Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Paul the Wolf said:
But we're talking about Brexit and the main reason for Brexit is that the British people don't want foreigners in the UK, not only the illegal ones or those that don't have a right to stay but also the legal ones. That's what Brexit is about.
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Link to this please.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Hysterical? seems you don't know the meaning of the word.
You tell me and give me a link as to what it was for, this should be funny.
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This is very simple. You've stated something as fact and I'm asking you for something to back it up. Anything. Off you go.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
But we're talking about Brexit and the main reason for Brexit is that the British people don't want foreigners in the UK, not only the illegal ones or those that don't have a right to stay but also the legal ones. That's what Brexit is about.
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GloryHunter07 said:
Looks more like an oppinion tbh.
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There is nothing to suggest the above is an opinion.

Paul the Wolf said:
No you said that my opinion is wrong, so you prove me wrong, you have said I was wrong, back it up.
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No I didn't. I asked for some evidence to back up your sweeping statement. I accused you of making it up. You're right though to now walk it back and confess it as just an opinion because it can't be anything else. A prejudiced and bigoted opinion that ignores all evidence and research to the contrary ie the reasons for the Brexit vote are complex and multiple. That might not fit your narrative but it's just how it is. A brief and cursory search will provide that for you. In summary - you made it up.
 
Barca84 said:
There is nothing to suggest the above is an opinion.



No I didn't. I asked for some evidence to back up your sweeping statement. I accused you of making it up. You're right though to now walk it back and confess it as just an opinion because it can't be anything else. A prejudiced and bigoted opinion that ignores all evidence and research to the contrary ie the reasons for the Brexit vote are complex and multiple. That might not fit your narrative but it's just how it is. A brief and cursory search will provide that for you. In summary - you made it up.
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What? So what you are stating are facts and not your opinion, show me.

Ok let's play along with this, so Brexit does not mean the end of freedom of movement, good news, the UK can stay in the Single Market, there are no problems with the foreigners who are in the UK and as it has been proved these EU nationals benefit the economy of the UK. Strange that T May said the other day that people voted for the end of Freedom of Movement. Why would they want that?
Strange that no other country in the EU is concerned with other European people living in their country.
 
Barca84 said:
There is nothing to suggest the above is an opinion.



No I didn't. I asked for some evidence to back up your sweeping statement. I accused you of making it up. You're right though to now walk it back and confess it as just an opinion because it can't be anything else. A prejudiced and bigoted opinion that ignores all evidence and research to the contrary ie the reasons for the Brexit vote are complex and multiple. That might not fit your narrative but it's just how it is. A brief and cursory search will provide that for you. In summary - you made it up.
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I'll double down. Main reason for Brexit is no wanting foreginers, ilegal or ilegal AND even born brittish with a different skin colour

And that is just an example



And yes, is an opinion just in the extension of MAIN reason. Still is one of the reasons and for me as many others is the main reason as well. And there are many links, videos, articles and so on that You know I know you know exists
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Strange that no other country in the EU is concerned with other European people living in their country
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They are in NL, Not everyone but i have heard it 1st hand and mentioned it in this thread. I cannot speak for other eu countries but your statement is not correct.
 
Panics over, looks like Cameroon is returning to front line politics.

Next referendum, should the uk leave *.*? Yes or No
 
Paul the Wolf said:
What? So what you are stating are facts and not your opinion, show me.
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Already linked. Thanks @4bars :

http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Carl_Reasons_Voting.pdf

Your position is quite neatly touched upon in the summary. I expect you'll recognise it. Refusing to acknowledge that there are clearly identified multiple and complex reasons for the Brexit vote, including but absolutely not singularly due to issues of xenophobia, makes you sound as ill informed and prejudicial as a voting demographic you consistently demonise. Here's a basic wiki page for you that explores a lot of the contributing factors to the vote and I think you'd benefit from following up on some of the links in the references. It's actually fascinating stuff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_vote_in_favour_of_Brexit#Immigration

And finally Ashcroft's referendum day survey:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

Steven Seagull said:
Immigration concerns does not mean “British people don’t want foreigners in the UK”
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Here's the nub. According to 4bars paul et al it does. To "have immigration concerns" is viewed as no more than a thinly disguised euphemism for being racist and or xenophobic. No doubt it is for some but absolutely not for all.

