Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Shamwow]

No but seriously, is that it?

Sometimes it's good to let off a bit of steam.

The difference is that I accept that trying to make Brexit work and then offering a 2nd referendum is a valid position at this stage considering how divided the country is on it. Corbyn needs to see what the deal is before he can state whether he'll back it or not - even if he already knows what he'll do privately. If he came out and backed remain now the brexiters will go even more apeshit. He's trying to be the only calm and compromising voice in this whole debate, which is difficult when it's full of screaming idiots.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Corbyn appeared more than anyone else outside of Cameron and Osborne so once again you are full of shit.

Yeah right, never saw Farage or Johnson - absolutely bull.

 

[nickm]

Corbyn actually cares what happens to people. The others don't.

Well yeah, unless you are jewish.

 

[Mockney]

Yes I saw him a couple of time son TV , same as he is in parliament, awful - so passionate not - pre Brexit campaigning was full of many other other people but Corbyn did not appear very often in comparison.

What, like current Remain champion - and person you’ll likely vote for - Jo Swinson??

What about my other points - he had the power to stop a no-deal Brexit but didn't - so he played his part and wasn't powerless.
If the leader of the opposition is so meek and powerless what is the point of him being there?

“Yes the thing I said before was a compete lie, but I thought I’d get away with it... anywhoo, how about the other thing I said?”

But since you mentioned it, yeah, it is super weird that the Leader of the Opposition decided to respect the referendum result in the immediate aftermath of the largest act of democratic rebellion this century. It’s not like it would’ve been political suicide and an obvious point of attack for the Government, or anything.

It’s almost as if you live in a completely contextless social and political vacuum?

“Why won’t everyone compromise 100% with me!?” Says man utterly unprepared to compromise.

 

[Shamwow]

Yeah right, never saw Farage or Johnson - absolutely bull.

Actually you're right, he appeared more than anyone else who supported remain but there were leavers ahead of him. Including those 2 clowns. That says a lot about remain in general though as he still campaigned for remain more than almost anyone else.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Actually you're right, he appeared more than anyone else who supported remain but there were leavers ahead of him. Including those 2 clowns.

On Remainers they were very thin on the ground , yes, it was a terrible campaign - I'm not saying it's just Corbyn but the Tory Remainers were just as much to blame for poor campaigning

 

[Shamwow]

On Remainers they were very thin on the ground , yes, it was a terrible campaign - I'm not saying it's just Corbyn but the Tory Remainers were just as much to blame for poor campaigning

The Tory remainers arguments seemed to actually help the leave side. People complained about Corbyn's 7/10 on Europe line but that was the most persuasive thing I heard the whole campaign from a politician.

 

[balaks]

Sometimes it's good to let off a bit of steam.

The difference is that I accept that trying to make Brexit work and then offering a 2nd referendum is a valid position at this stage considering how divided the country is on it. Corbyn needs to see what the deal is before he can state whether he'll back it or not - even if he already knows what he'll do privately. If he came out and backed remain now the brexiters will go even more apeshit. He's trying to be the only calm and compromising voice in this whole debate, which is difficult when it's full of screaming idiots.

See now I can start to take you seriously because you finally respond with a position rather than some sort of childish gibberish. The problem I have with this is that he, like the Tories, are still peddling the - in my view - false impression that the brexit deal can be re-negotiated at this point so I find it difficult to believe anything about their position - having said that IF Corbyn either supported the withdrawl agreement or even if he supported an extension of Art 50 then I would be much happier. He knows what the deal is - we all do - it's the withdrawl agreement that is already in place - dancing around this has been a major problem for both the Tories and Labour. Offering a 2nd referendum is fine but what would their position be in that case - are they a pro-brexit (with a deal they can live with) party or an anti-brexit party? They seem to have flitted between both positions and I honestly have no idea what they are.

Compromise and calmness are all well and good but they are being untruthful about the current situation as much as the Tories are - the fact is that the only thing that might change a little in the deal is the nature of the backstop - other than that, this is the deal.

 

[esmufc07]

For the many not the Jew.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

What, like current Remain champion - and person you’ll likely vote for - Jo Swinson??





