Why assume that any reperations given to black people would not be used to improve these things?
Anyway, reperations? Yes, needs to be addressed.
Reparations discussion
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Anyway, reperations? Yes, needs to be addressed.
I agree that reparations are the morally right thing to do but a failure to sort out the rigged systems render those reparations almost useless. What's the point of giving the decendant of a slave $50,000 for examole when he doesn't have access to health care, when his children can't go to university? The two are not mutually exclusive but to me, one seems more important. And in a shithole like the American political system, reparations to a specific group could make making the lives of minorities better and giving them social and economic independence, harder. The right will weaponize is.
Yes. This now becomes an argument about how reparations are handled.
Agreed, fixing the underlying systems is important and necessary. As you said, both are not mutually exclusive.
He obviously didn't abolish it very well! France continued to practice slavery until after it had been abolished in Britain.
In the colonies. Which didn’t exist in 1315. Read a book.
I wouldn't trust the US government to administer it personally. Maybe if they set up a committee or something? I think handing out a cheque to black citizens probably wouldn't be as significant or as helpful as investment in the community. I think wider structural / societal problems require their own solution. I'm not convinced tying slavery reparations to that is a good plan, just seems a good way to kick it down the road for a wider change that never comes. The $50,000 might not solve all their problems but it'll pay for their kid to go to college (i expect? how crazy are your college fees nowadays?) which is better than nothing.
You're not going to get reparations off the Roman Empire, or the US government.
How exactly can the US government be held to account, and for what? The actions of people who have been dead for over 100 years? The idea that a government pays reparations is in itself nonsense: governments by and large don't have money (excepting perhaps despotic regimes). Any money paid out would come from the nation's current taxpayers, and how exactly are they to blame for what happened centuries before they were born?
Not buying into the current fashion for moral tokenism doesn't make someone a bigot, and I can assure you that I'm not remotely prejudiced concerning race (or anything else I can think of for that matter).
They're not to blame, they are responsible. The country they were born to, they lifestyle they enjoy was built on explicit and implicit slavery in the very recent past. Personally the US government beingg forced to invest in black communities just seems like a good thing, whatever the reasoning. I'd support it on that if nothing else
Yeah, you have a good amount who've migrated from either Africa or the Caribbean after the 1960s. They were not stolen from, so reparations would not apply to them.
Regarding the bolded, I'm not sure what areas you are referring to.
Those are problems that can be fixed, independent of health care. All Americans deserve access to health care, and a good education without going bankrupt.
The problem is that addressing that for all Americans, does not address the theft of wealth from the African American community.
So yeah, run them their coins. And give all Americans free health care.
Because I don't think 50 cent would really benefit from reperations, there is a limited amount of resources in this world/country -- spend it on the actual ghettos. like I said 90 percent of that reason poor black people live in ghettos is due to what happened in the past so it will cover that and some more.
The point, like I keep saying, should be to level the playing field. There are people who simply won't get a chance and we need to give them that chance. The poor black teen living in a ghetto because his ancestors were enslaved is no more or less deserving than the recent first generation Ethiopian immigrant to the U.S, also living in the ghetto.
They will most likely set up an official committee if a progressive Democrat takes over the White House and/or the Senate is regained.
Governments should invest in their communities. They have a responsibility to, full stop. Failing to do that in black communities and then doing that is not reparations. It's common sense. So do that, and then hand out a $50K check to the aggrieved.
Who wouldn't benefit from a fixed sum of money in the bank, or a tax credit? It equals more money, more equity, which gives you more options.
Government should be spending money on the actual ghettos. Bringing ghettos up to speed is not reparations, it's the responsibility of the government to do that anyways. You're conflating that with the return of stolen value to African Americans. And yes, African American who are descendants of slaves are more deserving of reparations than a first generation Ethiopian immigrant to the U.S, who lived in the ghetto. I can say that because I'm a second generation immigrant to the U.S, who didn't grow up in splendor, but didn't have to undergo the trauma this country has wrought on African Americans who are descendants of slaves. I don't begrudge them what they're owed.
That is BS then and the sort of flawed logic being applied for reparations.
So a poorer black person from Caribbean, who also is very likely to be poor because his ancestors were enslaved, does not get reparations but someone living in America since the days of slavery does?
