Wisconsin teens participate in Nazi salute

Already covered this entire line of reasoning in older posts but "innocently participating" in sieg heils. okay.

"Stand here. Squeeze closer together. Raise your right arm at 45 degrees. Say cheese".

Not saying this is what happened, but it's completely possible to be an "innocent participant" in raising your arm up like this. You should check out some social conformity experiments, they could be pretty eye opening.

I'd go so far as to say that the instructions could have been "Let's do a Nazi salute to show the world we are all Nazi's" and there would still be kind, decent, impressionable people who would participate.
 
Ok. So that last tweet supposedly proves someone made them all throw it up, and brags about even making a black kid do it? Who does that?

I'd go so far as to say that the instructions could have been "Let's do a Nazi salute to show the world we are all Nazi's" and there would still be kind, decent, impressionable people who would participate.
I just don't think he gets it. It is like gang-culture, its not like all black people who join gangs are savages at first and he should know this, but I guess he couldn't have empathy with them because "they are just criminals" in a gang.
 
Very hard to judge them all.

Some would fall into the hardcore racist bigot, some could just be going along for the ride, some of them are probably pressured to follow the alpha.

We've been to highschool. Peer pressure from a group of rich kid with powers can be misguiding.
 
Ok. So that last tweet supposedly proves someone made them all throw it up, and brags about even making a black kid do it? Who does that?


I just don't think he gets it. It is like gang-culture, its not like all black people who join gangs are savages at first and he should know this, but I guess he couldn't have empathy with them because "they are just criminals" in a gang.

What exactly is this about?
 
Think about like this: if you are deciding on a scholarship or admissions to a university you care about, do you want someone who demonstrates leadership and free thinking or someone who uses "I was just following" as an excuse?
I feel like a big part of the ethical debate from WWII was about the whole "I was just following orders" and does being only a follower absolve of blame? I know at University's with fraternities that have harsh hazing histories this question is very pertinent (there was just a report of an 18 year old dying in hazing incident this week). Some universities need to change their admission system to take things like this into account and how the emotional immaturity of 'just following' might affect a campus population that already struggles with issues like frat hazing.

That's a lot packed into a few questions!

I agree with your view on tackling frat culture. That's probably a good justification to turn someone down from this incident. However the person you're choosing instead of them could easily be another follower and eventual participant in the same culture.

Most people are followers, and most people in frats aren't bad people by default. They are bad people in those environments, sure, but everything else is a bit murky.

The rest of it I think is much more complicated than you're saying. I don't think you should be choosing leaders over followers in university admissions. Followers are more vulnerable to environmental pressures and end up doing things like this, sure, but they have lots of other very positive qualities for universities to embrace.

The ethical debate about WWII and the social experiments based on them like the Milgram experiment left a whole lot of unanswered questions, in my view.
 
Ok. So that last tweet supposedly proves someone made them all throw it up, and brags about even making a black kid do it? Who does that?


I just don't think he gets it. It is like gang-culture, its not like all black people who join gangs are savages at first and he should know this, but I guess he couldn't have empathy with them because "they are just criminals" in a gang.

It’s crazy how you’ve just generalised black people joining gangs, then went on and called them savages.

The subconscious is really showing here, I’m not even sure you did it intentionally, which is the really fascinating part.
 
Showing the Nazi salute and denying the Holocaust are crimes in Germany. The maximum punishment is 5 years in prison, although that is practically never enforced. Most punishments are like paying 4000 € to some NGO, doing social work for several months and getting a suspended sentence of 1-3 years.

In my opinion every country should have those laws, just so that no one can excuse those people by saying „it‘s not a crime, you can‘t punish them based on nothing“. Embracing Nazi culture and denying the Holocaust is not „nothing“.
 
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If some of them are consistent racist shitbags like on those twitter posts on the first page then sure, I'm all for it. Ruin their futures at will.

Have some of you considered the possibility that there could be good young people on that photo who just got caught up making a bad decision in a moment they weren't thinking right though?

I mean, ruin all their lives just because of a mistake they committed when they were young and stupid? How many of us would deserve to have their lives ruined then? Isn't that a bit much?

The irony is that most of the people calling for everyone's head on that pic will also be the first ones to cry about not tarring everyone with the same brush.

Young kids sometimes make mistakes, people. No need to ruin their lives just for the sport.

Young people definitely make mistakes and I am a huge proponent of giving people a second chance (though I would say the opportunities for this are heavily biased towards white people in our societies, though that is a conversation for another time).

