Reparations discussion

adexkola said:
They would probably oppose reparations owed to Native Americans or Hispanic Americans as well. So I guess I can modify my statement to say they would hold racist attitudes towards African Americans and other minorities.
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Do you believe that to be more likely than financial reasons for opposing reparations?
 
Shamwow said:
If it was increasing funding in certain areas that will have been disadvantaged by slavery then I think it would be a good idea. It would be a way of correcting at least some of the long-term inequality that slavery and everything that surrounded it created.
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Seems far and away the best option to me. Harder to make sure it's being used for the right stuff, but surely a bigger benefit.
 
caid said:
How would settlements be calculated or made then? Do you make payments to individual descendants or community spending? How much records do you have from the slavery period? Trying to quantify more recent civil rights issues against the wider black community sounds complicated. Its good that you're at least trying to address it anyway
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How would settlements be calculated? There are different options out there. I dont think calculus is needed. Just a good understanding of fractions, calculating NPVs and shit would be enough.

Could be either or both. Housing grants, infrastructure aimed at black neighborhoods and inner cities, or straight cash/bonds. Thats all minutae though.

A lot of records exist from the slavery and beyond period. There's this thing called libraries, journals, research. The kind of thing a congressional committee would dig up.

It's complicated. A lot of things in life are. Thank goodness society doesn't stop at the simple things.
 
It shouldn't be based on what your family suffered but where you are right now.

My great grandad build his life from nothing but I am at a good place now. However, there are bunch of ghettos near where I live. These people are never going to get the chance to get out and claim their own life unless they get a little lucky.

They need a kickstart. "trailer trash" and "ghettos" -- level the playing field for these kids.
 
Sweet Square said:
Yep but also

And really interesting piece here

I'm not sure how possible reparations are under capitalism.
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I think one of Coates' central issues with the democratic socialism models and class unity to a certain extent is that class unity can begin to seem a bit hollow to some members of the African American community when many other working class groups joined in with and benefited from their exploitation in order to advance themselves.

And while more socialist models can result in demonstrable improvements for the lives of African Americans, there's still that sense that it doesn't reduce the disparity or inequality between them and other groups specifically, at best improving things for everyone (a noble goal of course) but still inevitably leaving African Americans at the bottom of the pile and tacitly ignoring some aspects of the systemic discrimination they've faced.
 
adexkola said:
Yeah and that sketch was really hilarious but it has nothing to do with this serious issue.
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Don't get me wrong, man. I'd be all for it. Many black people have suffered enough throughout history. Would only be right to do something back imo.
 
shamans said:
It shouldn't be based on what your family suffered but where you are right now.

My great grandad build his life from nothing but I am at a good place now. However, there are bunch of ghettos near where I live. These people are never going to get the chance to get out and claim their own life unless they get a little lucky.

They need a kickstart. "trailer trash" and "ghettos" -- level the playing field for these kids.
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Well yes but these people are at where they are right now directly because of what their families suffered. If you're grandmother was poor because she was exploited in a system which literally regarded her as being subhuman then it's natural you aren't going to be as well-off as someone who was given a ton of advantages in life.
 
Thaddeus Stevens made this argument long ago, and the longer it went on the more inadequate reparations became. A plot of land, the right to vote and access to public education in 1870 far outweigh any paltry sum of money the US government can offer presently.
 
Cheesy said:
Well yes but these people are at where they are right now directly because of what their families suffered. If you're grandmother was poor because she was exploited in a system which literally regarded her as being subhuman then it's natural you aren't going to be as well-off as someone who was given a ton of advantages in life.
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But whatever happened happened and we should focus on the people who aren't well off right now.

You simple can't create the sort of "equality" you're aiming for by looking at what our forefathers went through. The best thing to do is focus on what's in front of you now.
 
shamans said:
But whatever happened happened and we should focus on the people who aren't well off right now.

You simple can't create the sort of "equality" you're aiming for by looking at what our forefathers went through. The best thing to do is focus on what's in front of you now.
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Well sure, but the exact point being made with the argument for reparations is that African Americans are disproportionately poor (speaking generally) compared to a lot of the US population. And that's directly because of history. We don't exist in a vacuum - our circumstances are affected by what's happened before us and it's silly to pretend otherwise.
 
