Ole Gunnar Solskjaer | W15 D2 L4

[Samid]

The arguments that Ole was 'tactically outclassed' tonight are, frankly, absurd. The set up was fine, but he was fecked by an unfortunate double injury at half time and PSG took advantage before we'd got to grips with the change. The two options he bought on were, of course, not suited to doing what Lingard (in particular) had done, but he had no other options.

There's simply a gulf in quality between the two sides (even when PSG have two of their key players out injured) and they won the game because of a defensive mistake by us and a moment of quality. Both of those are areas we know we need to improve.

Disagree. Get Dalot on (for Martial) to play RM and him and Young would shut out the threat on the right hand side. Getting Mata on was just criminal. Against a side of this quality he offers absolutely nothing in attack, he doesn't have the legs to run and his defensive work is non-existent. Very stupid and naive sub. At least Dalot would have served a purpose and added energy to the team on the flank.

'Tactically outclassed' is just silly but I'm sure Tuchel must have licked his lips when he saw Mata getting ready. They shifted gear at the start of the second half and started stretching our defence big time. That sub is the only thing I blame Ole for tonight. Think he got a bit carried away with it being a home game and possibly underestimating PSG a fair bit based on their first half. They were always going to go for the away goal in the second half and we played it into their hands by bringing a passenger on at half time.

As long as he learns from this experience and shows ruthlessness in the summer I don't mind crashing out to a team that quite frankly is a class or two above. He hasn't spent a penny, yet has brought us back from the dead by catching up 11 points on 4th place in 8 games.

 

[Al-T]

Ole is quite right. Tonight was a reality check.

The reality is that there is not enough depth or quality in the squad to mount a challenge v a team like PSG when key personnel pick up injuries. Made worse by another dubious referee in a European tie.

It should also be a reality check for Woodward. Ole has made a decent fist of turning a sow's ear into a silk purse but he needs to be supported to bring in players that fit his vision.

 

[breakout67]

Today of all days was a reality check??? Countless posters have been saying this squad isn't good enough for several months. But some were so obsessed with the manager that they weren't having it. Unbelievable that some think that this is a squad that can challenge for major honours but was being mismanaged. Ask fans of the elite clubs and most of them will say the manager isn't all that important for winning things, player quality is what is important. Any decent manager can get Madrid and Barca playing because they do everything they can to improve the quality of players.

We finally get a manager that knows the club and I fear he'll be shafted by the poor structure of the club just like the previous two managers.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

What does being the better manager imply though? Will he win the CL this season then I'm assuming? Or at least comfortably get past Dortmund yeah?

Are you seriously suggesting that at present, Pochettino isn't a better manager than OGS...? That's crazy.

Look at his work with Southampton, look what he's built with basically nothing to spend (compared to our squad) at Spurs.

He's got the PL down, finishing 2nd and 3rd regularly with a squad whose wages and cost is a lot less than this United side.

Pochettino with United backing would be a terrifying prospect.

OGS is a great interim, but for feck sake we're SO sentimental as a fanbase it's actially dangerous for the club.

OGS has shown that he's worth another go at another PL club, and that's a big compliment to him, but those clubs, right now, would be a Watford, a Southampton, a Bournemouth.

He's not ready to be the manager to wrestle Klopp and Guardiola.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Canagel]

Are you seriously suggesting that at present, Pochettino isn't a better manager than OGS...? That's crazy.

Look at his work with Southampton, look what he's built with basically nothing to spend (compared to our squad) at Spurs.

He's got the PL down, finishing 2nd and 3rd regularly with a squad whose wages and cost is a lot less than this United side.

Pochettino with United backing would be a terrifying prospect.

OGS is a great interim, but for feck sake we're SO sentimental as a fanbase it's actially dangerous for the club.

OGS has shown that he's worth another go at another PL club, and that's a big compliment to him, but those clubs, right now, would be a Watford, a Southampton, a Bournemouth.

He's not ready to be the manager to wrestle Klopp and Guardiola.

That's just my opinion.