However, I will go back to my earlier post in the thread.

A similar picture comes out from an Islamic school. Say in Pakistan, London, Dearborn, wherever you want to say. And the kids are holding up ISIS flags. They all claim after it is a joke, though rumours start coming out that maybe the school allows some pretty shady behaviour.

Would you be as willing to forget? And say its just young kids making one bad decision?
 
A university reserves the right to reject student throwing Nazi salutes. What the feck is the problem here?
That's far from ruining someone's life.
 
Young people definitely make mistakes and I am a huge proponent of giving people a second chance (though I would say the opportunities for this are heavily biased towards white people in our societies, though that is a conversation for another time).

However, I will go back to my earlier post in the thread.

A similar picture comes out from an Islamic school. Say in Pakistan, London, Dearborn, wherever you want to say. And the kids are holding up ISIS flags. They all claim after it is a joke, though rumours start coming out that maybe the school allows some pretty shady behaviour.

Would you be as willing to forget? And say its just young kids making one bad decision?

Excellent example.
 


Looking at that picture it's clear not all the kids participated, a handful didn't join in. However has anyone noticed the little cnut in the front row, black suit and red tie, the one not throwing the Nazi salute but instead showing the White Power hand gesture?

Nasty little prick.
 
It’s crazy how you’ve just generalised black people joining gangs, then went on and called them savages.

The subconscious is really showing here, I’m not even sure you did it intentionally, which is the really fascinating part.
You are allowed to dive deeper into this with me if you want to, If've done something wrong here I would like to know. Also, if you misunderstood something and got offended I would like you to know that too. Care to explain why my example was wrong? Was it the wording that was offensive?
 
A similar picture comes out from an Islamic school. Say in Pakistan, London, Dearborn, wherever you want to say. And the kids are holding up ISIS flags. They all claim after it is a joke, though rumours start coming out that maybe the school allows some pretty shady behaviour.

Would you be as willing to forget? And say its just young kids making one bad decision?
I'll bet the media wouldn't give you a natural opportunity to think of it that way, but of course the answer is yes. Those kids could be innocent. It is a good example, but I don't see why you would think muslim kids shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt in your example:wenger: Surely those orchestrating them, pushing them and allows these things to grow in school are most responsible.
 
Looking at that picture it's clear not all the kids participated, a handful didn't join in. However has anyone noticed the little cnut in the front row, black suit and red tie, the one not throwing the Nazi salute but instead showing the White Power hand gesture?

Nasty little prick.
As far as I can tell that’s not the white power sign. That’s that thing people do where they do that sign on their leg and if you look at it you lose and they get to punch you on the arm.
 
You are allowed to dive deeper into this with me if you want to, If've done something wrong here I would like to know. Also, if you misunderstood something and got offended I would like you to know that too. Care to explain why my example was wrong? Was it the wording that was offensive?

You don’t see anything wrong with the assumption and implication that only black people join gangs, as used in your example?
 
part of the reason why there are places where the culture allows large groups of men to throw up nazi salutes, white power signs, be racist over long periods of time and be sexually abusive is because they know when push come to shove, a lot of people will side with them, see this thread, see their administrators actions when racist abuse was reported
 
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it's become a white power sign in recent years
A few of my mates do stuff like this from time to time, just dicking about. Granted, they’ve never been surrounded by 100 people doing a Nazi salute...
 
You don’t see anything wrong with the assumption and implication that only black people join gangs, as used in your example?
Unless my wording has confused you I'm sorry to say there is no assumption or implication of that in what I said. If I thought black people were the only ones who joined gangs I would be very factually stupid, why did you assume I was that stupid? If you could comprehend what my point was, you shouldn't have said that.
 
Unless my wording has confused you I'm sorry to say there is no assumption or implication of that in what I said. If I thought black people were the only ones who joined gangs I would be very factually stupid, why did you assume I was that stupid? If you could comprehend what my point was, you shouldn't have said that.

Okay let me explain it like this, because I comprehend what you said quite easily.
Your point didn’t need to be broken down by race. Your point was that not everyone who joins a gang is a criminal to begin with, but due to peer pressure they can be pressured into doing criminal things, and you’re trying to compare that to these boys throwing up the Nazi sign only doing so because of peer pressure.
The problem with your example is that you explicitly used only black people;
its not like all black people who join gangs are savages at first

The underlying implication of that is, that it comes across like you are implying that only black people join gangs, then the term ‘savages’ has particular connotations with animalistic behaviour, which, when generalising groups of black people is also problematic.

