and Butt struck up a partnership. He just wasn't indispensable. Fergie even tried to replace him with Veron because he wasn't "world class" enough.

2007 was a solid season indeed in but I did not see him as better than Seedorf, nor Pirlo as a CM, who was so good in the role he knocked us out of the CL, won it and got nominated for Balon D'or. I would say Scholes was a level below. In 2008 did not feature till Jan and we were fine as Ronaldo carried us and 2009 didn't even get used in the CL final and hardly featured that season, which is far from what you expect of a world class DLP. Xavi and Co were streaks ahead at that point. The rest of his time at United was bit part. so really he had one top season as a deep centre midfielder.......
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Lol, saying Scholes is overrated and then using Zidane, who is perhaps the most overrated player of his generation, as a comparator...
 
Stacks said:
in Scholes 1st season as an out and out CM, BLACKBURN won the title
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No, Arsenal won it in 97/98, which was when Scholes established himself as a CM in Keane's absence. Blackburn won it in 94/95 which is when Scholes and Butt were only breaking through to the first team squad.
 
Imagine being a United fan and not thinking Scholes was ever World Class :lol::wenger:
It's hardly even worth arguing. Either they didnt actually watch Scholes regularly over his career, or you just can't take their opinion about football seriously. Guy is one of Uniteds all time best midfielders, definitely would be in the all time team in the premier league (since it became the premier league). That's world class. He doesnt have to have been as good as Zidane at his prime to be considered world class, that's just ridiculous. By that logic, there hasnt been a single world class player over the last decade other than Ronaldo and Messi because they were so far ahead of anyone.
 
golden_blunder said:
How can any United fan watch scholes consistently and not consider him world class? Just read the opinions of the players he played against to understand how good he was. They weren’t saying “oh I’d love Batty in this Barca team”.

If scholes wasn’t English and homegrown I dare say he’d be remembered more fondly
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What were his standout seasons and how did they compare to other midfielders at the time? you keep describing this "mythical player" who was simply not even recognised as the worlds best during his playing time. I simply pointed out that Batty may have outperformed him that season, just as Keane and Vieira did most seasons. Not my fault, he didn't have a marquee season in terms of his own performances. In what period would Scholes belong in the World X1, if he was world class?
 
rotherham_red said:
Lol, saying Scholes is overrated and then using Zidane, who is perhaps the most overrated player of his generation, as a comparator...
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Easy.... Zidane is one of the best midfielders of all time. Not at all overrated. The problem is saying he cant be world class because he wasnt as good as Zidane (ignoring Zidane his whole career played the position Scholes played when he was younger so they were different roles in their primes).
 
Saying Scholes was never world class is probably the worst point made in ManUtd/Football forum and we have lot of gems here.
 
I place him in the same tier as Xavi.
Xavi was a better organizer hands down, better at handling the ball than Scholes and faster to pick a pass, but Scholes had a wider range of skills in my opinion.
He was more combative in marking. His long ball was supernatural, having both range and speed with absolute precision. His shots were one of a kind and for a small guy he scored quite a few headers.
Both were the stuff legends are made of. I think it's pointless trying to argue which one is better because there's so little between them all things considered.
Also lol at people trying to make it look like Scholes was just "above average".
 
I think wether Scholes was world class or not can be best left to the comments of his fellow professionals.

Scholes on Scholes: When it's over I just want to be able to look in the mirror and say, 'Well, you were a half-decent player.'

Xavi Hernandez: Paul Scholes is a role model. For me – and I really mean this – he's the best central midfielder I've seen in the last 15, 20 years.

I've spoken to Xabi Alonso about him. He's spectacular, he has it all: the last pass, goals, he's strong, he doesn't lose the ball, vision. If he'd been Spanish he might have been rated more highly. Players love him.

Socrates (Brazil): Good enough to play for Brazil. I love to watch Scholes, to see him pass, the boy with the red hair and the red shirt.

Zinedine Zidane: My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder. Scholes is undoubtedly the greatest midfielder of his generation.

Marcello Lippi: Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team – that goes to show how highly I have always rated him. An all-round midfielder who possesses quality and character in abundance.

Laurent Blanc: I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player.

Sir Bobby Charlton: Many great players have worn the shirt of Manchester United. Players I worshipped, then lost with my youth in Munich.

Players like Denis Law and George Best who I enjoyed so much as team-mates and now, finally, players I have watched closely in the Alex Ferguson era. And in so many ways Scholes is my favourite.

Roy Keane: No celebrity bullshit, no self-promotion – an amazingly gifted player who remained an unaffected human being.