Why couldn't ole with backing wrestle Klopp and guardiola?
He's outperformed both in the league so far. And poch.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Something I haven't seen said here, the players have been playing at full throttle and in great form for the better part of a dozen fixtures. Fatigue seemed to be a factor as the boys looked out of pace throughout the match. I stand for Ole and believe he will deal with this hit appropriately.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Why couldn't ole with backing wrestle Klopp and guardiola?
He's outperformed both in the league so far. And poch.

He's taken over a talented team who were relieved to simply see their previous manager leave, and he's then had a lovely run of games.

He was lucky to win against Spurs, and in a number of other games it was individual brilliance (Rashford and Pogba) that won the games.

He's done really well, make no mistake, and, as I've stated numerous times, with what he's shown thus far I think he's shown he's a better manager than the Cardiff showing - but I honestly think that a lot of Utd fans actually play down the actual size of the club and the size of the job of being Utd manager.

Pochettino has experience of PL footy at the top level, and has shown consistency over a number of years.

For me, I don't think OGS is at Elite level at present, and I believe firmly that Utd isn't a place for managers to learn on the go.

 

[vivaronaldo]

said it before say it again , use the 6 months wisely and choose accordingly ....thought tactically ole had no answers today , BUT that doesn't mean he is out of the running , but lets just take a step back

 

[vivaronaldo]

Are you seriously suggesting that at present, Pochettino isn't a better manager than OGS...? That's crazy.

Look at his work with Southampton, look what he's built with basically nothing to spend (compared to our squad) at Spurs.

He's got the PL down, finishing 2nd and 3rd regularly with a squad whose wages and cost is a lot less than this United side.

Pochettino with United backing would be a terrifying prospect.

OGS is a great interim, but for feck sake we're SO sentimental as a fanbase it's actially dangerous for the club.

OGS has shown that he's worth another go at another PL club, and that's a big compliment to him, but those clubs, right now, would be a Watford, a Southampton, a Bournemouth.

He's not ready to be the manager to wrestle Klopp and Guardiola.

That's just my opinion.

every opposition fan I have spoken to wants us to keep ole and avoid poch......they see nothing but a moyes like scenario with an inexperienced manager in ole , but im prepared to sit for 5 months and make a call come May ....

 

[Sauldogba]

I think its understandable that some fans are criticising the manager.its simple if we can credit him for when we play well we can critique him when we play shit.

For me this match has turned me from 100 percent Ole should be given the job to Pochetino being back in contention.

The thing with Oles United is against any good team,Psg,Tottenham,Arsenal etc we pretty much play the same way.
The diamond formation or a 433 where we look to hit the opposition on the counter.
Were gonna eventually need to switch it up against good teams as we saw tonight because it wont always work.

Ole should get blame tonight because
his subs were awful and we had no plan b.
Playing a high line against Mbappe and Di Maria was asking for trouble.
Putting Mata on the wing killed the game and a lot of us knew it would.
Putting Bailey in the starting line up as well.
Taking too long to bring on Lukaku was another thing.

All in all hes done a great job but lets not wear red tinted glasses and act that wasnt a shit show we just witnessed. I dont even think we had a shot on target?

 

[Razvan]

Why couldn't ole with backing wrestle Klopp and guardiola?
He's outperformed both in the league so far. And poch.

What do you mean he outperformed them? He's managed 9 games, don't you think that's quite a small sample?

 

[Canagel]

He's taken over a talented team who were relieved to simply see their previous manager leave, and he's then had a lovely run of games.

He was lucky to win against Spurs, and in a number of other games it was individual brilliance (Rashford and Pogba) that won the games.

He's done really well, make no mistake, and, as I've stated numerous times, with what he's shown thus far I think he's shown he's a better manager than the Cardiff showing - but I honestly think that a lot of Utd fans actually play down the actual size of the club and the size of the job of being Utd manager.

Pochettino has experience of PL footy at the top level, and has shown consistency over a number of years.

For me, I don't think OGS is at Elite level at present, and I believe firmly that Utd isn't a place for managers to learn on the go.