Could you even imagine two 15 year old black kids in a ghetto highschool -- "Hey, I got a scholarship because my ancestors were slaves in America and you get to stay in this shite hole because yours came from Caribbean"
Almost gets me angry that some of you would rather root for a fantasy story of "paying back the black community" rather than what would ACTUALLY benefit people.
First of all, I meant 50cent the singer. Second the bolded part is ridiculous and this logic of "I can say it because" means nothing unless you can back it up.
If you really want to go down this route, then you have not grown up near a ghetto. I have, right in Durham North Carolina. Let me tell you that a black teen whose ancestors were Ghanian slaves suffers no worse or less than a second generation African immigrant. They are both disadvantaged, and need help to level the playing field, period.
Go to the projects for a change and tell them to their face that one of you is more deserving of a helping hand than the other because of your ancestors.
No. I'll personalize this. I, born to parents who migrated from Africa in the 80's, do not get reparations from the United States government as payback for the value taken from my ancestors due to slavery or discriminatory practices, because that was not at the hands of the U.S. government. If Britain wants to do their own investigation and hand out some reparations I'll line up there
Yes, they do, because of the value taken from their ancestors in slavery and Jim Crow.
Yes, because I'm black. And I assure you, I don't know anyone around me who would think like that. We would be happy that African Americans, descendants of slaves, locked out of the social welfare programs of the first 70 years of the 20th century, are getting their right dues. And no, we have the privilege of not being encumbered by that legacy, so we have more tools to make it out of these "shitholes" as you say.
You're angry on who's behalf?Oh, not sure how I missed that. Yeah, he and the other black millionaires can be exempted I guess, if that's your main concern.
I'm not going to validate my personal circumstances. I will say that I disagree with the bolded, and for the sake of not derailing this thread I'll leave it at that. But if you feel any sort of jealousy, you need to let some love and compassion in your heart
I wasn't familiar with the story of Louis X. I'm still not sure whether he was motivated by an abhorrence towards slavery, or a romantic notion that France was a free country. Slavery in Europe had been very much on the decline since about 1000 and was nowhere near as commonplace as it became later, so the the actions of Louis X were not as big a deal as perhaps it seems.
The fact remains that France was active in the slave trade, and the use of slaves, for a very long time after 1315 (even if this was largely restricted to its colonies). This hardly suggests a nation which was uncomfortable with the concept of slavery. The road to abolition in France was tortuous, and even included its brief reintroduction at one point (by Napoleon).
The interesting point is that the actions of Louis X suggest that there was at least some consideration of the idea that slavery was wrong hundreds of years before the point at which the public mood generally shifted in favour of its abolition.
means tested reparations. brilliant
And that’s my point.
Your argument that “they didn’t know any better” falls flat when folks had been working for abolition since the 14th century.
Your patience in this thread is one to behold @adexkola
Reparations are long over due. Jim Crow laws were outlawed 54 years ago, meaning a large majority of black americans were alive during Jim Crow era, and nothing has been given back to them.
In the UK, taxpayers only just finished paying back the slave owners compensation due to loss of earnings from having to give their slaves freedom.
So you have a situation where direct descendants of slavery in the west indies were brought to the UK during Windrush, and their taxes were used to pay into a system that was paying off the debt used to pay the very people that oppressed them and their ancestors.
Reparations are much needed.
Reparations are long over due. Jim Crow laws were outlawed 54 years ago, meaning a large majority of black americans were alive during Jim Crow era, and nothing has been given back to them.
In the UK, taxpayers only just finished paying back the slave owners compensation due to loss of earnings from having to give their slaves freedom.
So you have a situation where direct descendants of slavery in the west indies were brought to the UK during Windrush, and their taxes were used to pay into a system that was paying off the debt used to pay the very people that oppressed them and their ancestors.
Reparations are much needed.
They should but dont, not equally anyway. Suppose thats another subject.
I have no issues with the idea that governments should invest in communities that are disadvantaged and need support. Indeed, I would say that governments have a responsibility to do precisely that. It's a duty that exists without any need for historical justifications.
I never argued that "they didn't know any better". I argued that slavery was legal, and that the notion of reparations is therefore not applicable.
