Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
On the plus side, we now know there are at least 56 idiots we can convince to eat rat poison by telling them it's 'Albion Fuel'
Cheese means cheese.
The language this morning seems to be spinning the inevitable amendments to the withdrawal deal as a government idea rather than a loss
See Theresa May is urging MPs not to ask for a second referendum as this will "Break faith with the British people":
“Let us not break faith with the British people by trying to stage another referendum,” the prime minister will tell MPs. “Another vote which would do irreparable damage to the integrity of our politics, because it would say to millions who trusted in democracy, that our democracy does not deliver. Another vote which would likely leave us no further forward than the last.”
I think this would be a fair point IF she (or anyone) could deliver the BREXIT that most people were promised before they voted; the one most rational (non-racist) people based their decision on that would make everyone better off, plow £350m a week back into the NHS, restrict immigration but not trade, blah-blah-blah BUT that was a lie!
Following that lie unquestioningly to it's bitter end is where democracy betrayed the people of Britain … not someone saying "now you have seen a fraction of what a real BREXIT might look like how do you all feel now?"
Surely, if people have adjusted their opinions given the established reality, allowing them to voice that before it's too late is the very embodiment of democracy at work?
“Let us not break faith with the British people by trying to stage another referendum,” the prime minister will tell MPs. “Another vote which would do irreparable damage to the integrity of our politics, because it would say to millions who trusted in democracy, that our democracy does not deliver. Another vote which would likely leave us no further forward than the last.”
I think this would be a fair point IF she (or anyone) could deliver the BREXIT that most people were promised before they voted; the one most rational (non-racist) people based their decision on that would make everyone better off, plow £350m a week back into the NHS, restrict immigration but not trade, blah-blah-blah BUT that was a lie!
Following that lie unquestioningly to it's bitter end is where democracy betrayed the people of Britain … not someone saying "now you have seen a fraction of what a real BREXIT might look like how do you all feel now?"
Surely, if people have adjusted their opinions given the established reality, allowing them to voice that before it's too late is the very embodiment of democracy at work?
Theresa May literally thinks the British public is stupid.
I don’t think May believes any of that guff. It’s more the case that a second referendum may lead to the break up of the Conservative Party and she doesn’t want that happening on her watch.
If there was another referendum and the majority wanted to remain how is that undemocratic? By listening too much to the people?
If there's one thing that the british people don't want it's the conservative party breaking up.
The economy isn't worth that. Nice to see tory politicians putting the peoples interests first as usual
I think the problem is if the vote is 52% remain to 48% leave or close , if another referendum happened at the vote was as close as the last vote but the other way I honestly think we'd see riots and I'd fear for the safety of anyone who isn't a white British national.
I just think we should leave but still be in the EEC and allow free movement of people, yeah hardline brexiters would be up in arms but so what, they're a minority.
If a mini-riot like the bradford riots are the price to pay then bring it on. It would only be the EDL types, you arrest them and move on.
We can't proceed with two situations that no majority wants (deal and no deal) because of the ill thought out principle that a referendum mandate is absolute with no end date. Or because the Tories and May don't want their reputation tarnished.
Obviously it's undemocratic to call referendums for things when the result is then not adhered to. You can desperately want to stay in the EU and that's sensible and fine but you can't deny that going back to the public with a referendum whenever you dont like the current result makes a mockery of referendums, and will completely erode the public faith in them.
A second referendum would likely end in another near-stalemate. Except it wouldn't because they'd probably spend months arguing over the number of options (what happens if the new result is 20% leave with no deal, 31% leave with May's deal, 49% remain... for instance??) and all in all would be a massive time sink.
Even if there were just two options and it ended 51% for remain what do people honestly think would happen? Like you can't be naive enough to think there wouldn't be total and utter chaos. Could you deny the Brexiters if they said the result wasn't strong enough? Any government would be forced into a yet another "deciding" Brexit vote within one or two years.
A second referendum would likely end in another near-stalemate. Except it wouldn't because they'd probably spend months arguing over the number of options (what happens if the new result is 20% leave with no deal, 31% leave with May's deal, 49% remain... for instance??) and all in all would be a massive time sink.
Even if there were just two options and it ended 51% for remain what do people honestly think would happen? Like you can't be naive enough to think there wouldn't be total and utter chaos. Could you deny the Brexiters if they said the result wasn't strong enough? Any government would be forced into a yet another "deciding" Brexit vote within one or two years.
Utter bollocks, the views of a country change it's not undemocratic to check whether that's the case especially given what was voted on hasn't been delivered. That's how our political system works. I wouldn't be against another referendum in 10 years but it would need to be on the same deal.
And yes 51% would obviously be enough and would pass parliament immediately.
No-one is suggesting that the vote be retaken until it suits a certain outcome. that is ridiculous. You are simply trying to gee up righteous indignation where there is none to be had.
