Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

I feel like they’re now aiming to kill storylines in major episodes rather than people.

I read the director wanted the lighting to evolve with the episode, which would make sense if my eyes could also fecking evolve with it. I know that people want to portray realism in their shows but c’mon, increasing the lighting a bit would have done no harm.
 
sullydnl said:
I think they were supposed to be waiting for the NK to go for Bran and then they'd spring the dragons on him. But when Dany's horse guys got killed she went rogue and Jon followed? That was the "The NK is coming"/"The dead are already here" exchange they had.
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Ah right, i guess that makes sense?

Really weird that John was basically relegated to a side character for the episode though... Especially as it's been played as "his war" leading up to this.
 
That was so amazingly epic. I know some are unhappy that more characters didn't die off, but they will in the next battle. I think people are far too focused on who didn't die. Honestly never thought TV could be this epic, it puts some movies to shame.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Ah right, i guess that makes sense?

Really weird that John was basically relegated to a side character for the episode though... Especially as it's been played as "his war" leading up to this.
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Nah, I'm not sure it does really but I was happy enough to go along with it. :lol:
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I mean the battle was decent... But it's not on the level of Battle of the Bastards or Hardhome... I mean i could barely tell what was going on for the first half of it with all the quick cuts/fog/dark etc... I was watching in HD so it can't just be me surely?

I also don't understand what their battle strategy was meant to be? (Could someone outline this for me?) What were the Dothraki doing? And what were John and Daenerys meant to be doing? Why didn't they start by setting some walkers on fire? In fact, why was John on a dragon at all?! He did literally nothing in this episode... Which is kind of bizarre.

Still, at least all the brown folk died first...

There were still some really cool shots and moments (lighting all the swords / raising the die) and the production level was obviously high... I just wish I could have made it all out/ followed it a bit better!

The ending... Urgh. We've been building up the Night King since season one and that's it? Really didn't like Arya coming out of nowhere either... Just seemed incredibly lazy.
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We've discussed this for most of today and none of us can come up with any decent answers to any of your questions.

The only thing that might make sense is the Dothraki got overly excited and adrenaline kicked in when they got magical flaming swords and disobeyed orders and charged. But I would counter that argument by saying that you don't put your Dothraki Calvary at the front of your forces. It's a very dumb thing to do and Daenerys/Jorah should have known that. Also nobody had any lines along the lines of "why are they charging wtf!".

As for the Dragons, fecks knows mate. A total mess, I can only assume they decided both Dragons would go after the Night King rather than defend Winterfell, but that doesn't seem to fit either because they did use fire on the wights briefly. Then their GPS got all mixed up when the fog set in.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Horses don't charge with zero infantry support, unless you're talking about proper mounted Knights with lances/plate armour.

Light cavalry engaging in a frontal charge unsupported is suicide. They will be bogged down and cut apart as soon as they lose momentum. All effective light cavalry units throughout history harried the enemy with arrow volleys, hit the flanks, cycle charged and generally disrupted formations.

That plan was doomed from the start, but they had multiple competent commanders present and they should have known this. If they can't use the mobility of the cavalry then you may as well dismount and fight on foot.
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We're talking about a nomadic horse tribe who kill each other for fun. I don't think organised assaults are their thing, particularly when only about 4 people in the whole of Winterfell can speak both languages. We also have absolutely no idea what happened in that skirmish; the plan could well have been to cycle charge, to feign retreat, or to gain Intel, but when the enemy can wash over a spear wall like the sea over pebbles as demonstrated when the undead reached the unsullied, things change.
 
I'm not really arsed about people not dying... I know it's a big appeal for a lot of people with the "omg who is going to die next!?" ... But meh, if there's a story reason that makes sense it's better to keep people alive... Maybe?

Though having said that, I was thinkinh holy shit for a second at the end as I thought he killed Arya... So clearly I'm hypocrite
 
To be honest Endgame’s final battle scene has ruined this a bit for me. It’s a hard act to follow. :lol: Still a good episode, happy it was Arya in the end. Thought for a second she was pretending to be Bran. Also, Theon:(
 
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ivaldo said:
We're talking about a nomadic horse tribe who kill each other for fun. I don't think organised assaults are their thing, particularly when only about 4 people in the whole of Winterfell can speak both languages. We also have absolutely no idea what happened in that skirmish; the plan could well have been to cycle charge, but when the enemy can wash over a spear wall like the sea over pebbles, things chance.
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But why even charge at night against an unknown enemy? If your intention was to use the Calvary to scout or provoke then surely you'd get the dragons to put down some fire so they can actually see what they're doing? Letting your best warriors get head on against them is something that imo Jon Snow post hardhome would completely refuse to allow as a tactic. In daylight possibly, at night? No fecking way. It's suicide. There's no common sense.

