Dithering rich prat in a 4x4 causes car crash and almost kills a baby

Wibble said:
I have no chip. I just object to a society run with such inbuilt inequality.

A Marxist defending the existence of a royal family? Now that is plain weird.
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See above. Despite your protestations to the opposite the monarchy does not hold some vice like grip of power on modern UK society. There's bigger fish to fry then an ageing institution of monarchy slowly slipping into increasing irrelevance. The fight is in the boardrooms and in parliament - that's where the power is and often with the same people. Look at what's happening as we speak with Brexit.

You need to aim higher.
 
Wibble said:
When 26 individuals are worth as much as the 3.5 billion poorest people in the world you know we have a problem.

The problem with inheritence tax is that it leaves the top end alone, as they can afford to avoid the tax and you end up taxing mainly those who should be passing what little they have accumulated to their kids.
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I actually agree with most your points in this thread bar this one. I’m all for progressive taxation but can never bring myself to embrace the notion of an inheritance tax. It’s essentially double dipping already taxed income and assets.

If I work my rear off to buy a property that appreciates to considerable value I’d want to feel a piece of mind that my kids would be the benefactors of that grind.

For the mega rich and properties of gigantic value I don’t contest it, but for your standard London property for instance its punishing of even those who aren’t necessarily minted.
 
Wibble said:
It is about living in a fair an equitable society where things like ability and work ethic count more than inherited wealth, priveledge and position. It has zero to do with envy.
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Well that's just a daft argument. Why would I want my hard earned money not go to my kids and relatives and go to strangers? There has been this rising movement to hate the rich and pity the poor but nearly every rich person (or their ancestors) were once poor or not so well off. Instead of complaining why not try to improve your situation taking the rich as an example. And i say this as someone who's father and grandfather come from a village in India but work hard to slowly improve our financial situation. Even for me i can remember days where we had to live in homes hardly bigger than western living rooms when I was a kid. But never once did it occur to me to start blaming the rich or complaining was gonna improve my situation. Hard work is the only thing that did. We live in a dog eat dog world (and yes its a product of everyone's darling capitalist system) and I won't begrudge anyone who wants to look after themselves and their own first. Who wouldn't want their kids to have a better life than they did? As a counterpoint I still know some of my dad's mates who still live in those villages complaining about the rich and corruption and goodness knows what. It doesn't get you anywhere. Its as the old saying goes, "Instead of trying to change the world, try changing yourself".
 
Why are there people defending the Royals? They don't care about you, you're just a pleb to them. Go ahead, "enjoy" them.
 
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Kaos said:
I keep hearing the tourism angle from royalists but I don’t understand why. The palace of Versailles still gets heaps of tourists despite the fact the French binned their monarchy centuries ago. And how many tourists travel to the UK expecting to catch a glance of a Royal.

Granted the tabloids and gossip magazines will have less superficial material to work with but who really gives a feck.

The whole ‘sense of pride’ nonsense is laughable too. If a nation has to rely on feudalistic power structures to garner pride then they’ve got bigger problems.

And lastly don’t get me started on this condescending ‘Young uns wouldn’t get it’ nonsense. Why would they when they’re living under unprecedented levels of austerity, and have been shafted by the selfish decisions of the older generations. You’re genuinely expecting them to buy into the archaic notion of respecting an institution that enjoys lavish levels of wealth and status through the lottery of birth while being unaccountable to the same laws we’re all obliged to. Yeah no thanks.
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Well put.

I find people flocking to see them or celebrating their weddings like they were their own equally sad. They couldn't give a rat's arse about the public, not sure why they make such a massive fuss over them.
 
Barca84 said:
See above. Despite your protestations to the opposite the monarchy does not hold some vice like grip of power on modern UK society. There's bigger fish to fry then an ageing institution of monarchy slowly slipping into increasing irrelevance. The fight is in the boardrooms and in parliament - that's where the power is and often with the same people. Look at what's happening as we speak with Brexit.

You need to aim higher.
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They are a huge influence on things like Brexit. They are an intrinsic issue with the fundamental problems with UK society and politics.
 