Sir Alex Ferguson: One of the greatest football brains Manchester United has ever had.

Edgar Davids: Everyone of us should emulate him. We can all learn from Paul Scholes.

Ryan Giggs: I’d go for Scholesy as the club’s greatest ever player. I’ve seen him do things that no other player can do. The way he can control the tempo of games, and his range of passing, are both incredible.

We’ve seen over the years that players just haven’t been able to get near him. And you can’t forget his goals either.

Cesc Fabregas: For any football player in the Premiership, Scholes is a player you want to emulate. One player does not make a team but there is no doubt that the presence of some players add extra motivation and confidence.

Scholes is a player with character and is capable of transmitting that mental strength to his team-mates.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...hat-the-games-greats-have-said-about-him.html

I think it's safe to say world class wasn't an exageration.
 
Lets start by leaving Zidane out of this, different caliber of player altogether. Scholes could pretty much hold his own against anybody else, fabulous player really. Technically, he was better than all his English peers. His game vision and passing technique were neigh on flawless. However he couldn't really defend.
 
11101 said:
As a second striker/attacking mid he was good but not great, as evidenced by being in and out of the team at times.

Once he moved back to midfield in 97 I think it was he was quickly established as a starter. It wasnt instant but before long he was indispensable, and as he got older and learned the position he was unrivalled for his ability to control a game. He was world class from 99 onwards.

He was good enough that when Veron arrived it was not to replace him but to help him move forward again. Once Veron left and he moved even further back he went from world class to one of the top 1 or 2 in the world.
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No. he did not actually want to play up top. He was forced out of position. He even went on strike and got fined for it as he was being left out of the team
 
Stacks said:
What were his standout seasons and how did they compare to other midfielders at the time? you keep describing this "mythical player" who was simply not even recognised as the worlds best during his playing time. I simply pointed out that Batty may have outperformed him that season, just as Keane and Vieira did most seasons. Not my fault, he didn't have a marquee season in terms of his own performances. In what period would Scholes belong in the World X1, if he was world class?
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2002/2003 and 2006/07 are the two standout seasons I'd say, but the first half of the 2000's was overall world class. Was he the absolute best around? No, doesnt have to be though. Though I guess if you're being pedantic on the definition of world class then it could be different for you. Each to their own, everyones allowed an opinion (no matter how wrong they are....).
 
Zlatattack said:
I think wether Scholes was world class or not can be best left to the comments of his fellow professionals.

Scholes on Scholes: When it's over I just want to be able to look in the mirror and say, 'Well, you were a half-decent player.'

Xavi Hernandez: Paul Scholes is a role model. For me – and I really mean this – he's the best central midfielder I've seen in the last 15, 20 years.

I've spoken to Xabi Alonso about him. He's spectacular, he has it all: the last pass, goals, he's strong, he doesn't lose the ball, vision. If he'd been Spanish he might have been rated more highly. Players love him.

Socrates (Brazil): Good enough to play for Brazil. I love to watch Scholes, to see him pass, the boy with the red hair and the red shirt.

Zinedine Zidane: My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder. Scholes is undoubtedly the greatest midfielder of his generation.

Marcello Lippi: Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team – that goes to show how highly I have always rated him. An all-round midfielder who possesses quality and character in abundance.

Laurent Blanc: I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player.

Sir Bobby Charlton: Many great players have worn the shirt of Manchester United. Players I worshipped, then lost with my youth in Munich.

Players like Denis Law and George Best who I enjoyed so much as team-mates and now, finally, players I have watched closely in the Alex Ferguson era. And in so many ways Scholes is my favourite.

Roy Keane: No celebrity bullshit, no self-promotion – an amazingly gifted player who remained an unaffected human being.

Sir Alex Ferguson: One of the greatest football brains Manchester United has ever had.

Edgar Davids: Everyone of us should emulate him. We can all learn from Paul Scholes.

Ryan Giggs: I’d go for Scholesy as the club’s greatest ever player. I’ve seen him do things that no other player can do. The way he can control the tempo of games, and his range of passing, are both incredible.

We’ve seen over the years that players just haven’t been able to get near him. And you can’t forget his goals either.

Cesc Fabregas: For any football player in the Premiership, Scholes is a player you want to emulate. One player does not make a team but there is no doubt that the presence of some players add extra motivation and confidence.

Scholes is a player with character and is capable of transmitting that mental strength to his team-mates.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...hat-the-games-greats-have-said-about-him.html

I think it's safe to say world class wasn't an exageration.
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We have been through this with other players and players have compared Gerrard to bloody Messi and Ronaldo so take it with a pinch of salt. All this tells me was that he was an excellent player

EDIT : none of these players included him in their team of the season or choose him as their outstanding player in any season when he performed which is very telling.
 