“Yes the thing I said before was a compete lie, but I thought I’d get away with it... anywhoo, how about the other thing I said?”

But since you mentioned it, yeah, it is super weird that the Leader of the Opposition decided to respect the referendum result in the immediate aftermath of the largest act of democratic rebellion this century. It’s not like it would’ve been political suicide and an obvious point of attack for the Government, or anything.

It’s almost as if you live in a completely contextless social and political vacuum?

“Why won’t everyone compromise 100% with me!?” Says man utterly unprepared to compromise.

I'd never heard of Jo Swinson until a few weeks ago so no - fortunately I don't have to vote for anyone but there isn't anybody I would vote for - just as an outside observer .

My points were that he should have done much more before the referendum and since the referendum should have held the government more responsible for their actions. He could have prevented a no-deal by voting for the WA and so will be held, whether he likes it or not, partly responsible for the UK crashing out if it does so.

 

[Shamwow]

See now I can start to take you seriously because you finally respond with a position rather than some sort of childish gibberish. The problem I have with this is that he, like the Tories, are still peddling the - in my view - false impression that the brexit deal can be re-negotiated at this point so I find it difficult to believe anything about their position - having said that IF Corbyn either supported the withdrawl agreement or even if he supported an extension of Art 50 then I would be much happier. He knows what the deal is - we all do - it's the withdrawl agreement that is already in place - dancing around this has been a major problem for both the Tories and Labour. Offering a 2nd referendum is fine but what would their position be in that case - are they a pro-brexit (with a deal they can live with) party or an anti-brexit party? They seem to have flitted between both positions and I honestly have no idea what they are.

Compromise and calmness are all well and good but they are being untruthful about the current situation as much as the Tories are.

We don't really know what is truthful about the situation at this stage. Someone made the good point that if Corbyn negotiated with the EU the softest of brexits that they would probably go for that (they'd be silly not to at least).

I don't really see why Labour need to be pro or anti brexit at this stage. The vote happened. Trying to campaign on pure remain is good/leave is good doesn't seem to be working at this stage as there are entrenched supporters on both sides. Why is "we're going to try and make it work, then we'll let the country decide on whether to go with our attempt at making it work or remain" a bad position to take. It throws brexiters a bone. It gives remainers what they have been campaigning for (the 2nd ref) in a way that some brexiters might actually be prepared to vote for in a GE (rather than going straight revoke, which no brexiter would vote for). What's actually wrong with that?

 

[CassiusClaymore]

For the many not the Jew.

 

[sullydnl]

What, like current Remain champion - and person you’ll likely vote for - Jo Swinson??





“Yes the thing I said before was a compete lie, but I thought I’d get away with it... anywhoo, how about the other thing I said?”

But since you mentioned it, yeah, it is super weird that the Leader of the Opposition decided to respect the referendum result in the immediate aftermath of the largest act of democratic rebellion this century. It’s not like it would’ve been political suicide and an obvious point of attack for the Government, or anything.

It’s almost as if you live in a completely contextless social and political vacuum?

“Why won’t everyone compromise 100% with me!?” Says man utterly unprepared to compromise.

Regarding those stats on Corbyn's contribution to the referendum, are there any stats on how he compares to other prominent campaigners at the time?

I'm not entirely sure it's fair to directly compare Swinson (who only became LibDem leader this year and who wasn't an MP at the time of the referendum) with Corbyn (who was Labour leader at the time of the referendum) given one would probably expect more prominent politicians to take more prominent roles in a referendum campaign?

 

[nickm]

Based on what(Something other than your personal feelings.) ? And how would past leader have done any better ?

this poll from the other day which says 20% think Corbyn would make the best PM? To be fair, that is a 3% point increase on March 2017.

 

[Kentonio]

He's taking the position of "respect the original result, try to make it work, offer a 2nd vote on the final outcome". It's really not hard to understand.

For nearly 3 years after the referendum Labour supporters had absolutely no fecking idea whether Labour were pro-Leave or pro-Remain. Corbyn was very obviously trying to keep both camps happy by finding some middle route but instead of just picking a direction and being open about it, he refused over and over again to give a clear policy position. It appeared as if he had to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting a 2nd referendum policy, and even now we don't actually know whether he wants to make the party position pro-Remain or pro-leave with a deal.

