Because she hasn't recognised that it is already irreprably broken down the middle.
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Because she hasn't recognised that it is already irreprably broken down the middle.
Oh the irony
"Shermin Hassan, a 28-year-old aspiring actor of Cypriot heritage, only moved to Crewe a month ago, to be with her partner, Kyan Adams. Originally from Tottenham in London, she voted remain but moving north had “opened her eyes”. She said she was now much more sympathetic to the idea of leaving the EU"
The article could just have easily led with her story. Would you call Shermin a bigot?
I'd call her an eejit
I'd call her an idiot but what's your point exactly? There's more leavers willing to tolerate anything to get rid of those bloody foreigners than they are those who relocated and have a new insight.
The whole defence of well not every leaver is a bigot is meaningless, it's just leave voters not wanting to be associated to those they voted alongside whilst ignoring they enabled them.
If only a third are bigots (and i'd say much higher) then we're still being taken out of the EU due to bigotry.
My point is that the article, despite it's headline, does have a semblance of balance in that it illustrates that not everyone in Crewe is a bigot. I think it's particularly interesting that prior to moving there she couldn't comprehend why you would vote leave but, having experienced what life is like there for some, was now more sympathetic to the leave vote. That's more of a story than yet another picture of a xenophobe stood in front of the Union flag for me but that's The Guardian for you.
The response here on the caf is, predictably, abuse.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47055188
Funny how after the referendum all the Leaver's said nothing will happen in the car sector because the companies won't want to move away from their fantastic UK factories and workers.
Funny how after the referendum all the Leaver's said nothing will happen in the car sector because the companies won't want to move away from their fantastic UK factories and workers.
Which is the absolute height of hypocrisy - parliament can vote on something twice (or as many times as they want as other posters have said), but there cant be a second referendum because that would be undemocratic according to some.
Jesus wept.
So there is something I'm really confused about.
The backstop is, apparently, not acceptable for the majority of Parliament. OK.
But then what? Is there any other solution on offer that would not violate the Good Friday Agreement and would not mean a hard border with Ireland? Has anything been even proposed? Why would a backstop with a time limit be any better? I really don't understand it all.
The backstop is, apparently, not acceptable for the majority of Parliament. OK.
But then what? Is there any other solution on offer that would not violate the Good Friday Agreement and would not mean a hard border with Ireland? Has anything been even proposed? Why would a backstop with a time limit be any better? I really don't understand it all.
Having swindled the people once, they're afraid to try again in case there's a different result.
In a nutshell:
Is there any other solution on offer that would not violate the Good Friday Agreement and would not mean a hard border with Ireland? Not at present.
Has anything been even proposed? The amendment passed in parliament the other night proposed "alternative arrangments" to the backstop. The detail of which no one knows, the government havent said but have alluded to "technology" which was discussed and rejected in the two year negotiation phase.
Why would a backstop with a time limit be any better? It wouldnt. This is just the UK trying to impose something and the EU have flatly rejected it on the basis that if there is a time limit on it what is the point of having it at all.
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I think it sort of goes two ways. A lot of Labour (their shitty leader not included), and some remainer Tories, don't see the deal as 'soft enough', they'd prefer a second referendum, or a more permanent solution to keeping the UK in the customs union than the backstop. The Brexiteer Tories who want out out, and don't give a toss about Northern ireland or the economy or the GFA saw it as being too soft and hated the fact that it kept them tied to the EU with no time limits.
The problem with May's deal is that it was so in the middle that it didn't satisfy either leavers or remainers. Leaver's thought it kept them too tied to the EU with no guarantees of actually getting out, remainers thought it was just like the current deal without any of the benefits of actually being a member. It was a lose-lose for everyone, which anyone with half a brain could've seen coming, but ... UK parliament, bunch of feckwits.
Thanks. So it's not like I misunderstood something, it's really just genuinely stupid.
She moved out of London, and it made her more sympathetic to leave the EU? Because somehow us leaving the EU is going to improve the quality of life for the rest of the UK outside London?