I mean, our heroes have encountered undead bears which would rip horses to pieces. So they should have been more careful with the Calvary.
 
ivaldo said:
We're talking about a nomadic horse tribe who kill each other for fun. I don't think organised assaults are their thing, particularly when only about 4 people in the whole of Winterfell can speak both languages. We also have absolutely no idea what happened in that skirmish; the plan could well have been to cycle charge, but when the enemy can wash over a spear wall like the sea over pebbles, things chance.
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They're led by Westerosi and they aren't morons, they're perfectly capable of following instructions.

They don't even need to be particularly organised, just don't charge unaided in to the darkness without knowing what you're charging at. Even the dumbest commander ever would never order a mass charge in to the void.

It was just a dumb moment designed to get rid of expensive cavalry scenes and provide a bit of an 'oh shit' moment, but it was lazy imo. You know the enemy have hundreds of thousands of zombies and feck knows what else they've reanimated, so you just charge in to the darkness without scouting?

Not to mention the very important fact that your enemy can resurrect the dead. Throw in part of your army without support and even if they're semi-successful they will eventually get bogged down and that's 40 thousand warriors who are now on the enemy side.
 
VidaRed said:
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That’s the one. What is even more odd, she was talking like she really knew what she was talking about regarding stuff no one else would know about Varys. Seemed to be at least on par with Melisandre, at least in magic stuff.

Then she’s never seen again...
 
RedSky said:
But why even charge at night against an unknown enemy? If your intention was to use the Calvary to scout or provoke then surely you'd get the dragons to put down some fire so they can actually see what they're doing? Letting your best warriors get head on against them is something that imo Jon Snow post hardhome would completely refuse to allow as a tactic. In daylight possibly, at night? No fecking way. It's suicide. There's no common sense.

I mean, our heroes have encountered undead bears which would rip horses to pieces. So they should have been more careful with the Calvary.
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The dragons were originally there to ambush the night King when he arrived. Dany clearly disobeyed that plan when she interfered.

They aren't their best warriors, the Unsullied are comfortably better.

So you wait for the unknown to charge you? That nullifies your horsemen.
 
I wish they'd shown arya actually making her way to the NK... Or at least something to set up the ending. Really felt cheap to me... Though i guess a lot of people will think it's cool so maybe I'm just a miserable git.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
They're led by Westerosi and they aren't morons, they're perfectly capable of following instructions.

They don't even need to be particularly organised, just don't charge unaided in to the darkness without knowing what you're charging at. Even the dumbest commander ever would never order a mass charge in to the void.

It was just a dumb moment designed to get rid of expensive cavalry scenes and provide a bit of an 'oh shit' moment, but it was lazy imo. You know the enemy have hundreds of thousands of zombies and feck knows what else they've reanimated, so you just charge in to the darkness without scouting?

Not to mention the very important fact that your enemy can resurrect the dead. Throw in part of your army without support and even if they're semi-successful they will eventually get bogged down and that's 40 thousand warriors who are now on the enemy side.
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Aye, I think that's ultimately the problem. The writers decided to pursue set pieces that looked cool, over set pieces that made sense. Peter Jackson does this far too often.
 
I wasn't bothered about the death toll.

Theon and Jorah are both main characters who have been around since S1, that's two big deaths. Four if you count Ed and Melisandre, though that would be a stretch.

I'm sure a good few more will die in the remaining episodes.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
They're led by Westerosi and they aren't morons, they're perfectly capable of following instructions.

They don't even need to be particularly organised, just don't charge unaided in to the darkness without knowing what you're charging at. Even the dumbest commander ever would never order a mass charge in to the void.

It was just a dumb moment designed to get rid of expensive cavalry scenes and provide a bit of an 'oh shit' moment, but it was lazy imo. You know the enemy have hundreds of thousands of zombies and feck knows what else they've reanimated, so you just charge in to the darkness without scouting?