Do you see what I’m saying now?
 
I'll bet the media wouldn't give you a natural opportunity to think of it that way, but of course the answer is yes. Those kids could be innocent. It is a good example, but I don't see why you would think muslim kids shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt in your example:wenger: Surely those orchestrating them, pushing them and allows these things to grow in school are most responsible.

I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt, I'm saying they would not be given the benefit of the doubt by most people, including, I'd imagine, many of the people on here.

If you would be an exception to that, then fair enough and I at least respect the consistency.
 
Unless my wording has confused you I'm sorry to say there is no assumption or implication of that in what I said. If I thought black people were the only ones who joined gangs I would be very factually stupid, why did you assume I was that stupid? If you could comprehend what my point was, you shouldn't have said that.

Then the question is why mention black people in the first place at all?

Whites, Asians, Indians, Arabs, latinos whatever, can all join gangs.

Why mention gang culture.... And then bring up black people joining gangs? What was the relevance of colour there?
 
it's really hard to imagine why someone who thinks a large group of people throwing up a sig heil can be an innocent mistake would single out black gangs, i really wish i could comprehend what it could mean
 
it's really hard to imagine why someone who thinks a large group of people throwing up a sig heil can be an innocent mistake would single out black gangs, i really wish i could comprehend what it could mean

I actually visit this thread as its active and think its because of an update news wise.

I didn't actually think that there are some who think it's a silly mistake and shouldn't be seriously dealt with? If that's what you're implying that is.

These guys are teens but they're not young. They are old enough to know what's good and what's bad. They should be aware of the reprucssions.
 
Then the question is why mention black people in the first place at all?

Whites, Asians, Indians, Arabs, latinos whatever, can all join gangs.

Why mention gang culture.... And then bring up black people joining gangs? What was the relevance of colour there?
It isn't a reference to colour in itself, it was an innocent example, a reference to how you can't judge everyone in one particular group as the same even if they are in the same gang, or if they come from the same place. They might end up in that situation against their will.

I could have said hispanic instead of black and ya'll would have told me my point was that I excluded black people in the example because I thought what I said didn't apply to them, and don't have empathy with them, only hispanics. Reaching a bit I feel.

@villain So it was mostly the word savage that caused the misunderstanding then? You see, I'm not always the best at making sure I come across correctly. I didn't connect that word in any sense with colour. My point weren't exactly to compare gang-culture to these kids behaviour, especially not to excuse it if you try to imply that, but more the hypocrisy in empathy for each instance. That is why I didn't just write people but chose to pick a group. It isn't a crime to say black people have joined gangs, and some of them are indeed savages and evil people. To me that doesn't mean all gang-members are the same, even if they do throw up the gangsigns.
 
It isn't a reference to colour in itself, it was an innocent example, a reference to how you can't judge everyone in one particular group as the same even if they are in the same gang, or if they come from the same place. They might end up in that situation against their will.

I could have said hispanic instead of black and ya'll would have told me my point was that I excluded black people in the example because I thought what I said didn't apply to them, and don't have empathy with them, only hispanics. Reaching a bit I feel.

@villain So it was mostly the word savage that caused the misunderstanding then? You see, I'm not always the best at making sure I come across correctly. I didn't connect that word in any sense with colour. My point weren't exactly to compare gang-culture to these kids behaviour, especially not to excuse it if you try to imply that, but more the hypocrisy in empathy for each instance. That is why I didn't just write people but chose to pick a group. It isn't a crime to say black people have joined gangs, and some of them are indeed savages and evil people. To me that doesn't mean all gang-members are the same, even if they do throw up the gangsigns.

No, savages was just the icing on the cake.
Like I & @africanspur said, there’s literally no reason for you to reference race when you bring up gangs. And if you had mentioned any other race, I still would’ve pointed out that there was no reason to reference race.
In fact, assuming that you thought in your mind that we would’ve thought you excluded black people, if you had only mentioned Hispanic people, is still you implying that black people and gangs are synonymous with each other.

What you’re not getting at is, that your subconscious led you to a place where you associated gang members with black people - this is the crux of the problem.
And I still don’t think you understand why.

Your point could’ve been made without referencing race, since your point was about gang members, not black people.
 
It isn't a reference to colour in itself, it was an innocent example, a reference to how you can't judge everyone in one particular group as the same even if they are in the same gang, or if they come from the same place. They might end up in that situation against their will.

I could have said hispanic instead of black and ya'll would have told me my point was that I excluded black people in the example because I thought what I said didn't apply to them, and don't have empathy with them, only hispanics. Reaching a bit I feel.