Anyone who thinks Brexit is going to be beneficial for the rest of the UK needs their head examining.
I dont think its that Brexit is going to make life better for people outside London. Its the idea that, for many, especially outside the big cities, life is already shit. So the feeling is they have nothing to lose. If Brexit makes things worse for them, so what? How much worse can they get? And if things get worse for London, good, because its only when things get shit for people in London that anyone will recognise the UK has a problem and do something about it. And only then will things, maybe, start to change for the better.
There was a junior minister (didn't recognise him) on Sky News explaining that it was 'really quite simple' and that they could just go onto a website to declare the movement of goods and fees. Customs could then just drop in to merchants. Simple see
That isn't what she or the article says though is it? Have you read it? She says she is "more sympathetic" to why people voted to leave after experiencing the hardship of life in a community that she previously had not. It was the more interesting part of the piece - much more so than the xenophobe who simply wants less foreigners. We know all about them but it was The Guardian so we get the picture of him with his flag.
Understanding the behaviour of people doesn't have to involve agreeing with it in anyway whatsoever.
It can get a lot worse for them. I do understand the feeling of helplessness and wanting to basically stick two fingers up at the "elite" in London. But as bad as it gets for the "elite" the hardest hit will be those in the poorer communities anyway. They're basically fecking themselves over too.
I have read it and that's basically what is being implied. She moved out of London and saw what the community is like so is more sympathetic to Leavers. Which makes zero sense. Because why would seeing their hardship make you more sympathetic to Brexit? As if Brexit is somehow going to improve their lot?
Good post
I really dont get the whole "london elite" thing, its a fantasy.
99% of Londoners are like everyone else in the UK except they have bigger mortgages and smaller houses.
99% of Londoners are like everyone else in the UK except they have bigger mortgages and smaller houses.
Of course it can. Im saying that is the sentiment behind it, not that the sentiment is correct.
There are jobs. There is a community. There are young people.
You have small towns where people have zero prospect of finding work, so as soon as people are old enough to get the hell out, if they have the means to get the hell out, they do. Making life more depressing for the people who are left behind.
Where do they go? London. As well as Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh etc. All the places that voted Remain.
I repeat...understanding behaviour and having insight into it doesn't necessarily mean that you either agree with it or find it to be rational. No where has she said she herself thinks Brexit would improve anything. I live in an area that voted 70% for Brexit. I understand why people voted that way. I didn't, and I think they're wrong, but I have sympathy for why they have voted the way they did. I understand what it is that many people fear and what it is that they hoped to achieve by voting the way that they did whilst simultaneously disagreeing with that view and thinking that there are better ways to address the issues at hand.
It doesn't make anyone an "idiot".
I understand that, but it doesnt make Londoners "elite" though.
No of course not.
See, I agree with 95% of what you're saying. I also have sympathy with them and I can understand the reasons behind why they voted to leave. But it definitely does make them idiots, because they're fecking over the whole country with their vote.
Not if they understand it might make things worse for the whole country, including them, in the short term, but they believe it will - or might - make things better, especially for them, in the longer term.
If things had carried on exactly as they were before things might be better for the country as a whole but they would still be left behind, their communities would still be completely forgotten, people would have to move to cities in order to have any opportunities.
With Brexit, maybe things get worse for the country as a whole and maybe for that reason things get worse for them in the short term. But in facing up to the problems of Brexit, maybe things change for small towns. I dont think it will happen, by the way, but this is far more debatable, far less predictable, than the immediate fallout and chaos, which is pretty much a certainty as this point. There is at least a chance.
If your circumstances are shit you might as well vote for chaos, because after things have been shaken up there is a chance they will settle again in a way that is more favourable for you. I dont think that is stupid at all.
You called Shermin an idiot. Are you outing yourself as an idiot for agreeing with her?