Every team relies on their best players so man managing the likes of Rashford and Pogba is huge credit. Weve also shown a big tactical change with the introduction of high pressing and others like false 9 giving us template to work with and in the process exposing who isn't suited to the system. He should be left to build the squad in his image. Theres clear starting 11 but some of the replacements are ill suited and its not really possible to demonstrate a flexibility with players that doesn't suit your system. We saw a competitive game tonight with his full strength attack and another game when two of them departed.
Lukaku coming on with only 7 mins and Fellaini being jettisoned instantly etc proves he should get the summer . He knows what a United quality is.

 

[dove]

Why couldn't ole with backing wrestle Klopp and guardiola?
He's outperformed both in the league so far. And poch.

Do you think Allardyce is the best ever England Manager? He has 100% record so he must be No but seriously let's not get ahead of ourselves, next few months will show if he can take us forward or not.

 

[ash_86]

I cannot stand the word False Dawn again. Let's give the job to Ole and back him along with brining in a DOF.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Ole has done a great job but I don't see the need to decide on him after 10 games. Clearly we have a long way to go and if the board are convinced that he's a man then sure but I personally need to see more of the way our system is developing to see whether he is the right manager for us. I do think he'd pushed himself into the forefront but it's a big job and we have to be certain. As long as I'm convinced of his ideas, I'll be behind him keeping in mind he seems to manage individuals well.

 

[Anustart89]

He’s being judged game to game as if he’s a player. It’s very bizarre. As if every performance is a direct result of his actions, irrespective of result or context.

Well, this isn’t how it works. You make judgements based on a body of work over time. Like we judged Mourinho and Van Gaal for the worse. Or Ferguson for the better. We didn’t watch Ferguson’s team lose to a clearly superior Milan side and pick apart his minute-by-minute management of the team. We accepted the loss as a normal element of football; part and parcel of a season in which football matches are lost.

Some folk are even criticising his team talk. Talking about his Tuchel ‘done him over’ going into the second half. Like, where and when did this happen? And how?

It’s going to be a tedious end to the season if every match is going to be viewed in isolation like this. Bloody hell.

You’re stupid if you can’t see that Tuchel managed to cause Martial and Lingard’s muscular injuries with his smooth team talking tongue.

 

[Gator Nate]

I do not understand how anyone can blame Ole for the loss today.

1. PSG are a better team, United need to spend time and money and re-build. This is not yet Oles team, and this is his first loss in two months. No one could have done any better. I just don't see how.

2. Ref messed up the match, took the flow out of uniteds play imo. Also should have given second yellow to Kimpembe and not Pogba. Nani should have been given the yellow earlier. Pro-Psg ref.

3. Players were nervous and it got worse because of the ref. Maybe also kind of "that day" performance wise.

4. Then the injuries of Martial and Lingard. Blaming Ole for the subs is ridicoulous. Who should he have put on that could have saved the day? This is a team sport and you would need at least one Messi to turn this shit around.

5. Not much else to work with on the bench. Maybe Lukaku, but he has been poor lately imo.

6. Unprecise deliveries/passes. That is not a tactical choice either.

I sincerely think that long term development and continuity pays off. If Ole gets the job, I am truly convinced United will get better ad better, as long as good enough players are bought.
World class CB, RB, RW is a good start, along with letting Ole have a pre-season and getting the players in shape for high-press play.

x10 Thank you for writing this! Saved me the time.

I'll only add that Herrera's many shots were mostly awful.

 

[Tony247]

Did not watch the match. Wasn't expecting to win. Somewhere hoping some miracle to happen but practically wasn't expecting anything better.

We cannot compete in multiple competitions without strong 16-18 member squad. This team is one, max two domestic competition team. Shame for a club of size Man Utd but that's what it is. We need to rebuild this summer.

For this season, battle out top 4, get FA cup as a bonus if you can and come home in one piece. We will see everyone next year when chips are not down for us.

 

[Fridge chutney]

The arguments that Ole was 'tactically outclassed' tonight are, frankly, absurd. The set up was fine, but he was fecked by an unfortunate double injury at half time and PSG took advantage before we'd got to grips with the change. The two options he bought on were, of course, not suited to doing what Lingard (in particular) had done, but he had no other options.

There's simply a gulf in quality between the two sides (even when PSG have two of their key players out injured) and they won the game because of a defensive mistake by us and a moment of quality. Both of those are areas we know we need to improve.