Wibble said:
They are a huge influence on things like Brexit. They are an intrinsic issue with the fundamental problems with UK society and politics.
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You'll have to provide at least some detail of how you've come to these conclusions. Let's start with Brexit - how is The Queen, for example, a "huge influence on things like Brexit" I'd also be interested to know what are these "things like Brexit"
 
King7Eric said:
Well that's just a daft argument. Why would I want my hard earned money not go to my kids and relatives and go to strangers? There has been this rising movement to hate the rich and pity the poor but nearly every rich person (or their ancestors) were once poor or not so well off. Instead of complaining why not try to improve your situation taking the rich as an example. And i say this as someone who's father and grandfather come from a village in India but work hard to slowly improve our financial situation. Even for me i can remember days where we had to live in homes hardly bigger than western living rooms when I was a kid. But never once did it occur to me to start blaming the rich or complaining was gonna improve my situation. Hard work is the only thing that did. We live in a dog eat dog world (and yes its a product of everyone's darling capitalist system) and I won't begrudge anyone who wants to look after themselves and their own first. Who wouldn't want their kids to have a better life than they did? As a counterpoint I still know some of my dad's mates who still live in those villages complaining about the rich and corruption and goodness knows what. It doesn't get you anywhere. Its as the old saying goes, "Instead of trying to change the world, try changing yourself".
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Congrats on being suckered into believing all of the myths that they want you to believe. I don't know where you get the idea that "nearly every rich person were once poor" but the data absolutely does not back that up. It never occurred to you to start blaming the rich? There are finite resources on this planet and the rich are using a hugely disproportionate share while billions suffer. The fact that it never occurred to you says more about you than it does about the rest of us.
 
Kaos said:
I actually agree with most your points in this thread bar this one. I’m all for progressive taxation but can never bring myself to embrace the notion of an inheritance tax. It’s essentially double dipping already taxed income and assets.

If I work my rear off to buy a property that appreciates to considerable value I’d want to feel a piece of mind that my kids would be the benefactors of that grind.

For the mega rich and properties of gigantic value I don’t contest it, but for your standard London property for instance its punishing of even those who aren’t necessarily minted.
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That is exactly what I was taking issue with.
 
Barca84 said:
You'll have to provide at least some detail of how you've come to these conclusions. Let's start with Brexit - how is The Queen, for example, a "huge influence on things like Brexit" I'd also be interested to know what are these "things like Brexit"
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Because Brexit is a least partly (or even largely) based on nostalgia for when we had an empire. Queen and country. Swing low sweet chariot. Land of hope and glory etc etc

The Monarchy is a huge part of perpetuating such bollocks.
 
Eboue said:
Congrats on being suckered into believing all of the myths that they want you to believe. I don't know where you get the idea that "nearly every rich person were once poor" but the data absolutely does not back that up. It never occurred to you to start blaming the rich? There are finite resources on this planet and the rich are using a hugely disproportionate share while billions suffer. The fact that it never occurred to you says more about you than it does about the rest of us.
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It can say about me whatever you will, I just know that no person in this world succeeded in any walk of life by complaining about how unfair life has been to him/her. If you want to bring about change first you need to put yourself in a strong enough position to do that and you are not gonna reach there by going on about disproportional distribution of resources. But sadly its the way of the world these days, where people would rather whine than actually try to improve their situation.

Also the thing that has most stretched the resources on our planet is the population and since you are also from India you would know as well as I do that despite repeated attempts at educating them to the contrary, it is the poor who cannot afford them that are more likely to have a larger number of kids than an average middle class person. Who's fault is that then?

Edit- Also regarding this mythical "they" who want people to believe stuff that you mention. There is no "they" or New World Order or Illuminati or some conspiracy to keep the average man down. Yes the rich protect their assets and its fair enough but no one is stopping you from becoming rich. Many a people with humble backgrounds go on to become millionaires and billionaires through sheer hard work and grit. But I concur its much easier to forget all this and blame "they" for all your troubles and frustrations.
 
King7Eric said:
It can say about me whatever you will, I just know that no person in this world succeeded in any walk of life by complaining about how unfair life has been to him/her. If you want to bring about change first you need to put yourself in a strong enough position to do that and you are not gonna reach there by going on about disproportional distribution of resources. But sadly its the way of the world these days, where people would rather whine than actually try to improve their situation.

Also the thing that has most stretched the resources on our planet is the population and since you are also from India you would know as well as I do that despite repeated attempts at educating them to the contrary, it is the poor who cannot afford them that are more likely to have a larger number of kids than an average middle class person. Who's fault is that then?
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He is not from India mate.
 
King7Eric said:
It can say about me whatever you will, I just know that no person in this world succeeded in any walk of life by complaining about how unfair life has been to him/her. If you want to bring about change first you need to put yourself in a strong enough position to do that and you are not gonna reach there by going on about disproportional distribution of resources. But sadly its the way of the world these days, where people would rather whine than actually try to improve their situation.

Also the thing that has most stretched the resources on our planet is the population and since you are also from India you would know as well as I do that despite repeated attempts at educating them to the contrary, it is the poor who cannot afford them that are more likely to have a larger number of kids than an average middle class person. Who's fault is that then?
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My situation is fine, though that is completely irrelevant to whether or not my argument has any validity. People always bring up "jealousy" or "whining" or "laziness" whenever someone criticizes the extreme and rapidly growing wealth inequality. Argue the merits of the points.
 