Some required reading for anyone who thinks, like paul does, that "British people don't want foreigners in the UK":

http://nationalconversation.uk/wp-c...onversation-exec-summary-2018-09-v2-PRINT.pdf

which as Lisa Nandy correctly summarises "showed that across the divide there is a sensible, committed majority in Britain whose concern for decency, humanity, kindness and fairness echoes strongly. They not only demand, but deserve, a greater say in the future of their country and the power to build the ambitious, inclusive communities they long for"

Good reading if you can take your fingers out of your ears long enough to scroll through it.
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
Strange that no other country in the EU is concerned with other European people living in their country.
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We certainly haven't encountered any anti-British sentiment in our semi-rural, non-diverse village here in Italy. In fact, we feel welcomed. People seem to be happy that Brits and other Europeans are here - and this is not a sophisticated metropolis.

A friend of ours (British) who lives and works here had a family tragedy last year. The way local people rallied around him and his family was absolutely heart-warming. Their kindness and generosity was amazing.
 
Barca84 said:
Already linked. Thanks @4bars :

http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Carl_Reasons_Voting.pdf

Your position is quite neatly touched upon in the summary. I expect you'll recognise it. Refusing to acknowledge that there are clearly identified multiple and complex reasons for the Brexit vote, including but absolutely not singularly due to issues of xenophobia, makes you sound as ill informed and prejudicial as a voting demographic you consistently demonise. Here's a basic wiki page for you that explores a lot of the contributing factors to the vote and I think you'd benefit from following up on some of the links in the references. It's actually fascinating stuff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_vote_in_favour_of_Brexit#Immigration

And finally Ashcroft's referendum day survey:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/



Here's the nub. According to 4bars paul et al it does. To "have immigration concerns" is viewed as no more than a thinly disguised euphemism for being racist and or xenophobic. No doubt it is for some but absolutely not for all.

Some required reading for anyone who thinks, like paul does, that "British people don't want foreigners in the UK":

http://nationalconversation.uk/wp-c...onversation-exec-summary-2018-09-v2-PRINT.pdf

which as Lisa Nandy correctly summarises "showed that across the divide there is a sensible, committed majority in Britain whose concern for decency, humanity, kindness and fairness echoes strongly. They not only demand, but deserve, a greater say in the future of their country and the power to build the ambitious, inclusive communities they long for"

Good reading if you can take your fingers out of your ears long enough to scroll through it.
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Excellent, you do my work for me:

Quote from your quotes:
Most people want EU migration to be better managed Many of the concerns expressed in the citizens’ panels focused on migration from the EU. Participants felt that the UK government had little control over who came here and that they were unable to exclude those who presented a security risk or had unspent criminal convictions. There was very little understanding of the current free movement rules, with most of the citizens’ panels believing that EU nationals could move to the UK and have immediate- and for some, preferential- access to the welfare system.

As has been proved EU citizens give a benefit to the UK's economy. As your examples show they didn't know what they were voting for.
The UK has complete control over their borders, they're just not very good at managing them. That is not the EU's fault.
Most immigration is from outside the EU, are Brexiters getting confused?

I took my own poll of people who voted for and against Brexit. Staggering when people don't/can't lie.

Can we have a poll after people have taken the lie detector test?

What about immigration forcing up house prices/rent etc - I bought my first property in 1977, in 1981 I sold it for double what I paid for it, must have been all those Polish and Bulgarian immigrants.

Now let's assume there are other reasons:

Laws imposed by the EU that Brexiters were aware of - more than three years after the debate started you would have thought that at least one person out of 17.4 million could quote one, nope.

Sovereignty / parliament - They have no say? They can't vote to leave because they have no say and have to accept any deal the EU throws at them?oh the lies.
How many people voted for Theresa May, was she or Jeremy Corbyn on your ballot paper, how many of the House of Lords have you voted for.
Are you saying Brexiters don't understand how the EU works?