Not to mention the very important fact that your enemy can resurrect the dead. Throw in part of your army without support and even if they're semi-successful they will eventually get bogged down and that's 40 thousand warriors who are now on the enemy side.
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At what point would they be aware of what they were facing? As shown by the Dothrakis face upon contact, visibility was atrocious. If they didn't attack, it would be the undead with the momentum and the Dothraki would've been completely fecked.

Btw. I wish people would stop calling everything they disagree with lazy. The writers have asked for a little suspension of disbelief in a situation with enough variables that we can't say for certain what the intention was, in order to create a pretty epic scene.

That was going to happen regardless. It's unavoidable. Does it not make more sense to leave your dead hundreds of yards away from your castle wall, as opposed to in and around it?
 
I hope we find out more about the NK, his motives for wanting to exterminate humanity, all of that jazz. Part of the reason people are disappointed in his death I think is because nothing is really explained, him and the white walkers are an interesting/mysterious force and you had a few moments in this episode where it looked like he wasn't just an emotionless death machine.
 
Very dark episode, so I'm glad none of the main cast died. I want to actually see them get butchered. Very enjoyable though. Felt so epic.

Two questions:

What the feck was Bran doing playing with crows? That better be answered at some point.

Why the feck is that cnut Sansa still alive?
 
ivaldo said:
The dragons were originally there to ambush the night King when he arrived. Dany clearly disobeyed that plan when she interfered.

They aren't their best warriors, the Unsullied are comfortably better.

So you wait for the unknown to charge you? That nullifies your horsemen.
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No feckin way, Dothraki are feared across the entire globe as being the best warriors. They sack cities on a whim, we've been told this from Season 1.

I cannot for the life of me see how either dragon can ambush the night king when they're so bloody large.

Your Light Calvary is used to break the opposition when the opposition gets pinned down. Not to ride out and meet whatever lurks in the darkness head on. Jon Snow has said for two seasons that they need every man and yet he allows the Dothraki (a considerable number of their army) to charge at the start of the battle against unknown enemy? It would have made far more sense for the Dothraki to charge when the Wights were stuck briefly at the trench system. Or to give up their horses and man the walls as they are still very good fighters off horseback as shown in the gold train attack or even way back in Season 1 with the Wedding deaths.

Simply charging them head first into the darkness is how I used to play Total War as a 10 year old.
 
Jaimie killing Cersei would be a fitting end. Have a good feeling dany will die in the final war.
 
Do people in general rank this above or below the Battle of The Bastards?

For me it's definitely below.
 
ivaldo said:
At what point would they be aware of what they were facing? As shown by the Dothrakis face upon contact, visibility was atrocious.
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They had catapults that fired flaming rounds, they had dragons that can pour fire on the floor. They had methods of lighting the area outside of the castle. Alternatively, they could have just waited until daylight, it wasn't like the dead made it clear they were attacking at that very moment, the Dothraki engaged first.
 
ivaldo said:
At what point would they be aware of what they were facing? As shown by the Dothrakis face upon contact, visibility was atrocious. If they didn't attack, it would be the undead with the momentum and the Dothraki would've been completely fecked.

Btw. I wish people would stop calling everything they disagree with lazy. The writers have asked for a little suspension of disbelief in a situation with enough variables that we can't say for certain what the intention was, in order to create a pretty epic scene.

That was going to happen regardless. It's literally unavoidable.
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They have light outside the walls. They also have infantry support and potentially archers, and positions where they can hold the enemy rather than charging aimlessly at them with no hope of actually achieving anything.

What, more fecked than dead in about 20 seconds because they charged without knowing what they were doing and with nobody nearby to help them? Look at how much better the packed infantry fighting from defensive positions fared. The dothraki would have been more use in a support role on foot behind the unsullied, cutting apart anybody who gets through the gaps, helping to fight in hand to hand combat on the walls etc. That's 40 thousand more men helping to stop the dead breaching the walls.

Instead that 40k was thrown away for no reason, blindly. I don't get how you can possibly justify that as a sound tactical decision. The dothraki are superb individual warriors, either on horseback or on foot. In this situation the horses were not needed since it was a battle with no visibility in front of a defensive position. Dismount and keep them within the castle, it's not really that hard.

It is lazy. A competent commander does not make that decision, especially commanders who have great experience with the enemy they are fighting and how dangerous they are. There's a reason they didn't decide to march on the NK and fight him in the open field.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Do people in general rank this above or below the Battle of The Bastards?