Eboue said:
My situation is fine, though that is completely irrelevant to whether or not my argument has any validity. People always bring up "jealousy" or "whining" or "laziness" whenever someone criticizes the extreme and rapidly growing wealth inequality. Argue the merits of the points.
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Just added an edit to the previous post that might be relevant.

Also, there is wealth inequality and there always has been since money was invented. It will always be there no matter how much you try. We humans are genetically coded to live in tribes and look after our tribes(families and friends in the modern world) first and foremost to the detriment of others. That will always stay the same. But the general standard of living for a huge bulk of population has gone better compared to what it was 200 years ago. The capitalist economy, for all its faults, provides opportunity for every skilled individual to improve their standard of living. Its up to you how much you want to push that. The rich have more than they need from our perspective but then so do we from the perspective of a starving beggar. For instance we don't need a car or a PlayStation to survive in this world. So should all of us be giving all kinds of luxuries and moving to a primitive state of living?
 
King7Eric said:
Also, there is wealth inequality and there always has been since money was invented. It will always be there no matter how much you try.
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This is nonsense. We can design a society to not have 26 people having more money than 3.5 billion. It doesnt mean street sweepers make the same as engineers. But it does mean no more billionaires. Every billionaire is a failure of policy. We can change policy to prevent such incredible concentration of resources, we already have in decades gone by.
 
Eboue said:
This is nonsense. We can design a society to not have 26 people having more money than 3.5 billion. It doesnt mean street sweepers make the same as engineers. But it does mean no more billionaires. Every billionaire is a failure of policy. We can change policy to prevent such incredible concentration of resources, we already have in decades gone by.
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What do you refer to in the bolded part?
 
Wibble said:
Because Brexit is a least partly (or even largely) based on nostalgia for when we had an empire. Queen and country. Swing low sweet chariot. Land of hope and glory etc etc

The Monarchy is a huge part of perpetuating such bollocks.
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It's a remarkable stretch to blame the monarchy for Brexit and you haven't managed it. Nostalgia for empire as some sort of precursor to Brexit is highly debatable not least because Brexit is, more than anything, a form of retreat and withdrawal from the world. The UK shrinking back into itself and closing it's borders. There's a counter argument that the opposite is in fact true and that the myth that the UK can remain a global player on the world stage and lead from within the EU has far more empirical associations than leaving.

This current manifestation of this monarchy perpetuate no such "bollocks". These days you'll only find the purveyors of nostalgia for Empire in the political class who are happy to sell it to a demographic looking for a better life.

What are these other "things like Brexit"?

And what on earth has Swing Low Sweet Chariot got to do with empire? It's a song sung at Rugby matches only since the late 80s.
 
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Eboue said:
This is nonsense. We can design a society to not have 26 people having more money than 3.5 billion. It doesnt mean street sweepers make the same as engineers. But it does mean no more billionaires. Every billionaire is a failure of policy. We can change policy to prevent such incredible concentration of resources, we already have in decades gone by.
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Tosh, my American capitalist friend!
 
Eboue said:
This is nonsense. We can design a society to not have 26 people having more money than 3.5 billion. It doesnt mean street sweepers make the same as engineers. But it does mean no more billionaires. Every billionaire is a failure of policy. We can change policy to prevent such incredible concentration of resources, we already have in decades gone by.
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Seeing as how Kings have always been "billionaires' if we equate today's money to ancient times I'd say it's a pipedream to hope for a world without billionaires. Believe it or not money is far better distributed today than at any time in history. The "middle class" is quite a modern invention of the last 100-150 years. Yes I agree that if we were to design a new world today we could distribute money better, but it's never gonna happen.
 
Eboue said:
You're right, I dont believe it. Using America as an example, wealth was better distributed in the 40s-70s than it is now.
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Even if you are right, that's 30 years in how many thousands years of history? Today's world is much better than the feudal and colonial empires that have dominated human history. Also, just because wealth was better distributed for 3 decades in a single country doesn't mean it was all over. Ask any middle class person who lived in the 60s and 70s and they'll tell you how much better the standard of living is in general. Heck, in most western countries and even some Asian ones, you even get unemployment benefits, something that would have been inconceivable a 100 or so years ago.
 
King7Eric said:
Even if you are right, that's 30 years in how many thousands years of history? Today's world is much better than the feudal and colonial empires that have dominated human history. Also, just because wealth was better distributed for 3 decades in a single country doesn't mean it was all over. Ask any middle class person who lived in the 60s and 70s and they'll tell you how much better the standard of living is in general. Heck, in most western countries and even some Asian ones, you even get unemployment benefits, something that would have been inconceivable a 100 or so years ago.
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How things were thousands of years ago is irrelevant to this discussion. We can do better. We have done better in recent memory.
 