This isn't nuanced and complex, its ambiguous and confusing, which is why Labours poll numbers are on their arse despite facing the most embarrasing couple of Tory governments in history.

 

[Shamwow]

Regarding those stats on Corbyn's contribution to the referendum, are there any stats on how they compare to those of other campaigners at the time?

I'm not entirely sure it's fair to directly compare Swinson (who only became LibDem leader this year and who wasn't an MP at the time of the referendum) with Corbyn (who was Labour leader at the time of the referendum) given one would probably expect more prominent politicians to take more prominent roles in a referendum campaign?

There's a study on media appearances https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-re...16-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/:
Position Name | Number of appearances | Percentage of items in which they appeared
1 David Cameron (Conservative IN) 499 24.9%
2 Boris Johnson (Conservative OUT) 379 18.9%
3 George Osborne (Conservative IN) 230 11.5%
4 Nigel Farage (UKIP OUT) 182 9.1%
5 Michael Gove (Conservative OUT) 161 8.0%
6 Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative OUT) 124 6.2%
7 Jeremy Corbyn (Labour IN) 123 6.1%
8 Priti Patel (Conservative OUT) 65 3.2%
9 Gordon Brown (Labour IN) 52 2.6%
10 John Major (Conservative IN) 47 2.3%
11 Jacob Rees-Mogg (Conservative OUT) 35 1.7%
12= Chris Grayling (Conservative OUT) 33 1.6%
12= Gisela Stuart (Labour OUT) 33 1.6%
14= Theresa May (Conservative IN) 29 1.4%
14= Donald Tusk (President European Council IN) 29 1.4%
16 Nicola Sturgeon (SNP IN) 28 1.4%
17= Bernard Jenkin (Conservative OUT) 24 1.2%
17= Sadiq Khan (Labour IN) 24 1.2%
19 Liam Fox (Conservative OUT) 23 1.1%
20 Jean-Claude Juncker (President of the EC IN) 21 1.0%
21 Alistair Darling (Labour IN) 20 1.0%
22 Alan Johnson (Labour IN) 19 .9%
23= Amber Rudd (Conservative IN) 18 .9%
23= Ed Balls (Labour IN) 18 .9%
25= Norman Lamont (Conservative OUT) 17 .8%
25= ******* Harman (Labour IN) 17 .8%
26= Angela Merkel (Chancellor of Germany IN) 16 .8%
26= Sarah Wollaston (Conservative OUT then IN) 16 .8%
26= John McDonnell (Labour IN) 16 .8%
30 Angela Eagle (Labour IN) 15 .7%

 

[Red Dreams]

Well yeah, unless you are jewish.

the famous if you are against the Israeli state you are against Jews.

 

[Shamwow]

For nearly 3 years after the referendum Labour supporters had absolutely no fecking idea whether Labour were pro-Leave or pro-Remain. Corbyn was very obviously trying to keep both camps happy by finding some middle route but instead of just picking a direction and being open about it, he refused over and over again to give a clear policy position. It appeared as if he had to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting a 2nd referendum policy, and even now we don't actually know whether he wants to make the party position pro-Remain or pro-leave with a deal.

This isn't nuanced and complex, its ambiguous and confusing, which is why Labours poll numbers are on their arse despite facing the most embarrasing couple of Tory governments in history.

He's still trying to find a middle ground and I think it's the only effective strategy when the country is getting so divided. I don't see any other route to getting enough support for a 2nd ref in the general election.

 

[Sweet Square]

Based on the utter shambles that I have observed since he has had the position - its incredibly frustrating as he does have many policy ideas that I could definitely get behind but all of that is made irrelevant by how badly he has handled brexit - you have around a 50/50 split in the UK right now on Brexit - what he should have done, in my view, is picked a position and stuck to it - I'd have liked them to fight against Brexit completely but perhaps that was impossible so then they should have campaigned for a very soft brexit - they did not do this either. So essentially you have Labour being pretty similar to the Tories on Brexit - indeed part of their current 'position' is to re-negotiate brexit which is exactly the same bloody policy as the Tories - and laughable as it's a complete fantasy.