@Sweet Square so I've kind of done some speed reading of those passages. The first and second essays try and frame this debate within the context of class struggle, and argue that under a platform like Democratic socialism, such grievances will be swept away. I disagree, and I think this is one of the reasons why the black vote has been somewhat cool on the likes of Sanders. The Roaring Twenties were aptly named because of the booming economy. That coincided with what some scholars have called the nadir of the Black experience in America, where African Americans were locked out of that economic boom (while being lynched by the way). One may say that it was unbridled capitalism, but there is no guarantee that a race-blind economic strategy will address and correct the wrongs wrought, so that the aggrieved can say they are on a level playing field. They are not now. And applying benefits across the board will not correct that.

The last essay just lacks the misguided honesty of the first 2, and points at blacks that acquiesced to predatory schemes (hatched by white led and biased organizations and governments) as proof that what? Yes, there are inequalities within the African American community and there are the few that broke through and live in PG County, but that pales compared to the average vs average. A solution where reparations is selectively applied does much more than saying that because a few made it through, then no correction is needed
 
adexkola said:
How would settlements be calculated? There are different options out there. I dont think calculus is needed. Just a good understanding of fractions, calculating NPVs and shit would be enough.

Could be either or both. Housing grants, infrastructure aimed at black neighborhoods and inner cities, or straight cash/bonds. Thats all minutae though.

A lot of records exist from the slavery and beyond period. There's this thing called libraries, journals, research. The kind of thing a congressional committee would dig up.

It's complicated. A lot of things in life are. Thank goodness society doesn't stop at the simple things.
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Libraries can burn down, records can be lost. I dont know how thorough American historical records are. What would be suitable compensation for someone who was lynched? Do you just have a presidential apology / monument as an attempt at recognition or do you try and put a cash value to it (which is pretty fecking grim but probably the most helpful thing you can offer)
 
adexkola said:
@Sweet Square so I've kind of done some speed reading of those passages. The first and second essays try and frame this debate within the context of class struggle, and argue that under a platform like Democratic socialism, such grievances will be swept away. I disagree, and I think this is one of the reasons why the black vote has been somewhat cool on the likes of Sanders. The Roaring Twenties were aptly named because of the booming economy. That coincided with what some scholars have called the nadir of the Black experience in America, where African Americans were locked out of that economic boom (while being lynched by the way). One may say that it was unbridled capitalism, but there is no guarantee that a race-blind economic strategy will address and correct the wrongs wrought, so that the aggrieved can say they are on a level playing field. They are not now. And applying benefits across the board will not correct that.

The last essay just lacks the misguided honesty of the first 2, and points at blacks that acquiesced to predatory schemes (hatched by white led and biased organizations and governments) as proof that what? Yes, there are inequalities within the African American community and there are the few that broke through and live in PG County, but that pales compared to the average vs average. A solution where reparations is selectively applied does much more than saying that because a few made it through, then no correction is needed
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And even those who did break through were still fairly limited in what they could achieve compared to other people - access to political power, for example, was still very much limited. Even now, someone like Obama was only able to succeed because of how highly regarded he was and because of the fact that he's very erudite and intelligent - the bar was set much higher for him than it would have been for a lot of other candidates, and throughout his presidency he was then dogged with different accusations to try and undermine his legitimacy for said office because America has tons of people who don't think someone like him should have access to political power.
 
caid said:
Libraries can burn down, records can be lost. I dont know how thorough American historical records are. What would be suitable compensation for someone who was lynched? Do you just have a presidential apology / monument as an attempt at recognition or do you try and put a cash value to it (which is pretty fecking grim but probably the most helpful thing you can offer)
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Thankfully the racists didn't get to the libraries containing slave records to burn them. I think they're still stuck at the churches.

Our historical records are very thorough. We have good guys like @Carolina Red manning the fort on that.

Good question regarding what the suitable amount of compensation would be. We have enough unemployed PhDs who can work on coming up with different models to see what the NPV estimate of value extorted from the black population through slavery and racist Jim Crow/de-facto segregation are. Do that and apply the benefit at a flat rate. Or apply it towards the inner cities. That's a minor issue.
 
adexkola said:
Thankfully the racists didn't get to the libraries containing slave records to burn them. I think they're still stuck at the churches.

Our historical records are very thorough. We have good guys like @Carolina Red manning the fort on that.

Good question regarding what the suitable amount of compensation would be. We have enough unemployed PhDs who can work on coming up with different models to see what the NPV estimate of value extorted from the black population through slavery and racist Jim Crow/de-facto segregation are. Do that and apply the benefit at a flat rate. Or apply it towards the inner cities. That's a minor issue.
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I'm not sure all forms of discrimination have a specific financial value. Is covering the expected earnings of a guy murdered young all you ask for? Should there not be some pretty significant secondary reparation to be made for discrimination that fell outside financial extortion?
 
adexkola said:
so let's start with all those who have identified as black in the last 10 years, filter out blacks who aren't descendants of American slaves (like myself) and then go from there, it's not rocket science
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Some pragmatic issues this would run into...

