So the Africans have to pay reparations as well? After all they are the ones who captured and sold other Africans to the europeans.
Reparations discussion
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You're wrong. Pouring money into the ghettos would help. Returning stolen value to the descendants of African slaves would provide them with a better chance of closing the gap between them and white folk that was created due to... Wait for it... Slavery and Jim Crow!
feck the resentment from those who are either racist or jealous that others are being paid what was extracted from their ancestors. You think anyone have a feck about those well meaning white folk who argued that ending segregation would cause societal resentment and strife? Those people are worse than the actual racists. At least those are honest and irrationally hate black people.
Took longer than I thought but here we are, as expected.
OK. Return of stolen artifacts is based on a long line of legal jurisprudence and statutes making up a mix of property law, contract laws and other principles of law. You can equate it to reparations all you want, but it's not the same thing.
Net value wise, they lost out.
But if you were knowledgeable of history you would know this. So go read a book and then come back and try again.
Aye. Just ignt.
Sure, after billions of colonialism tax, thousands of artefacts and billions of $ worth stolen natural resources are returned to the continent I think you'll find that Africa will actually be owed more than they will need to pay for reparations.
Yeah, this is worse than stolen artifacts. An entire people were stolen and exploited. And because it's worse, your solution is to do nothing because there is no precedent.
There are some shit heads in this thread but this is a bit much.
So far the pro repearations arguments have been - it's the moral right thing to do and we put man on moon.
There needs to be actual reperation policies to move the discussion forward. Which hopefully this hearing and future ones can bring forward.
You're not being pragmatic. Saying feck those people and calling people who had absolutely zero responsibility for slavery racist because they wouldn't want to pay for it shows a lack of critical thinking through consequences and ignorance. It's not you're happy to pay for something you didn't do because these people suffered or you're racist. My family moved to the US in 2000 and my Mum was raised dirt poor in post-WW2 Swansea. She shouldn't have to pay for sins she didn't commit and has no relation to. If you don't think growing resentment would have negative consequences you're not thinking. Sometimes you have to look past what you believe is right or wrong and have some pragmaticism.
That's not what I've said at all. I've just said you shouldn't be comparing apples to oranges. Stop creating straw men. It doesn't make you look smart.
My take with this... no reparations at all and we could try to give them more education, I work with someone from Ghana (2 people and 1 retired) and I can see the difference, they want their kids to have more education and they worked for that, they don’t have a ton of kids from different women and they have as many kids they can afford, welfare is a shame for them and they help between themselves. Helped to setup a computer for a church and I could see they have a nice community.
Actually I've changed my mind. If repearations means nothing more than Barros losing his home because it's built on what used to be a plantation hundreds of years ago then yes I'm all for repearations.
The more I think about this the more I think, feck it, why not? It can’t do any harm, and can only do a lot of good.
I'm wondering if we shouldn't be looking at this from a more holistic standpoint, given that the slave trade was worldwide and not just in the US. The African slave trade, administered by European countries, sent slaves all over the world, in volumes much greater than that to the US.
The debate could be had that the Brits, Portuguese, Dutch, French and Spanish, played a much larger role in the overall practice of slavery than most Caucasian Americans. In addition to those European countries that engaged in slave trading, the very country of the slaves origin in Africa also had an enormous role in history. Given that descendants of slaves are probably much worse off in countries other than the US, is a reparation program something that the UN should possibly take a look at administering.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and this conversation has centered around the US Congress discussion, but in my opinion it goes much deeper than that. If this is s serious program with legitimate benefits, it should be looked at worldwide and not just country by country.
The debate could be had that the Brits, Portuguese, Dutch, French and Spanish, played a much larger role in the overall practice of slavery than most Caucasian Americans. In addition to those European countries that engaged in slave trading, the very country of the slaves origin in Africa also had an enormous role in history. Given that descendants of slaves are probably much worse off in countries other than the US, is a reparation program something that the UN should possibly take a look at administering.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and this conversation has centered around the US Congress discussion, but in my opinion it goes much deeper than that. If this is s serious program with legitimate benefits, it should be looked at worldwide and not just country by country.
I think the fact African Americans were mistreated by their own government and are still governed by the same government is worth bearing in mind. International wars and the pillaging of other nations isn't entirely comparable. The need for a reckoning and trying to make amends is greater.
So what are your saying? Let's pretend it's too difficult until it isn't? The thread, discussions, hearings, etc are at their beginning.... So how in depth do you want arguements to be?
You do you but for me, repeatedly reading that it's a non starter doesn't cut it.
Wouldn't be particularly helpful given that each country has had its own experience where it curtailed discrimination at varying times and some continued it on a large scale. Therefore the topic of reparations would pretty much decohere into many disparate directions if you attempted to make any progress in addressing the issue in a particular country.
Completely agree. However, I think it's a dangerous proposition to place a value of reparations (or reparations at all) based on the direction a ship was told to sail.
I'm guessing no.
Indeed, its the get out of jail card for certain types of people when this topic is brought up.
Have you read Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"? You should. Because asking me and other to "be pragmatic" is very similar to tactics used by "well meaning" whites in America in the 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s to delay the end of segregation and other restrictions placed on the black population.
I am deliberately refusing to be pragmatic about this issue. It is not one for compromise. The aggrieved should not be asked to "be realistic" in the hopes that the rest of the population will then magically come over. MLK said, Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say, "Wait." I'll piggyback on that and suggest that it's probably easy for you, who from this conversation is still struggling to comprehend the impact of slavery and oppression on the black population, to say "be pragmatic". Support gained on pragmatic compromise is not worth having. That sort of support can take several seats.