Labour couldn't after the referendum simply pick a position and stuck to it because of the mix of leave and remain voters it had. Plus coming straight out for another referendum after the last one had just finished would have been a disaster for the 2017 election. So they instead campaigned for a soft brexit, wither that was possible or not is another argument but they did have a soft brexit as their plan(So I'm not sure what you've missed here).

What a huge missed opportunity this has been - you have almost half the country who voted remain sitting there with nobody other than the Lib Dems actually stating they will fight brexit. The Tories have been a total disaster throughout this process and ripe for the taking - this was the chance for Labour to put the boot in and possibly destroy the Tories for a generation but no, nothing.

I absolutely hate the Tories and all they stand for but I also now hate Corbyn for fecking up this once in a generation chance to take them out and also for not being pro-active enough to try and stop us getting into this bloody awful situation with brexit.

''Ripe for the taking'' but you've said ''around a 50/50 split in the UK right now on Brexit'' so clearly the tories have some support, no ? Your right that the Tory Party is there for the taking but if it's to die it won't be from a one liner zinger from Corbyn or anyone else from the Labour Party but the very social conditions the Tory Party have put in place(The outcome of Thatcherism, the power of change in capitalism, dying voter base etc etc). All the Labour Party can do is offering a alternative vision of the UK and the world(Which has only happened since the left and Corbyn took over the labour leadership).

Corbyn has been unable to overcome his own view on Europe for the greater good - that is why I hold him personally responsible for screwing this up.

No other Labour leader in recent times has the background and history he has and this is what has fecked the entire thing up. This is why any of them would have played this in a very different way -- they have been up against the worst Tory leadership in my lifetime and have completely let them get away with it because Corbyn also dislikes Europe.

Corbyn dislike Europe well the EU because of shite like this -



Or all the dead brown kids in the sea, or the misery the EU forced onto Greece and the countless austerity that happened all around Europe. Corbyn is a internationlist socialist and yet he stilled campaigned for Reman, voted Remain and is now offering a second referendum!

As for why other former leaders would done been better, the answer you gave was well not a answer and based on nothing more than your feelings.

 

[NinjaFletch]

There's a study on media appearances https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-re...16-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/:
Position Name | Number of appearances | Percentage of items in which they appeared
1 David Cameron (Conservative IN) 499 24.9%
2 Boris Johnson (Conservative OUT) 379 18.9%
3 George Osborne (Conservative IN) 230 11.5%
4 Nigel Farage (UKIP OUT) 182 9.1%
5 Michael Gove (Conservative OUT) 161 8.0%
6 Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative OUT) 124 6.2%
7 Jeremy Corbyn (Labour IN) 123 6.1%
8 Priti Patel (Conservative OUT) 65 3.2%
9 Gordon Brown (Labour IN) 52 2.6%
10 John Major (Conservative IN) 47 2.3%
11 Jacob Rees-Mogg (Conservative OUT) 35 1.7%
12= Chris Grayling (Conservative OUT) 33 1.6%
12= Gisela Stuart (Labour OUT) 33 1.6%
14= Theresa May (Conservative IN) 29 1.4%
14= Donald Tusk (President European Council IN) 29 1.4%
16 Nicola Sturgeon (SNP IN) 28 1.4%
17= Bernard Jenkin (Conservative OUT) 24 1.2%
17= Sadiq Khan (Labour IN) 24 1.2%
19 Liam Fox (Conservative OUT) 23 1.1%
20 Jean-Claude Juncker (President of the EC IN) 21 1.0%
21 Alistair Darling (Labour IN) 20 1.0%
22 Alan Johnson (Labour IN) 19 .9%
23= Amber Rudd (Conservative IN) 18 .9%
23= Ed Balls (Labour IN) 18 .9%
25= Norman Lamont (Conservative OUT) 17 .8%
25= ******* Harman (Labour IN) 17 .8%
26= Angela Merkel (Chancellor of Germany IN) 16 .8%
26= Sarah Wollaston (Conservative OUT then IN) 16 .8%
26= John McDonnell (Labour IN) 16 .8%
30 Angela Eagle (Labour IN) 15 .7%

I think this comparison is also flawed tbf because it's pretty obvious that a Remain campaign which thinks that Cameron and Osborne are assets are going to think that Corbyn is a liability (and probably with some justification given his infamous 7/10 appearance on the Last Leg).