Wow, someone being rational after a loss. Hats off. Your post is spot on.

We need to invest in a lingard-type player because we are bereft without him.

We need to invest in a truly world class CB.

We need a world class RB.

Then we're not too far off a solid outfit.

 

[Fridge chutney]

He’s being judged game to game as if he’s a player. It’s very bizarre. As if every performance is a direct result of his actions, irrespective of result or context.

Well, this isn’t how it works. You make judgements based on a body of work over time. Like we judged Mourinho and Van Gaal for the worse. Or Ferguson for the better. We didn’t watch Ferguson’s team lose to a clearly superior Milan side and pick apart his minute-by-minute management of the team. We accepted the loss as a normal element of football; part and parcel of a season in which football matches are lost.

Some folk are even criticising his team talk. Talking about his Tuchel ‘done him over’ going into the second half. Like, where and when did this happen? And how?

It’s going to be a tedious end to the season if every match is going to be viewed in isolation like this. Bloody hell.

Genuinely couldn't have said it any better. This should be pinned at the top of this thread. Bloody well said.

If Redcafe would have existed in 1986, we would have absolutely hated and detested Ferguson. He'd have been rubbish and sacked in the court of Redcafe opinion.

Not to say Ole is definitely the right man for the job. But a loss was inevitable. Let's judge him at the end of the season over his entire body of work, which to this point, has been better than anything we've seen post Ferguson.

 

[Fridge chutney]

"Today was a reality check from the level we need to be" paraphrasing Ole. He knows the score. Trust in him and with the right backing he'll get us to where we should be.

I fecking love him. I truly hope he gets the job. He knows the score...

 

[Kapardin]

Interesting comments from Ole. Almost a veiled criticism of Sanchez by saying there's a good player in him somewhere or something to that effect. He wants Sanchez to step up.

Also said we have to strengthen the squad which is clearly a hint that we need to make signings in the summer. Fairly obvious of course, but it's the first time he's acknowledged in public that we need better players to get to where we want to be.

Regarding the defeat itself, I feel flat and depressed, but on the bright side, this is the first time in awhile I'm feeling that way. Under Mourinho, I never felt anything but a blank indifference when we lost. Ole has atleast brought the football back.

 

[Hisha]

Ole looked completely clueless and that is a bigger problem than the loss.

 

[Christie]

Ole is well known to be a super sub. He is best at coming in to replace a player or manager and scoring important goals or managerial wins when the team is burnt out and need a fresh perspective.

He was never good enough to hold down a starting spot for himself. It will be a mistake for us to give him the starting job.

Let's use Ole like how Fergie always did and not forget the culture of our club.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Ole looked completely clueless and that is a bigger problem than the loss.

I don't want to say completely clueless. The subs did hurt us. We didn't look great in the 1st half either and some concerning signs were there, but it was still a game.

Our performance in the 2nd half though was really appalling. I could live with the loss if we looked somewhat decent overall. We looked miles off in the 2nd half and they were missing Neymar(their best player), Cavani and Meuneir.

 

[lysglimt]

He's taken over a talented team who were relieved to simply see their previous manager leave, and he's then had a lovely run of games.

He was lucky to win against Spurs, and in a number of other games it was individual brilliance (Rashford and Pogba) that won the games.

He's done really well, make no mistake, and, as I've stated numerous times, with what he's shown thus far I think he's shown he's a better manager than the Cardiff showing - but I honestly think that a lot of Utd fans actually play down the actual size of the club and the size of the job of being Utd manager.

Pochettino has experience of PL footy at the top level, and has shown consistency over a number of years.

For me, I don't think OGS is at Elite level at present, and I believe firmly that Utd isn't a place for managers to learn on the go.

Pochettino has had nearly 5 years to build his Tottenham-side - during this time he has bought some really good players, and some really poor players. He inherited a squad where 3 of the players now are the keyplayers in his current Spurs-side (Eriksen, Kane and Lloris - granted Kane was just starting to find his feet in the P.L).