The country were told basic lies and went to the polls and based their votes upon the "facts" given to them by trusted experts. Now it is patently obvious that they were misled and that the only possible options for BREXIT in no way or form resemble the one they were asked to vote for in 2016 (as that is impossible to deliver) a large proportion of rational leave voters are rightly unhappy and feel that democracy has let them down.
Giving them a chance to inform the government how they feel now the facts have come to light is certainly not undemocratic.
Lets be honest the original referendum result wasn't strong enough to justify such a massive decision that would cause so much upheaval. How many idiots voted in protest at the government in 2016 that could have swung the vote to leave?
Any referendum of that magnitude should have needed at least a 60% threshold to pass.
Proving that at least this one time she's not actually wrong.
I think it would be far more than mini riots.
We've had a referendum, lets go with the least worst option that suits both sides, there has to be compromise now, May kowtowing to the hard brexiteers in the Tory party is doing nobody any good, just tell them to eff off.
I'm sure the millions of pensioners rampaging through the post offices of the country would indeed be terrifying..
https://www.joe.ie/news/english-newspaper-claims-theresa-may-loathes-leo-varadkar-652049
Theres not too many likes him Theresa to be fair.
Theres not too many likes him Theresa to be fair.
What integrity?
So, Remain and use controls on migration allowed under EU laws?
I will not accept a compromise to make my family poorer, less secure and hinder the opportunities of my children in the future. That is absolutely not acceptable and its quite right that parliament won't allow it however many morons vote for it.
so what's your option? there won't be another referendum and what if there was another referendum leave won again?
The fact that Theresa May will spend time in parliament bashing a proposal for a second referendum shows how far things have come.
Six months ago "people'svote' was seen as a bit of a joke. Now you have brexiteers already accepting it's inevitability.
Six months ago "people'svote' was seen as a bit of a joke. Now you have brexiteers already accepting it's inevitability.
I was in London last week and it seemed to come as embarrassing news to many that the whole world is laughing at them!
No-one, certainly in Europe but also further afield, that I have met on my travels over the last 18 months, can figure how a country doing so well, and so universally admired, can screw itself up so badly and become such a laughing stock.
Universally agreed that although Trump is a bigger short-term embarrassment he is only one man and one that will be almost certainly removed in 2020 and normal service can be resumed.
I wouldn't be so sure about that one
I totally understand what you are saying (and agree it is not nailed-on by far) but it was not the important take-away from my message.
No deal vs Remain in a new referendum
One thing probably of concern is the rebate we receive was up for renewal in 2020 and if we revoke article 50 we probably will be paying the £350m instead of the ~£250 million currently. I don't see us getting the rebate again.
One thing probably of concern is the rebate we receive was up for renewal in 2020 and if we revoke article 50 we probably will be paying the £350m instead of the ~£250 million currently. I don't see us getting the rebate again.
what is the renewal mechanism? - is it majority vote - or do we have a veto?
Also the only way for a referendum to be held is for the government to legislate for it... I cant see may not having her deal on the ballot
The ECJ ruled that the UK could unilaterally withdraw from Article 50 and remain in the EU on the same terms as before. Those terms would include its veto power over withdrawal of the rebate.
If ever there was a betreyal of the people, it was the first one where leave spouted all the bullshit possible and promised everything under the sun fulwell knowing they would never have to deliver on it. They were all as shocked as us when they won and ran away from their promises as fast as they could and they were allowed to get away with it.
We haven't seen the likes of Hannan for example in the last 2 years promoting leave much because of what they have promised. Of course the likes of Nigel and Boris have no shame so they float around spouting more crap.
There will be another referendum and I firmly believe the shit around the first one won't fly this time and people will vote to remain.
Er....what ?
Yes we have a veto but the EU are looking to end rebates and 2020 is the end of the current one.
It's all over according to this lot.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...s-the-telegraph-that-brexit-is-over-1-5821286
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...s-the-telegraph-that-brexit-is-over-1-5821286
Who's going for the outcome:
May's deal get's voted down including by the DUP .
May throws the DUP under a bus and put's the Irish border in the Irish sea with NI staying in the CU and SM.
Rest of the Uk fall off the cliff and Scotland declare war on England.
May's deal get's voted down including by the DUP .
May throws the DUP under a bus and put's the Irish border in the Irish sea with NI staying in the CU and SM.
Rest of the Uk fall off the cliff and Scotland declare war on England.
"Britain will be humbled in the eyes of the world". Like the rest of the world hasn't been scoffing at Brexit up to now.
Even if you think Brexit is a good idea and the doubters will eventually be proven wrong, surely you must be aware of other countries' opinion on it as is?
What's the problem?
Going by whats coming out this morning parliament will never vote on her deal. She doesn't want the loss.