Blue passports, no wasn't even thought of at the time of the referendum.

What else is there, oh yes, the NHS - only this week the government have proved that the reason the NHS was short of funds, was their austerity programme which is now "over" but they're still in the EU and if they get transition will be for some time yet. Yet another falsehood.

Ah yes, leaving the customs union so they can make their own trade deals, so they voted to close the Irish border and cause untold damage to the freeflow of trade. Can we take a poll of how many Brexiters knew the customs union existed, what it means and what the consequences of leaving it are.

Maybe something else I've forgotten - so basically where are we now - it's either ignorance/stupidity or xenophobia - can't be racism because most Europeans are of the same race. Xenophobia is a branch of ignorance and stupidity.
 
Penna said:
We certainly haven't encountered any anti-British sentiment in our semi-rural, non-diverse village here in Italy. In fact, we feel welcomed. People seem to be happy that Brits and other Europeans are here - and this is not a sophisticated metropolis.

A friend of ours (British) who lives and works here had a family tragedy last year. The way local people rallied around him and his family was absolutely heart-warming. Their kindness and generosity was amazing.
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Exactly, I live in a similar environment, you couldn't feel more welcomed. They love the opportunity to share cultures of other people. A real community spirit, something I never experienced in all my life in the UK.
 
You have to be pretty naive to think anti-foreigner sentiment wasn't behind Brexit for the majority.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Excellent, you do my work for me:

Quote from your quotes:
Most people want EU migration to be better managed Many of the concerns expressed in the citizens’ panels focused on migration from the EU. Participants felt that the UK government had little control over who came here and that they were unable to exclude those who presented a security risk or had unspent criminal convictions. There was very little understanding of the current free movement rules, with most of the citizens’ panels believing that EU nationals could move to the UK and have immediate- and for some, preferential- access to the welfare system.

As has been proved EU citizens give a benefit to the UK's economy. As your examples show they didn't know what they were voting for.
The UK has complete control over their borders, they're just not very good at managing them. That is not the EU's fault.
Most immigration is from outside the EU, are Brexiters getting confused?

I took my own poll of people who voted for and against Brexit. Staggering when people don't/can't lie.

Can we have a poll after people have taken the lie detector test?

What about immigration forcing up house prices/rent etc - I bought my first property in 1977, in 1981 I sold it for double what I paid for it, must have been all those Polish and Bulgarian immigrants.

Now let's assume there are other reasons:

Laws imposed by the EU that Brexiters were aware of - more than three years after the debate started you would have thought that at least one person out of 17.4 million could quote one, nope.

Sovereignty / parliament - They have no say? They can't vote to leave because they have no say and have to accept any deal the EU throws at them?oh the lies.
How many people voted for Theresa May, was she or Jeremy Corbyn on your ballot paper, how many of the House of Lords have you voted for.
Are you saying Brexiters don't understand how the EU works?

Blue passports, no wasn't even thought of at the time of the referendum.

What else is there, oh yes, the NHS - only this week the government have proved that the reason the NHS was short of funds, was their austerity programme which is now "over" but they're still in the EU and if they get transition will be for some time yet. Yet another falsehood.

Ah yes, leaving the customs union so they can make their own trade deals, so they voted to close the Irish border and cause untold damage to the freeflow of trade. Can we take a poll of how many Brexiters knew the customs union existed, what it means and what the consequences of leaving it are.

Maybe something else I've forgotten - so basically where are we now - it's either ignorance/stupidity or xenophobia - can't be racism because most Europeans are of the same race. Xenophobia is a branch of ignorance and stupidity.
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Most of the above I'm not debating with you and I agree on. So we have a lot of your usual waffle and deflection here that has zero relation to why I took you to task re your continued sweeping and incorrect statements re the Brexit demographic. I think the bolded part though is particularly illuminating. You're a man who decries this entire vote as ignorant and stupid but prefers to rely on his own ad hoc poll of a handful of people over substantial and accepted research? Really? And you continually repeat this assertion that the leavers are just lying? I can only assume you must have some sort of anecdotal impetus for this train of thought that everyone is really a card carrying racist? Surely it's more than a handful of conversations over a glass of red? Share your reasons and let's weigh them against what the research and the intelligence that's in the public domain tells us?