I've made this argument here previously regarding some of the motivation behind the leave vote. I'd also agree with you that it's mistaken. But you'll struggle to get beyond the "idiot" response stage as we've seen here.
It's nice to be corrected and now know that we don't have any idiots in the country. I always thought a segment of society must be ill informed given the low level of political participation and high readership of the rag papers but no they're not stupid they're just wilfull dickheads out to get something they want.
Cool
Cool
It's an overused term by remainers that has lost impact by using it in every post. It does go to show what a self righteous bunch they are.
Who's saying "we don't have any idiots in the country"? What an odd claim. I thought The Guardian piece was interesting because the views of a remainer had been affected by first hand experience of life in a largely leave voting town. She was immediately branded an idiot by you and someone else.
People wilfully "out to get something they want" I presume is a euphemism for voting for something you yourself don't want. When you vote do you vote for things you don't want?
Just checking, are the people using the word "idiot" being self-righteous, but the people saying they're willing to inflict pain on their own country to leave the EU no matter the cost are not?
I’d go with ‘spectacularly ill informed’ rather than ‘idiots’.
I live in London, but have had many conversations with leave voters in South Wales (where my folks live) and the Home Counties (where I grew up and still have many friends). What comes across to me in almost all these conversations is how nearly every leave voter has a fundamental misunderstanding of some of the key facts. They typically do not understand the differences between the customs union and the single market; or the structure of the EU including the parliament and commission; or what the WTO is and isn’t; the content of the Good Friday agreement, or indeed anything about Northern Irish politics at all; the content and implications of the Withdrawal Agreement; the realities of modern free trade agreements and multilateral politics etc
But most fundamentally, they do not even understand conceptually what they want from a nation state in the 21st century.
My conclusion is the vast majority of people voted emotionally from a position of staggering ignorance. This is arguably true of remain voters as well, though from my experience they do seem significantly better informed on the key issues, in general.
I live in London, but have had many conversations with leave voters in South Wales (where my folks live) and the Home Counties (where I grew up and still have many friends). What comes across to me in almost all these conversations is how nearly every leave voter has a fundamental misunderstanding of some of the key facts. They typically do not understand the differences between the customs union and the single market; or the structure of the EU including the parliament and commission; or what the WTO is and isn’t; the content of the Good Friday agreement, or indeed anything about Northern Irish politics at all; the content and implications of the Withdrawal Agreement; the realities of modern free trade agreements and multilateral politics etc
But most fundamentally, they do not even understand conceptually what they want from a nation state in the 21st century.
My conclusion is the vast majority of people voted emotionally from a position of staggering ignorance. This is arguably true of remain voters as well, though from my experience they do seem significantly better informed on the key issues, in general.
Yes, you can imagine its almost like a return to the medieval times, the Feudal Lords and their favoured henchmen, mercenaries and surfs living inside the castles, (now the major cities) the rest of the population, scrapping a living off the land.... or engaging in highway robbery, County lines drug dealing, etc.! When will Robin Hood return?
Of the several hundred people I know who voted leave, none of them are poor, none of them are out of work, none of them live in a deprived area and none of them live in a northern town.
Above all they're all highly intelligent and love foreigners because there are no bigots or idiots in the country.
Above all they're all highly intelligent and love foreigners because there are no bigots or idiots in the country.
Great thread for anyone - like me - who gets confused about the whole backstop SNAFU.
As was said above, nobody is saying there are no bigots or idiots in the country. Just that voting Leave doesnt necessarily make you either of those things.
This I would agree with. It's fanciful to suggest that somehow the remain vote en bloc had some innate understanding of the GFA or the WTO (for example) when they went to the ballot box. Most of the noise you heard then was about ease of working and holidaying around Europe and petty bickering about passports. Two years on the complexities are far more understood of course but people, still largely to my mind, are not overly interested in what's best for the country but in fact what's best for their pocket. On the remain side in particular the debate rarely strays beyond the economics
I thought this short film about one of those small towns captured the hopelessness of life pretty well.