How many slave ancestors would make you eligible, and, do you exclude people who aren’t black who have black slave ancestors?
 
caid said:
I'm not sure all forms of discrimination have a specific financial value. Is covering the expected earnings of a guy murdered young all you ask for? Should there not be some pretty significant secondary reparation to be made for discrimination that fell outside financial extortion?
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Wrongful death claims are settled in civil court every day. It is not out of the blue to attach a financial figure to a lynching. Is that sufficient? No. Will anything be sufficient to compensate for the centuries of oppression? No. Does that mean nothing should be done?

But since you asked, memorials, museums, educational programs on America's past in this regard, a yearly and peaceful re-enactment of Sherman's March to the Sea... That will do alongside the money
 
adexkola said:
Given the history of this country? It would be burying your head in the sand to believe otherwise. That said, a lot of people do that when it comes to race, so I wouldn't be surprised.
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But what about non-racist Americans who oppose reparations solely because of financial motivations? How would you convince them to agree with it.
 
This actually somewhat brings me to the topic of monarchies. Which is another discussion, sure. But the whole "I'm not paying you for the suffering of your ancestors" rhetoric can be applied to monarchies.
As in, "I'm not paying you for the deeds of your ancestors".

But like I said, that's another discussion.
 
Pay it and pursue the estates of slave owners families with remaining assets over $500k to repay the tax payers as much as is reasonable.

Hopefully the poor white Americans struggling in arse nowhere Michigan will see it as justice rather than something taken from them.
 
Seems like a noble goal but a really hamfisted way of going about it. Having people pay reparations for things they weren't personally involved in is likely to do nothing but create more resentment instead of working towards healing and reconciliation.

If you really want to improve the lot of impoverished (minority) communities, the better solution is direct investment of tax money - social housing, roads, schools, hospitals, misc infrastructure. Shared growth instead of tit-for-tat antagonism.
 
Should the descendants of slaves be paid reparations by the federal government? Proponents of this idea say that the effects of slavery are still relevant today, and that the American government should provide some form of additional support to offset these disadvantages. Opponents either balk at the idea that slavery still affects African-American communities, or see the concept as an impractical political non-starter. The Democratic candidates for president are weighing in, many of whom have expressed interest in considering the idea. Today on the show, we’ll talk about reparations and the politics around them with Princeton assistant professor of African American studies KEEANGA-YAMAHTTA TAYLOR, and ADOLPH REED Jr., professor of political science and economics at the University of Pennsylvania.
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https://whyy.org/episodes/the-reparations-debate/


IMO she had the better of the debate initially but towards the middle he made stronger points. Both were poor and evasive towards the end.
 
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Drainy said:
Hopefully the poor white Americans struggling in arse nowhere Michigan will see it as justice rather than something taken from them.
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Good luck with that. Probably the best skill western governments possess these days is the ability to make people think that their problems are due to people that look different to them, rather than the governments themselves doing a poor job.
 
ctp said:
Seems like a noble goal but a really hamfisted way of going about it. Having people pay reparations for things they weren't personally involved in is likely to do nothing but create more resentment instead of working towards healing and reconciliation.

If you really want to improve the lot of impoverished minority communities, the better solution is direct investment of tax money - social housing, roads, schools, hospitals, misc infrastructure. Shared growth instead of tit-for-tat antagonism.
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People might not have been actively involved in lynchings and the like but they've indirectly benefited from it in that they've often found themselves in improved social circumstances compared to disadvantaged African Americans. There's always going to be resentment if there's a refusal to acknowledge that basic fact.
 
Cheesy said:
Well sure, but the exact point being made with the argument for reparations is that African Americans are disproportionately poor (speaking generally) compared to a lot of the US population. And that's directly because of history. We don't exist in a vacuum - our circumstances are affected by what's happened before us and it's silly to pretend otherwise.
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No one is. That's why I'm saying targeting the current poverty (mostly there due to the past) is the best way to counter this than just catering for anyone whose ancestors suffered.
 