Campaigns such as Hope not Hate work because they seek to bridge that divide between the entrenched of which you are one and will remain until you at least make some attempt to understand the other.
 
Smores said:
You have to be pretty naive to think anti-foreigner sentiment wasn't behind Brexit for the majority.
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Xenophobia and ignorance were factors in my opinion. However another major factor was the impact of the economic crash a decade ago has had on the perception that many people are less well off now and that the general way forward is downwards rather than ever upwards. Instead of blaming the banks, etc. and those that actually caused the mess a lot of people believed the narrative that it was immigration that was making things worse.

Aside from this - the UK is an island nation and has never fully embraced Europe in the same way mainland countries have - it's in our nature due to geography.
 
balaks said:
Xenophobia and ignorance were factors in my opinion. However another major factor was the impact of the economic crash a decade ago has had on the perception that many people are less well off now and that the general way forward is downwards rather than ever upwards. Instead of blaming the banks, etc. and those that actually caused the mess a lot of people believed the narrative that it was immigration that was making things worse.
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Absolutely, deflected blame was part of that anti-foreigner sentiment rather than just pure racism. Xenophobia is usually a fairer description for the majority.

Think this place has already gone back and forth multiple times on the polls, there's as many either way but they nearly all disguise reasons. Most will not tick a box that puts themselves into a bad reflection, it's always wrapped up in false logic born out of the emotion first.

Over recent days it's been the same with Trump voters who say on camera they don't like Trumps behaviour but they like the economy or some other bollocks so they'll vote for them. It's exactly why we have the shy tory/republican in every election throwing the polls off.
 
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Smores said:
You have to be pretty naive to think anti-foreigner sentiment wasn't behind Brexit for the majority.
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Why? I'd say the xenophobic, and the outright racist, would be represented in those surveyed who stated they voted leave due to immigration concerns. Do you believe people can have concerns over immigration and not be xenophobic or outright racist? If not why not? And just to recap I'm pulling this fella up on this wild statement here..

Paul the Wolf said:
the main reason for Brexit is that the British people don't want foreigners in the UK, not only the illegal ones or those that don't have a right to stay but also the legal ones. That's what Brexit is about.
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and providing him with all the research to the contrary. He's done his own poll though.......
 
balaks said:
Xenophobia and ignorance were factors in my opinion. However another major factor was the impact of the economic crash a decade ago has had on the perception that many people are less well off now and that the general way forward is downwards rather than ever upwards. Instead of blaming the banks, etc. and those that actually caused the mess a lot of people believed the narrative that it was immigration that was making things worse.

Aside from this - the UK is an island nation and has never fully embraced Europe in the same way mainland countries have - it's in our nature due to geography.
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Agree with all of this except the bolded part. It's a reality for many and not a perception.
 
Barca84 said:
Why? I'd say the xenophobic, and the outright racist, would be represented in those surveyed who stated they voted leave due to immigration concerns. Do you believe people can have concerns over immigration and not be xenophobic or outright racist? If not why not? And just to recap I'm pulling this fella up on this wild statement here..



and providing him with all the research to the contrary. He's done his own poll though.......
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I think a demographic very defensive of appearing racist or xenophobic find a more palatable reason which is hard to capture in very basic polling, however the main polls completely failed in their questions or purposefully wanted a set outcome.

You could of course hate foreigners but see housing or the economy as the more justifiable reason and thus vote that as your reason. Thus a ranked order or main reason poll is meaningless as a defence of immigration sentiment.

I've yet to see a sentiment based poll with a scoring across each category which is what should be done. You'd still have those shy about their true feelings or those who cover up but at least then you'd see someone scoring a 10 on say housing also scored 9 on immigration and not have someone picking up the data and saying "oh he actually voted Brexit because of housing".
 