It took Spurs 2 full seasons with just ok results in the P.L and poor results in the C.L against much worse opposition than PSG - before they established themselves as a top-team in the Premier League.

Solskjaer has had less than 2 months, with no chance to sign the players he wants for the football he wants to play. And after one poor match against PSG he suddenly isn't good enough. Well - Pochettino who is your favourite lost to Gent in his 3rd season at Spurs. Clearly he should have been replaced by your logic.

Pochettino has had it easy - don't get me wrong, he has done a brilliant job. But he could operate with next to no pressure as nobody expected anything from Spurs, or Southampton. He was given time to build his team over 3-4 years with absolutely no pressure from the board or the fans. He was allowed to lose against Gent with no consequences.

Let Pochettino win something before we make him out to be the best manager in the World. It took Klopp a lot less time to turn a much worse team into contenders

I am not saying OGS is the greatest manager in the World - it is too early to tell. But people should also look at Pochettino slightly more critical than they do. He has won nothing, he has signed a bunch of crap players - and he builds clubs over a long periods of time. What happens when he is expected to deliever from day 1 ? Noone knows - because it has never been a demand for Pochettino - it will be a demand here.

 

[Bobcat]

Some United fans needs to take of the red tinted glasses they have. We played PSG at their weakest. This is PSG without one of the best footballer on the planet. We didn’t trouble Buffon and we looked void of any creativity in the attack. If this was City, Liverpool and to a lesser extent, Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea, they would have at least tested Buffon.

I saw Tuchel on the sideline screaming at Every misplaced passes and orchestrating how he wanted his team to play. He looked much more hungry for the victory than Ole did. After this game, I would say Tuchel has now bumped Ole from my second spot, but that may be a bit knee jerk of a reaction.

Either way, how we react in the next leg will be interesting. The playing ground will have even up with us losing Pogba and them without Neymar. Let see what type of performance Ole can showcase against PSG at their home. If Tuchel can put on such a performance at Old Trafford, we should be able to do the same at le parc des princes

It is a knee jerk reaction. Even without Neymar, they are an incredibly good side and when we lost Martial and Lingaard at the same time, it was always going to be an uphill battle. Both the team selection and the set up was fine. Parking the bus at home in a CL fixture is a bad idea and if we did just that and got a draw, im pretty sure the knives would be out regardless.

What would Poch have done? Magically turned Sanchez into a footballer and hacked the system and given Mata 99 pace? The notion that Lukaku who cant make an impact vs Fulham would have changed anything is laughable. If Poch was in the dugout tonight instead of Ole, playing with the same team, would you have thought: "Ah, beaten by PSG, time to go shopping for a new manager"

Fergie was here for 26 years, most would agree the best manager of all times. In that time he won the CL twice and he usually had much, much better squads than this one.

Disappointing result yes, but people who thought we were going to challenge for the CL with this squad needs a reality check

 

[Canagel]

Ole is well known to be a super sub. He is best at coming in to replace a player or manager and scoring important goals or managerial wins when the team is burnt out and need a fresh perspective.

He was never good enough to hold down a starting spot for himself. It will be a mistake for us to give him the starting job.

Let's use Ole like how Fergie always did and not forget the culture of our club.

probably the funniest thing I read here

 

[Thiagoal]

I'm not going to blame Ole for last night; we were playing one of the best teams in Europe and although he's done remarkably well so far let's not forget how pathetic these same players played last season against Seville and the beginning of this season also!

It took the great Sir Alex many seasons of Champions League football to develop a style and identity to get us challenging the top teams...with far better players! Ole is new to managing at this level so will take him a while to figure it out; and more importantly, get players in who can give PSG more of an even contest

 

[Tony247]

Ole is well known to be a super sub. He is best at coming in to replace a player or manager and scoring important goals or managerial wins when the team is burnt out and need a fresh perspective.

He was never good enough to hold down a starting spot for himself. It will be a mistake for us to give him the starting job.

Let's use Ole like how Fergie always did and not forget the culture of our club.

That is pretty hilarious criteria for to be a football manager.

 

[MikeKing]

Ole is well known to be a super sub. He is best at coming in to replace a player or manager and scoring important goals or managerial wins when the team is burnt out and need a fresh perspective.