Perhaps a few people did know better (or, perhaps more correctly, hold a belief that slavery was morally wrong), but most didn't.
Oh, not sure how I missed that. Yeah, he and the other black millionaires can be exempted I guess, if that's your main concern.
I'm not going to validate my personal circumstances. I will say that I disagree with the bolded, and for the sake of not derailing this thread I'll leave it at that. But if you feel any sort of jealousy, you need to let some love and compassion in your heart
You have completely derailed this thread already if you're blaming me of "jealousy".
Also your parents being black immigrants in the 80's is again, completely not relevant to my point. You are talking as if you have more of a say in this than I do.
First, you don't know my race or ethnicity but its quite evident you and your parents did not grow up in the projects or the ghetto.
Like I said, visit a ghetto or a project for a change. Say it to their face they are less deserving due to the different forms of unfair treatment BOTH of their ancestors suffered.
EDIT: I grew up in and around the black community. So if you're not going to take my word for it, visit these places yourself. Yeah just pick and choose who deserves a fair chance and who doesn't.
@adexkola have you ever met a black person before?
Investing in the poorer parts of society and paying back descendants of enslaved African Americans are completely separate issues. The US should be doing both, and has enough money to do both of those things.
I had time
Exactly. If all communities were the same economically, that would not negate the need nor the right of African Americans to get reparations. It's another subject entirely, which is why saying "just invest in the ghettos" misses the bloody point. At best it's an ignorant point.
Oh yeah
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Isn't he an Indian ?
I mean, if the shoe doesn't fit, then don't wear it. I don't understand how else to categorize your claims of other black people feeling "some sort of way" (paraphrasing).
All I've done in this thread is given my own opinion. If you are against the concept then that's your prerogative
Ok Ok okMy study partner in college was Indian if that counts
If you can't give reparations based on something that was legal (like nearly all state-led oppression is), there would never be any reparations.
The government is an entity that still exists. It is more than the people who work for it. Organisations can be held to account as well as people as I'm sure you're well aware.
I’m gonna just leave this here. Some of you do with it what you will...
Has someone quantified this yet?
I’d like to know @Steerpike ’s thoughts on the Reparations Agreement between West Germany and Israel.
The government has a duty to fix neighborhoods affected by urban blight. It has a duty to provide affordable and quality education to it's citizens. It has a duty to ensure that families don't go hungry and homeless. And if black communities are disproportionately impacted by these symptoms, whether reparations goes through or not, the government owes it to these communities to bring them up to par, with the rest of the country.
That is just a basic duty. That is not repayment for slavery, or Jim Crow, or being locked out of the New Deal, or the Fair Deal, or affordable housing built countrywide following WW2. It does not compensate for redlining, or predatory financial practices that specifically targeted black Americans. It does not compensate for black veterans who could not utilize the benefits of the GI bill to lift their families out of poverty. It does not compensate for the destruction of Black Wall Street in Tulsa and other black-owned businesses and enterprises throughout the country.
Saying "just fix the ghettos", or "what about other blacks that came here after all that shit happened yet also live in poverty" misses the whole fecking point, it's ignorant of the facts, and dismissive of the suffering that occurred with the sanction of this country for nearly 400 years. The topic at hand is not about urban development. It's about repayment from those responsible (The United States) towards those who suffered under that misery for hundreds of years and are still living with the severe aftereffects (African Americans who are descendants of slaves). Payback.
That is just a basic duty. That is not repayment for slavery, or Jim Crow, or being locked out of the New Deal, or the Fair Deal, or affordable housing built countrywide following WW2. It does not compensate for redlining, or predatory financial practices that specifically targeted black Americans. It does not compensate for black veterans who could not utilize the benefits of the GI bill to lift their families out of poverty. It does not compensate for the destruction of Black Wall Street in Tulsa and other black-owned businesses and enterprises throughout the country.
Saying "just fix the ghettos", or "what about other blacks that came here after all that shit happened yet also live in poverty" misses the whole fecking point, it's ignorant of the facts, and dismissive of the suffering that occurred with the sanction of this country for nearly 400 years. The topic at hand is not about urban development. It's about repayment from those responsible (The United States) towards those who suffered under that misery for hundreds of years and are still living with the severe aftereffects (African Americans who are descendants of slaves). Payback.