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bosnian_red said:
2002/2003 and 2006/07 are the two standout seasons I'd say, but the first half of the 2000's was overall world class. Was he the absolute best around? No, doesnt have to be though. Though I guess if you're being pedantic on the definition of world class then it could be different for you. Each to their own, everyones allowed an opinion (no matter how wrong they are....).
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Exactly. At any time only 1 player will be world class is just illogical. Going by that, we will have only 1 world class GK at any point. So who wasn't world class at their peak? Buffon, Casillas? There are probably half a dozen keepers in Italy in 90s who were class and then we had Great Dane.

After all that, Neuer, De Gea, Courtois all are world class, so is marc ter stegen
 
bosnian_red said:
2002/2003 and 2006/07 are the two standout seasons I'd say, but the first half of the 2000's was overall world class. Was he the absolute best around? No, doesnt have to be though. Though I guess if you're being pedantic on the definition of world class then it could be different for you. Each to their own, everyones allowed an opinion (no matter how wrong they are....).
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My definition of world class is "this player would not look out of place in the current world X 11. e.g. at their pomp, you could have either Bale or Robben at RW and there would be few complaints. You could have RVN/Henry/Raul/Shevchenko as your 9 and there would be few complaints because they were the very best in Europe/World at the time. You could put Canavaro there or Puyol, and it would not cause an uproar. In the 2000's you could have, Gerrard or Xavi or Iniesta and no one would bat and eyelid. I just feel that generally speaking, Scholes' seasons did not match up to that hype. He deffo was consistent and played atleast a 7 most games, but not too many 8's or seasons when he was one of the best around, despite a 20 year career. I can easily point out seasons when Gerrard was the best around, Lampard and even Cesc. you think I am wrong but none of Scholes peers were giving him the same recognition when he was actually playing
 
Stacks said:
My definition of world class is "this player would not look out of place in the current world X 11. e.g. at their pomp, you could have either Bale or Robben at RW and there would be few complaints. You could have RVN/Henry/Raul/Shevchenko as your 9 and there would be few complaints because they were the very best in Europe/World at the time. You could put Canavaro there or Puyol, and it would not cause an uproar. In the 2000's you could have, Gerrard or Xavi or Iniesta and no one would bat and eyelid. I just feel that generally speaking, Scholes' seasons did not match up to that hype. He deffo was consistent and played atleast a 7 most games, but not too many 8's or seasons when he was one of the best in the league, despite a 20 year career. I can easily point out seasons when Gerrard was the best around, Lampard and even Cesc. you think I am wrong but none of Scholes peers were giving him the same recognition when he was actually playing
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Not sure how you can say they were absolute best as none of them won Balon d'or except Sheva. Even Owen won it, so he was better than other 3 or had better season at his peal than other 3.
 
roonster09 said:
Not sure how you can say they were absolute best as none of them won Balon d'or except Sheva. Even Owen won it, so he was better than other 3 or had better season at his peal than other 3.
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Raul won European best striker almost every season, Henry was runner up world player of the year plenty of occasions, RVN has won UEFA best forward and made team of the year.
 
Stacks said:
My definition of world class is "this player would not look out of place in the current world X 11. e.g. at their pomp, you could have either Bale or Robben at RW and there would be few complaints. You could have RVN/Henry/Raul/Shevchenko as your 9 and there would be few complaints because they were the very best in Europe/World at the time. You could put Canavaro there or Puyol, and it would not cause an uproar. In the 2000's you could have, Gerrard or Xavi or Iniesta and no one would bat and eyelid. I just feel that generally speaking, Scholes' seasons did not match up to that hype. He deffo was consistent and played atleast a 7 most games, but not too many 8's or seasons when he was one of the best around, despite a 20 year career. I can easily point out seasons when Gerrard was the best around, Lampard and even Cesc. you think I am wrong but none of Scholes peers were giving him the same recognition when he was actually playing
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Well the 2 season I pointed out were better than anything Cesc has done and pretty much on par with peak Lampard/Gerrard. I always felt they had similar peaks for those 3 and they're all undoubtedly world class, Scholes had way more longevity and consistency over them though. Scholes in 2002/03 and 06/07 is definitely world class playing as 2 different roles, which elevates him further.
 