He was never good enough to hold down a starting spot for himself. It will be a mistake for us to give him the starting job.

Let's use Ole like how Fergie always did and not forget the culture of our club.

I don't know what to say. That is.. deep. Wow.

 

[Treble]

Tactics was a bit too pragmatic. Should have been a little bit more adventurous and brave. Not a single quality chance created all game, that was insipid.

 

[KM]

He’s being judged game to game as if he’s a player. It’s very bizarre. As if every performance is a direct result of his actions, irrespective of result or context.

Well, this isn’t how it works. You make judgements based on a body of work over time. Like we judged Mourinho and Van Gaal for the worse. Or Ferguson for the better. We didn’t watch Ferguson’s team lose to a clearly superior Milan side and pick apart his minute-by-minute management of the team. We accepted the loss as a normal element of football; part and parcel of a season in which football matches are lost.

Some folk are even criticising his team talk. Talking about his Tuchel ‘done him over’ going into the second half. Like, where and when did this happen? And how?

It’s going to be a tedious end to the season if every match is going to be viewed in isolation like this. Bloody hell.

Agreed.

This place is become nauseating now. Any manager in the whole world would've struggled after losing two of their attackers in the first half due to injuries.

It's better to lose players through injuries before the match so that you can plan accordingly rather than losing them between in game.

Also this was PSG we are talking about and not fecking Sevilla

 

[Sarni]

Agreed.

This place is become nauseating now. Any manager in the whole world would've struggled after losing two of their attackers in the first half due to injuries.

It's better to lose players through injuries before the match so that you can plan accordingly rather than losing them between in game.

Also this was PSG we are talking about and not fecking Sevilla

Exactly. Everything that could have gone wrong in this game happened. Inept referee who refused to send off their player, losing two extremely important players at half time. Even if they weren’t playing that well they were still a threat at a counter and in Lingard’s case his pressing, which Mata and Sanchez could not replace, was important I felt.

We succumbed to a much stronger team in a game where we lost two key players at half time. Pochettino would not have fixed this either.

But I knew this would happen. It happened after Burnley game too. For some of our fans Ole will always have to win every single game for them to be happy.

 

[Fracture90]

Tough defeat but it was bound to happen eventually and a lot can be learned from it. Think our tactics last night were wrong, we didn't really have a go at them even before the injures. Last couple of games we're seemingly fallen into that trap of making only safe passes and we seem content to have DDG send a long ball as a means of starting an attack.

We're stopped playing those quick little intricate passes, those one-two's between the lines that make opposition players move out of position and create spaces for us. We should go back to that style of play because we do have some capable passers in our team.

Also when Mata was brought on for Martial, it killed any chance of us getting anything in the attack.

Let's see how we will rebound from this defeat.

 

[Adam_S]

Out of interest, how many Champions' League ties has Poch won against top class opposition? The words not and many spring to mind.

From what I can see, Ole has a clear idea of how he wants the team to play. He's got a first team squad that isn't bad and can manage to execute that plan fairly well but when we lose key players, the rest that come in are utter dross. Show me another manager that could have done substantially better with those players against a side like PSG.

 

[sglowrider]

Tough defeat but it was bound to happen eventually and a lot can be learned from it. Think our tactics last night were wrong, we didn't really have a go at them even before the injures. Last couple of games we're seemingly fallen into that trap of making only safe passes and we seem content to have DDG send a long ball as a means of starting an attack.

We're stopped playing those quick little intricate passes, those one-two's between the lines that make opposition players move out of position and create spaces for us. We should go back to that style of play because we do have some capable passers in our team.

Also when Mata was brought on for Martial, it killed any chance of us getting anything in the attack.

Let's see how we will rebound from this defeat.

PSG knows that where Pogba goes, United flows. They snuffed Paul out and as a result, we couldn't get any rhythm going.

 

[Fracture90]

PSG knows that where Pogba goes, United flows. They snuffed Paul out and as a result, we couldn't get any rhythm going.

Not just this game though, I've noticed that we've been doing this more and more lately.