Barca84 said:
Most of the above I'm not debating with you and I agree on. So we have a lot of your usual waffle and deflection here that has zero relation to why I took you to task re your continued sweeping and incorrect statements re the Brexit demographic. I think the bolded part though is particularly illuminating. You're a man who decries this entire vote as ignorant and stupid but prefers to rely on his own ad hoc poll of a handful of people over substantial and accepted research? Really? And you continually repeat this assertion that the leavers are just lying? I can only assume you must have some sort of anecdotal impetus for this train of thought that everyone is really a card carrying racist? Surely it's more than a handful of conversations over a glass of red? Share your reasons and let's weigh them against what the research and the intelligence that's in the public domain tells us?

Campaigns such as Hope not Hate work because they seek to bridge that divide between the entrenched of which you are one and will remain until you at least make some attempt to understand the other.
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I have listed all the other possible reasons. So if I accept that I am wrong in my opinion, then the only alternative is that you are saying Brexiters are ignorant. And no I'm not basing my opinion on my own poll, I have had the same opinion throughout this farce.
I have not said they are racist but xenophobic. You don't seem to understand the difference.
 
The funny thing is that, Brexit is the only thing keeping her in a job.
I don't know how a failed Home Sec gets to become PM.
Under normal circumstances, the Windrush, which happened under her watch should have buried her .
 
balaks said:
Xenophobia and ignorance were factors in my opinion. However another major factor was the impact of the economic crash a decade ago has had on the perception that many people are less well off now and that the general way forward is downwards rather than ever upwards. Instead of blaming the banks, etc. and those that actually caused the mess a lot of people believed the narrative that it was immigration that was making things worse.

Aside from this - the UK is an island nation and has never fully embraced Europe in the same way mainland countries have - it's in our nature due to geography.
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Barca84 said:
Agree with all of this except the bolded part. It's a reality for many and not a perception.
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You'll tie yourself up in a knot in a minute if you're not careful.
 
Adisa said:
The funny thing is that, Brexit is the only thing keeping her in a job.
I don't know how a failed Home Sec gets to become PM.
Under normal circumstances, the Windrush, which happened under her watch should have buried her .
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The alternatives seem to be even worse. BJ or JRM.
 
Smores said:
I think a demographic very defensive of appearing racist or xenophobic find a more palatable reason which is hard to capture in very basic polling, however the main polls completely failed in their questions or purposefully wanted a set outcome.

You could of course hate foreigners but see housing or the economy as the more justifiable reason and thus vote that as your reason. Thus a ranked order or main reason poll is meaningless as a defence of immigration sentiment.

I've yet to see a sentiment based poll with a scoring across each category which is what should be done. You'd still have those shy about their true feelings or those who cover up but at least then you'd see someone scoring a 10 on say housing also scored 9 on immigration and not have someone picking up the data and saying "oh he actually voted Brexit because of housing".
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As linked above there's some interesting stuff re this in here..

http://nationalconversation.uk/wp-c...onversation-exec-summary-2018-09-v2-PRINT.pdf

Some of the summary findings:

"Most people who have taken part in the citizens’ panels are what we have termed ‘balancers’, who see both the pressures and gains of immigration"

It's perfectly legitimate to have concerns over immigration whilst seeing the gains of it and not being xenophobic or racist.

"Face-to-face discussion is different to the online debate on immigration"

Here everything is so polarised as we see in this thread eg everyone is racist/thick/ignorant. The debate in the community is different.

"Contribution, control and fairness were common themes"

While the citizens’ panels wanted immigration to be controlled, they also wanted the system to be fair, both to migrants and to receiving communities. There was also a consensus that migrants and refugees must be treated fairly and humanely. No-one in the citizens’ panels wanted law-abiding EU nationals who were presently living in the UK to be asked to return home after the UK left the EU.

None of this fits the narrative of the majority in this thread and lays a lie to the claim made upthread that I initially took objection to.

Clear anti-muslim attitudes are highlighted though and in particular since the last series of terror attacks. That's the worrying bit.
 
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