RooneyLegend said:
deary me
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bosnian_red said:
Easy.... Zidane is one of the best midfielders of all time. Not at all overrated. The problem is saying he cant be world class because he wasnt as good as Zidane (ignoring Zidane his whole career played the position Scholes played when he was younger so they were different roles in their primes).
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Go through the teams that Zidane played for internationally and in his club career in his prime. Was he ever the main man? I'm not talking about popping up with goals at important intervals, I'm talking having a real and genuine impact on the team's play from minute 1 to 90 consistently, week in and week out. Which is what his role as the 10 is presumably all about.

At Real he had the Galacticos, at Juve he was surrounded by a class team, while with France he was surrounded by the generation of all generations. People go on like he's in the tier of Cruyff, and Di Stefano, but IMO he isn't for me. Don't get me wrong, Zidane is definitely one of the best players of his generation but he wasn't clearly the best. I'd say Nedved and Riquelme were better for a start. What the latter did for Argentina and especially Villareal was the closest thing to a Maradona-level influence on a team that has been seen since the great man himself.

Zidane has gotten the reputation he has because in the late 90s and early noughties, it was trendy to say he was great rather than for his actual accomplishments which is fair enough considering TV coverage of Spain and Italy was nowhere near as proliferated as it has been in the last decade or so. Of course, he scored two goals in the WC final, and he scored a great volley in one of the most drab UCL finals in recent memory, but in terms of week in and week out influence over games, it was actually minimal. If anything, the closest player to him in the modern era is our very own Pogba, who gets the hate that Zidane seemingly never got despite both having clear ups and downs in consistent performances. If he was playing in the internet and social media age, he'd have just as many detractors than supporters, IMO.
 
Stacks said:
No. he did not actually want to play up top. He was forced out of position. He even went on strike and got fined for it as he was being left out of the team
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Because Ferguson wanted him to. It was his old position after all, and Veron at the time was one of the best midfielders on the planet. It shows that Scholes was up there by then as he wasn't straight up dropped, and ended up pushing Veron out of the team when it was clear he didn't fit.

I am saying by that time he was world class. Once Veron left and Scholes settled further back he moved up a notch to one of the very best of his generation.
 
Stacks said:
My definition of world class is "this player would not look out of place in the current world X 11. e.g. at their pomp, you could have either Bale or Robben at RW and there would be few complaints. You could have RVN/Henry/Raul/Shevchenko as your 9 and there would be few complaints because they were the very best in Europe/World at the time. You could put Canavaro there or Puyol, and it would not cause an uproar. In the 2000's you could have, Gerrard or Xavi or Iniesta and no one would bat and eyelid. I just feel that generally speaking, Scholes' seasons did not match up to that hype. He deffo was consistent and played atleast a 7 most games, but not too many 8's or seasons when he was one of the best around, despite a 20 year career. I can easily point out seasons when Gerrard was the best around, Lampard and even Cesc. you think I am wrong but none of Scholes peers were giving him the same recognition when he was actually playing
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Are you saying Scholes would look out of place in a world best XI? But Fabregas wouldn't?
 
rotherham_red said:
Zidane has gotten the reputation he has because in the late 90s and early noughties, it was trendy to say he was great rather than for his actual accomplishments which is fair enough considering TV coverage of Spain and Italy was nowhere near as proliferated as it has been in the last decade or so. Of course, he scored two goals in the WC final, and he scored a great volley in one of the most drab UCL finals in recent memory, but in terms of week in and week out influence over games, it was actually minimal. If anything, the closest player to him in the modern era is our very own Pogba, who gets the hate that Zidane seemingly never got despite both having clear ups and downs in consistent performances. If he was playing in the internet and social media age, he'd have just as many detractors than supporters, IMO.
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What you're saying is not popular, but it's very true. I remember that time period well, and on a match-to-match basis, Zidane was not near the level of dominance that you would expect given his reputation. What he did have was sublime touch and skill, and very good passing. He was always beautiful to watch, despite the fact that his impact on matches wasn't all that great. He was never prolific, and if you look at his goal stats they are not amazing even though they are padded in that he was usually the penalty taker for all his sides.

At the end of the day Zidane's legacy rests greatly on his performance in a handful of really important matches. Whether that's fair or not is a subjective matter. You could say the same about Maradona or any footballers that heightened their reputation in World Cups or major club tournaments. Zidane is remembered for the 2 goals in the 1998 final, but as you mention, the rest of that tournament he had very little impact and he was actually red-carded so didn't even play most of 2 matches for France. In 2006 he was brilliant, and it seemed fitting that after all those years he finally consolidated himself among the all-time greats, largely due to his performance in that tournament alone.
 
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