Cheesy said:
People might not have been actively involved in lynchings and the like but they've indirectly benefited from it in that they've often found themselves in improved social circumstances compared to disadvantaged African Americans. There's always going to be resentment if there's a refusal to acknowledge that basic fact.
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That's neither here nor there. You can't choose the circumstances of your birth, everyone has advantages or disadvantages based on the circumstances of their ancestors. Tackling poverty should be a goal everywhere, it's not that relevant what the original causes were as long as they don't continue to apply.
 
Carolina Red said:
Some pragmatic issues this would run into...

How many slave ancestors would make you eligible, and, do you exclude people who aren’t black who have black slave ancestors?
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Historically, discrimination and racism operated on the one drop rule. So I'd say 1 slave ancestor would suffice, plus being able to prove you've identified as black on a verifiable document (tax return, census records, etc). If you have black slave ancestors yet did not identify as black for any reason, avoiding the disadvantages being black in America held, then you would not be eligible. Devil's in the details of course.
 
Drainy said:
Presumably their descendants still exist?

It's not like the surviving Hitler family pact not to breed..

In an ideal world the descendants of slaves should pursue the estates directly, but realistically it's expensive without legal aid.
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Their descendants never owned slaves.
 
adexkola said:
Historically, discrimination and racism operated on the one drop rule. So I'd say 1 slave ancestor would suffice, plus being able to prove you've identified as black on a verifiable document (tax return, census records, etc).
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Alright, the 1 slave ancestor makes sense. As to the 2nd part...

I don’t understand the need to currently identify as black if you have a slave ancestor and the reparations are for slavery.
 
It's such a convoluted situation per usual when the US government is involved with societal issues, let alone trying to repair/compensate for slavery.

For one thing, this is technically a federal/country issue because slavery impacted the nation (i.e. Civil War, civil rights movement, etc.)...however slavery was 'isolated' (probably not sure on this, so feel free to correct) in the Southern states where slavery was legal. But then as someone who pays, local, state and federal taxes in the US...why should I have to theoretically pay/support for reparations that occurred well before so many states became part of the United States (i.e. California became part of the Union way, way after slavery was abolished and last time I checked, California is not geographically close to slave states).

In other words, why should I have to be accountable for 'new' reparations or the government's failure to compensate these communities? Why now?

The 13 state governments that actively participated in slavery (i.e. the Southern states, as far as I know or whichever states in addition to that - but there were slave states loyal/sided with the Union), through the federal government...should be the ones who have to pay for reparations through better funding, resources, etc..

And providing monetary aid to those who have been impacted by slavery can get extremely messy. Who benefits, how much, for how long, in what way (cash, credit, resources, land, etc.). And what geographic locations would benefit? Descendants of slaves from Africa or wherever that are still living in the United States are all over the country. I don't think the reparations, especially in monetary form, will make a big impact. I agree with the funding going towards programs and building systems that can increase/elevate African-American communities who have been at a disadvantage since slavery...but then majority of this was in the South?

And who is going to be in control of these benefits and how they get allocated to the descendants? The government of the US...already an example of how not to allocate or just use public funds for a greater good.

Overall, descendants from slaves should be supported. Who should be responsible for the reparations shouldn't be placed on the entire US population...that's more of a societal issue(s). But in terms of reparations, payments, compensation...I think that should come from the federal government and the states that actively, openly participated in slavery.
 
VorZakone said:
But what about non-racist Americans who oppose reparations solely because of financial motivations? How would you convince them to agree with it.
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Tell them to read a book? I don't know, you're either with the cause or against it, regardless of your motivations.

shamans said:
No one is. That's why I'm saying targeting the current poverty (mostly there due to the past) is the best way to counter this than just catering for anyone whose ancestors suffered.
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That doesn't address the issue, and as I've mentioned to someone else, past periods of prosperity and benefits have coincided with that very prosperity and benefits being withheld from Black Americans. So less of the same and more of a targeted solution.
 
adexkola said:
That doesn't address the issue, and as I've mentioned to someone else, past periods of prosperity and benefits have coincided with that very prosperity and benefits being withheld from Black Americans. So less of the same and more of a targeted solution.
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Like I said, 90 percent of the ghettos are black Americans. Target them. And also the trailer homes.
 
Carolina Red said:
Alright, the 1 slave ancestor makes sense. As to the 2nd part...

I don’t understand the need to currently identify as black if you have a slave ancestor and the reparations are for slavery.
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It's not just slavery. It's being kept from enjoying in the New Deal, it's being blocked from low cost FHA loans (huge factor into the racial wealth gap), not being able to utilize the GI Bill benefits well into the 70s...

Not saying you're doing this but the biggest opponents of such an initiative are under the impression that everything was kosher after 1865.
 
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