For me it's definitely below.
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BoB is above it, it was a far more satisfying experience. I'd have it as a top 10 episode, perhaps top 5 but thats only on cinematic/music score. Story wise i'd rank it pretty low, i'm a little annoyed about how dumb parts of the episode were. waited a long time for this episode and to me it was under whelming, my opinion may change in the next few weeks though.
 
Rewatched the NK death scene multiple times now. It's incredibly well done with the music. Just ignore Jon Snow yelling at a zombie dragon like a twat in the middle of it.
 
Minimalist said:
Rewatched the NK death scene multiple times now. It's incredibly well done with the music. Just ignore Jon Snow yelling at a zombie dragon like a twat in the middle of it.
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I was really hoping they'd show the NK go on a rampage taking out everyone, wouldn't care how he died after. Disappointing he did nothing in the end really.
 
RedSky said:
No feckin way, Dothraki are feared across the entire globe as being the best warriors. They sack cities on a whim, we've been told this from Season 1.

I cannot for the life of me see how either dragon can ambush the night king when they're so bloody large.

Your Light Calvary is used to break the opposition when the opposition gets pinned down. Not to ride out and meet whatever lurks in the darkness head on. Jon Snow has said for two seasons that they need every man and yet he allows the Dothraki (a considerable number of their army) to charge at the start of the battle against unknown enemy? It would have made far more sense for the Dothraki to charge when the Wights were stuck briefly at the trench system. Or to give up their horses and man the walls as they are still very good fighters off horseback as shown in the gold train attack or even way back in Season 1 with the Wedding deaths.

Simply charging them head first into the darkness is how I used to play Total War as a 10 year old.
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Yes fecking way. The unsullied are quite literally bred for battle. Their balls are chopped off to remove any urge that distracts from their sole purpose in life. At the battle of Qohor 3,000 Unsullied stop 20,000 Dothraki. There's no debate.

They're a mile away from the battle. Their sole job was to fight the Night King. They had zero chance of winning that battle any other way. Dragons or no dragons. Besides, the Night King literally catches them unawares, despite being on an equally enormous dragon.

Again, you're comparing them to an actual fighting unit. They're raiders that go into blood frenzies. And they're fighting hordes of the undead, a giant and a dragon. We don't know if the intent was to meet them or to gather intel or feign retreat. We don't know if they wanted the honour of attacking first. We aren't given enough information to make an informed decision.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Do people in general rank this above or below the Battle of The Bastards?

For me it's definitely below.
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I’d have to watch it once it’s remastered in the visible spectrum of the human eye, but probably below that, Hardhome, and Blackwater.

I’m also partial to the Spoils of War caravan; could watch the first few minutes on a loop...
 
RedSky said:
They had catapults that fired flaming rounds, they had dragons that can pour fire on the floor. They had methods of lighting the area outside of the castle. Alternatively, they could have just waited until daylight, it wasn't like the dead made it clear they were attacking at that very moment, the Dothraki engaged first.
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Seems to me they were pretty well informed they were attacking at that moment. They also have Bran. I think you're being pretty ambitious if you think a half dozen catapults are going to do the job from a mile away. And if you think it's stupid sending the Dothraki into the unknown, why the feck would sending your dragon in be any better?
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I wish they'd shown arya actually making her way to the NK... Or at least something to set up the ending. Really felt cheap to me... Though i guess a lot of people will think it's cool so maybe I'm just a miserable git.
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I think the reason they didn't show it, is cause it would spoil the surprise. If you could see her coming, there'd be no suspense at the end.
 
MrMarcello said:
Little OTT at this bar. It's a fecking TV show not a walk-off homerun to win the Series or Ole scoring in the 90+3 against Bayern.

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Mate that's England fans from the WC in the summer. Call yourself a football fan and didn't even recognise the scene. Tsk tsk tsk
 
Habs said:
I was really hoping they'd show the NK go on a rampage taking out everyone, wouldn't care how he died after. Disappointing he did nothing in the end really.
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He did raise the dead which was one of the highlights of the episode for me... But yeah, weird how the two main protagonists in this storyline did the least in the episode itself
 
Habs said:
I was really hoping they'd show the NK go on a rampage taking out everyone, wouldn't care how he died after. Disappointing he did nothing in the end really.
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He's never done that ever though? The army does his work and then if needed his other commander dudes get involved. He always just walks into the carnage cool as a cucumber. Makes complete sense to me.
 
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