 

[RORY65]

Exactly. Everything that could have gone wrong in this game happened. Inept referee who refused to send off their player, losing two extremely important players at half time. Even if they weren’t playing that well they were still a threat at a counter and in Lingard’s case his pressing, which Mata and Sanchez could not replace, was important I felt.

We succumbed to a much stronger team in a game where we lost two key players at half time. Pochettino would not have fixed this either.

But I knew this would happen. It happened after Burnley game too. For some of our fans Ole will always have to win every single game for them to be happy.

I would agree with pretty much all of that, I think Ole has done brilliantly in the time he has had to get results and, crucially, make fans look forward to games and be excited about United again but he can't overcome the issues in our squad which will need to be addressed over the next couple of windows whoever the manager. However in fairness I think the knee-jerk reactions to each match are partially because Solskjaer has no real track record so his suitability for the job is being judged on what he does within a short period as the caretaker whereas someone like Pochettino would at least have the basis of several years of really good work at Spurs.

 

[Drawfull]

I still don't quite get the love in for Pochettino and that he's somehow used as a yardstick to (beat?) Ole's record so far.

These are Spurs' last 9 seasons point totals (oldest first). If you didn't know, you'd be hard pushed to say where AVB/Sherwood et al left and Pochettino began:
70, 62, 69, 72, 69, 64, 70, 86!, 77 - he took over the season they managed 64 points. Spurs average points in the 4 seasons prior to his appointment was 68, after, 74. He inherited Kane (who back from loan would go on to be top scorer) and Eriksen (second top scorer). To be fair he brought in Dier (summer) and Alli (Jan). The rest of his purchases though that first summer were pretty shite with hindsight.

Looking at the whole, isn't it fairer to say that Spurs 'success' with regard to league position has come because of failures of the teams around them as opposed to some managerial magic wand? Combined with our shite since Fergie retired, the traditional yo-yo form of Abramovich's Chelsea reign, Wenger gradually getting worse / retiring, the red-hot form of Kane etc the stars have certainly aligned for Pochettino. Has he really improved them that much at all? Is 6 points a season average enough of an improvement? If he hits around 87 points this season (which they're on target for), it would bring his average gains to 8 points over Spurs' previous level. It could be argued that they're being a bit flattered at the moment too, since they haven't drawn at all this season. They've lost the joint most out of the top 6 clubs.

But of course, he's clearly not a bad manager, yet even his Southampton season wasn't all that special. That also coincided with several players coming through at the same time - many of which were snapped up at season's end by the traditional bigger clubs, including two of them to us in Shaw and Schneiderlin. At the time it was thought that these players, our two, the load Liverpool bought, etc, were good enough for the bigger clubs, yet he managed only 8th, 8 points off our poor return in 7th. The following seasons for Southampton were marked by continually selling their star players which has ultimately led to a massive downturn in results. Do we think had Pochettino stayed there, he would have ridden out the storm despite player losses? I'm not so sure.

Back to his time with Spurs, even in the season when everyone else lost their collective shit and Leicester won the league, he could only manage third. They had the league's top scorer that year in Kane, finished with the highest goal difference, the fewest goals conceded, but fluffed the race finishing 11 points off the pace in a three-horse race.

In the 86 point season (his third with Spurs), which was Pep's first at City, Klopp's second at Liverpool, Jose's first with us and Conte's first at Chelsea, he was the most experienced manager towards the top of league outside of Wenger. He again had the league's best striker in Kane. Yet still when all around him was falling apart, Conte rocks up and finishes 7 points clear. He still couldn't get them over the line. Thing is, if you have a striker that's averaging almost a goal per game then you're going to be there or thereabouts come the end of the season - see Leicester and Vardy. His teams lack discipline when under pressure, which I think is partly where the bottling accusations stem from. In the Leicester season, you could pretty much set your watch by Spurs, that if on 70 minutes they were losing / not winning, tempers would fray.

Overall, his consistency, points wise, seems to rely on a well-coached defence (could he polish ours, I don't know), and having one of the best strikers in the league combined with the failure of clubs around him. I'm just not sure he's all that, or if, at this cycle of the Premier League, he's just the best of a bad bunch behind Klopp and Pep.