@villain So it was mostly the word savage that caused the misunderstanding then? You see, I'm not always the best at making sure I come across correctly. I didn't connect that word in any sense with colour. My point weren't exactly to compare gang-culture to these kids behaviour, especially not to excuse it if you try to imply that, but more the hypocrisy in empathy for each instance. That is why I didn't just write people but chose to pick a group. It isn't a crime to say black people have joined gangs, and some of them are indeed savages and evil people. To me that doesn't mean all gang-members are the same, even if they do throw up the gangsigns.

No, I and other black people do not always think there should be a reference to black people in everything people say and I'm not sure how you think that is an adequate response. I would have thought you'd excluded black people and that I therefore would no longer be able to properly understand the situation because I can only empathise with blacks? Why would you think that?

Look, I don't think you're a racist or anything like this, which I imagine is what you're taking our comments to mean. I don't even think you meant anything by it or had any idea that you were saying anything that might be perceived in a certain way. I imagine it was all very sub consciously. Which I find more interesting than offensive if I'm frank.

But, in a thread about white guys throwing up a salute for one of the most overtly racist and pro caucasian white ideologies in history, a thread which really has nothing to do with black people, the only real time they're brought up as a group is....in the same context as gang culture. I mean, really? Can you not see why that is problematic?

The reality is that your point has nothing to do with race and it should not have been included in that sentence. Your ultimate point was that surely some of us would not want all gang members just condemned? They're not all terrible people, some of them just had a hard lot in life, fell into the wrong crowd and couldn't get out. Surely they deserve a second chance?

A very commendable outlook. But one that has literally nothing to do with colour. It is strange to bring a colour as an example into that and frankly more strange to imply that a) it needed a colour attached to it to make sense and b) that the likes of villain and I would only be able to fully understand and empathise if black was used in the example and we'd be somehow upset if you used latinos (side note, it would also be weird if you used Latinos or Arabs or Whites or whatever).

And I think it goes without saying that some black people join gangs and some black people are savages and evil people, just the same as every racial group. It is however not a crime to suggest that anywhere.
 
Young people definitely make mistakes and I am a huge proponent of giving people a second chance (though I would say the opportunities for this are heavily biased towards white people in our societies, though that is a conversation for another time).

However, I will go back to my earlier post in the thread.

A similar picture comes out from an Islamic school. Say in Pakistan, London, Dearborn, wherever you want to say. And the kids are holding up ISIS flags. They all claim after it is a joke, though rumours start coming out that maybe the school allows some pretty shady behaviour.

Would you be as willing to forget? And say its just young kids making one bad decision?
Of course ffs. Same as with these kids. If you are sure the kid is a little hateful racist cnut then go ahead and punish them accordingly. Altough I do believe that kids that young can always turn it around and see where they went wrong, as we're often a product of our surroundings. But that's also for another thread.

But if we're totally sure that the kid in question got caught up in a one off moment of madness where they made a stupid decision, then why this need to ruin their whole future based on a snapshot (literally) of their life? No matter what religion, ethnicity or background the kid has.

Don't we all make mistakes sometimes? Especially growing up when we're often surrounded by douchebags? I know I did. But you cut these bad people from your life and you learn from it.

Like adex already said earlier, me too I'm glad I didn't grow up in a time where everyone around you is a cameraman and the public's need for blood is so big. We're trying so hard to create the perfect world so future generations won't experience any adversity growing up, that they'll somehow even be more fecked up I think. Only time will tell.
 
Of course ffs. Same as with these kids. If you are sure the kid is a little hateful racist cnut then go ahead and punish them accordingly. Altough I do believe that kids that young can always turn it around and see where they went wrong, as we're often a product of our surroundings. But that's also for another thread.

But if we're totally sure that the kid in question got caught up in a one off moment of madness where they made a stupid decision, then why this need to ruin their whole future based on a snapshot (literally) of their life? No matter what religion, ethnicity or background the kid has.

Don't we all make mistakes sometimes? Especially growing up when we're often surrounded by douchebags? I know I did. But you cut these bad people from your life and you learn from it.

Like adex already said earlier, me too I'm glad I didn't grow up in a time where everyone around you is a cameraman and the public's need for blood is so big. We're trying so hard to create the perfect world so future generations won't experience any adversity growing up, that they'll somehow even be more fecked up I think. Only time will tell.
read the thread kid, they have a history of racist behaviour
 
If your friends jump off a bridge, and you jump off too - it’s not your fault