Eboue said:
How things were thousands of years ago is irrelevant to this discussion. We can do better. We have done better in recent memory.
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Again the same diatribe. Do you have any practical way of "doing better"?? Especially one which you can get the most of the world to agree upon? If so you should put it into action and there's a noble prize waiting for you. If not then whining about how bad things are on an internet forum isn't going to help anyone in the slightest.
 
It's funny that we should be grateful for unemployment benefits and all that. How do you think workers got those benefits? They had to fecking fight and die for it. They got beat up by muscle groups and corrupt police officers hired by corporations. It's easy to say "change yourself before you look at others", when it's exactly the "others" who prefer to hold you down. Fortunately, brave people before us didn't suck up to the wealthy and partially because of that, we now have a pretty good standard of living. But we can do better.
 
King7Eric said:
Again the same diatribe. Do you have any practical way of "doing better"?? Especially one which you can get the most of the world to agree upon? If so you should put it into action and there's a noble prize waiting for you. If not then whining about how bad things are on an internet forum isn't going to help anyone in the slightest.
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Diatribe? Buddy, I'm discussing the issue that other people are discussing. Do I have a practical way of making it better? Yes, let's start with higher taxes. This is simple stuff.
 
VorZakone said:
It's funny that we should be grateful for unemployment benefits and all that. How do you think workers got those benefits? They had to fecking fight and die for it. They got beat up by muscle groups and corrupt police officers hired by corporations. It's easy to say "change yourself before you look at others", when it's exactly the "others" who prefer to hold you down. Fortunately, brave people before us didn't suck up to the wealthy and partially because of that, we now have a pretty good standard of living. But we can do better.
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People like KingEric think everything is down to personal choices. They refuse to acknowledge that there are structural reasons for some of the problems in society and that those structures must be reckoned with.
 
VorZakone said:
It's funny that we should be grateful for unemployment benefits and all that. How do you think workers got those benefits? They had to fecking fight and die for it. They got beat up by muscle groups and corrupt police officers hired by corporations. It's easy to say "change yourself before you look at others", when it's exactly the "others" who prefer to hold you down. Fortunately, brave people before us didn't suck up to the wealthy and partially because of that, we now have a pretty good standard of living. But we can do better.
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Well that's my whole point innit? If you think something is wrong or you want to improve it, put in the work and fight for it. "Demanding" the rich give their money to the poor is not something that's ever gonna happen.
 
Eboue said:
Diatribe? Buddy, I'm discussing the issue that other people are discussing. Do I have a practical way of making it better? Yes, let's start with higher taxes. This is simple stuff.
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Eboue said:
People like KingEric think everything is down to personal choices. They refuse to acknowledge that there are structural reasons for some of the problems in society and that those structures must be reckoned with.
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Do you think the people who put in the structures to safeguard their interests are going to agree to measures that cause those structures to fall?? You say raise taxes, well brilliant but if it was so simple then why hasn't it been so easily implemented? There is never a simple solution to social problems and the only way for society to overcome them as a whole is for each individual to first improve their own situation and then proceed to the next step. Calling the present situation unfair is neither here nor there, it is what it is and you need to first look at getting yourself in a strong enough position to be able to influence society in any meaningful way.
 
King7Eric said:
Well that's my whole point innit? If you think something is wrong or you want to improve it, put in the work and fight for it. "Demanding" the rich give their money to the poor is not something that's ever gonna happen.
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There are more of us than there are of them. We demand our representatives do something about it. We elect people who share our values. We discuss issues with people who dont currently agree and eventually some of them do.
 
King7Eric said:
Do you think the people who put in the structures to safeguard their interests are going to agree to measures that cause those structures to fall?? You say raise taxes, well brilliant but if it was so simple then why hasn't it been so easily implemented? There is never a simple solution to social problems and the only way for society to overcome them as a whole is for each individual to first improve their own situation and then proceed to the next step. Calling the present situation unfair is neither here nor there, it is what it is and you need to first look at getting yourself in a strong enough position to be able to influence society in any meaningful way.
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What is your actual point? This is bizarre. You seem to be saying that anyone who wants to change anything needs to become rich and powerful first.
 
Eboue said:
What is your actual point? This is bizarre. You seem to be saying that anyone who wants to change anything needs to become rich and powerful first.
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What I'm saying is that its highly improbable that one generation is going to able to change the societal structure. If everyone simply concentrated on their own problems and worked towards making their own life better, then society as a whole will slowly get better. So worry about your own issues and let the rest take care of itself, rather than trying to bring about widespread societal change to change the way the world runs.
 
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