Don't twist my words. I've created several categories for people who oppose the very idea of reparations to African Americans who are descendants of slaves.
A. Ignorant of the facts
B. Jealous
C. Racist
I can easily say and prove that your posts (and others, shout out to @barros) show a lack of knowledge about the facts surrounding the history of African Americans, or a lack of basic empathy. I'm not sure what I've posted that displays a lack of critical thinking, feel free to point those out.
If your family moved to the United States, in that movement is an implicit agreement to pay taxes as mandated by law. It is no more unfair to be "forced" to contribute towards a reparations fund, than it is unfair to be "forced" to contribute towards an aircraft carrier.
Africa is a country innit
3. Unless you can do it in creative way like Brad Cantona used to, in which case its zero.
Except the aircraft carrier is at least in theory protecting the interests of everyone paying taxes towards it.
If you want a better analogy it would be 'forced to contribute to reparations' is no different to being 'forced to contribute to the welfare state'.
One absolutely can.
This is correct. Vast majority of slaves ended up in the Caribbean and in Brazil.
Yes, a case can be made for most of those. British, Spanish and Portuguese for sure. The Dutch didn't last long as a colonial power. The French were shitty at it (they were much better at divvying Africa up)
Regarding the bolded, they did, but for the worse, not the better. The Atlantic Slave Trade did not enrich Africa. It devastated it. The internal turmoil created by the demand for slaves devastated stable kingdoms, sapped the strength of it's peoples, and left them more vulnerable to the European Powers that drew random borders across a vast continent in Berlin, and subsequently conquered every inch of Africa (except Ethiopia and Liberia). Those borders drawn and exploited are one of the reasons Africa is in the state it is today.
But yeah it would be nice if the UN could utilize the US as an example, and take the lead in the reparations and rehabilitation effort.
Well I don't think we should wait until the UN takes this up, before reparations is tackled. The US can serve as an living example. It won't be the first time the US has gone ahead of the UN.
I don't really have knowledge on the subject, but I'm thinking that the US should do whatever it can to better the lives they have actively harmed through past actions and inactions on this topic.
I think there should be reparation, but I think that on top of that the US needs to reduce its military budget (and tax the rich and their companies more) and improve living conditions, especially access to good education along with free health care for all.
Reading and hearing people talk about it as communism, or even just a negative, makes me lose faith in a whole lot of humans.
I think there should be reparation, but I think that on top of that the US needs to reduce its military budget (and tax the rich and their companies more) and improve living conditions, especially access to good education along with free health care for all.
Reading and hearing people talk about it as communism, or even just a negative, makes me lose faith in a whole lot of humans.
"in theory". We need 9 to protect my interests. Please.
I agree with that analogy. I gladly contribute to the welfare state (or it's bastardization that we have in the US). I would support an expansion of the welfare state. For those who oppose it, do they see contributions to Medicare or food stamps as unfair? @barros definitely does, but that goes without saying.
Christ! Inflation is a bitch....
Any immigrant/family that immigrated after abolition should have nothing to do with any payments, should they be required. The DAR crowd, etc can fund this.
I'm asking a serious question here, don't chimp out on me. Can anyone here really say, with clear conscience, that the majority of Africans imported in the US and their ancestors didn't have a better life than those that stayed in Africa? Keep in mind that the absolute vast majority of the slaves were just brought out from other Africans.
So I don't understand this shit about reparations. Everyone got enslaved at one point or another. Europeans enslaved each other, Asians did the same, Africans did, as well. That's how life was back then. Why should anyone pay to anyone these days when both sides had absolutely nothing to do with it? Even if we exclude the fact, that as I said, most Africans got a better life being transported to America than staying in Africa.
Furthermore, it is an extremely stupid idea because the left wants to unite the people. How are you going to do that with your current policy? It only breeds more and more resentment and that resentment will eventually boil over.
So I don't understand this shit about reparations. Everyone got enslaved at one point or another. Europeans enslaved each other, Asians did the same, Africans did, as well. That's how life was back then. Why should anyone pay to anyone these days when both sides had absolutely nothing to do with it? Even if we exclude the fact, that as I said, most Africans got a better life being transported to America than staying in Africa.
Furthermore, it is an extremely stupid idea because the left wants to unite the people. How are you going to do that with your current policy? It only breeds more and more resentment and that resentment will eventually boil over.
Saying it's a non starter of course doesn't cut but either does saying repearations is the moral right thing to do. Donald Trump is president and there are concentration like camps on the US border, morals mean feck alll for most of the public.
To put forward reperaations will which likely mean the potential transfer of trillions of dollars then there then has to something of plan or at the least expectation that people will expect a plan(Which as I said in my last post hopefully these hearings will progress to).
At the moment this thread is people arguing over a political program which has no program.
That guy from that other racism related thread has arrived... Here we go.
Struggling to see how you could have started this shipwreck of a post any worse
So, let me understand this... you're saying slavery and Jim Crow and lynchings and all that... was better for African Americans than being left back in Africa? Because, Africa, ew, am I right?
Brought out as in birthed? And where, pray tell, did the others come from?
I can see why.
Did Asians "Jim Crow" each other too?
Ah, so you're convinced of this then.
Boil over into what? More lynchings?
Are we as a people trying to atone for slavery as a whole, or just American slavery?
I can say yikes dude what the feck is wrong with you with a clear conscience
holy shit