I've long maintained that Labour made a strategic error by affiliating themselves with the official campaign.

 

[Shamwow]

I think this comparison is also flawed tbf because it's pretty obvious that a Remain campaign which thinks that Cameron and Osborne are assets are going to think that Corbyn is a liability (and probably with some justification given his infamous 7/10 appearance on the Last Leg).

I've long maintained that Labour made a strategic error by affiliating themselves with the official campaign.

Oh yeah almost certainly and it's also probably skewed by the media's obsession with the Conservatives' internal drama.

Although I'd argue that in hindsight it was Cameron and Osbourne who were the liabilities.

 

[nickm]

the famous if you are against the Israeli state you are against Jews.

That ship's sailed mate. Everyone knows it's about more than that.

 

[sullydnl]

There's a study on media appearances https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-re...16-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/:
Position Name | Number of appearances | Percentage of items in which they appeared
1 David Cameron (Conservative IN) 499 24.9%
2 Boris Johnson (Conservative OUT) 379 18.9%
3 George Osborne (Conservative IN) 230 11.5%
4 Nigel Farage (UKIP OUT) 182 9.1%
5 Michael Gove (Conservative OUT) 161 8.0%
6 Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative OUT) 124 6.2%
7 Jeremy Corbyn (Labour IN) 123 6.1%
8 Priti Patel (Conservative OUT) 65 3.2%
9 Gordon Brown (Labour IN) 52 2.6%
10 John Major (Conservative IN) 47 2.3%
11 Jacob Rees-Mogg (Conservative OUT) 35 1.7%
12= Chris Grayling (Conservative OUT) 33 1.6%
12= Gisela Stuart (Labour OUT) 33 1.6%
14= Theresa May (Conservative IN) 29 1.4%
14= Donald Tusk (President European Council IN) 29 1.4%
16 Nicola Sturgeon (SNP IN) 28 1.4%
17= Bernard Jenkin (Conservative OUT) 24 1.2%
17= Sadiq Khan (Labour IN) 24 1.2%
19 Liam Fox (Conservative OUT) 23 1.1%
20 Jean-Claude Juncker (President of the EC IN) 21 1.0%
21 Alistair Darling (Labour IN) 20 1.0%
22 Alan Johnson (Labour IN) 19 .9%
23= Amber Rudd (Conservative IN) 18 .9%
23= Ed Balls (Labour IN) 18 .9%
25= Norman Lamont (Conservative OUT) 17 .8%
25= ******* Harman (Labour IN) 17 .8%
26= Angela Merkel (Chancellor of Germany IN) 16 .8%
26= Sarah Wollaston (Conservative OUT then IN) 16 .8%
26= John McDonnell (Labour IN) 16 .8%
30 Angela Eagle (Labour IN) 15 .7%

Thanks!

 

[Sweet Square]

Oh yeah almost certainly and it's also probably skewed by the media's obsession with the Conservatives' internal drama.

Although I'd argue that in hindsight it was Cameron and Osbourne who were the liabilities.

It was fecked from the start as soon as the tories won in 2015 and put forward the referendum. No matter how good the Remain campaign could have been it was never going to beat Leave.

If people wanted to Remain in the EU they should have voted for Ed.

 

[Abizzz]

What about my other points - he had the power to stop a no-deal Brexit but didn't - so he played his part and wasn't powerless.
If the leader of the opposition is so meek and powerless what is the point of him being there?

He could have prevented a no-deal by voting for the WA and so will be held, whether he likes it or not, partly responsible for the UK crashing out if it does so.

Realistically this would have been his only option to stop no deal (up to this point).


We're all in agreement that the WA is bad and only better than the catastrophe that is a "no deal" and no where near as good as remaining. Better deals are also easily conceivable if May's old red lines were binned. How is the leader of the opposition at fault for anything when all he does is vote against a objectively terrible piece of government legislation? I don't get it. For the record I don't consider myself a Corbyn fan.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Oh yeah almost certainly and it's also probably skewed by the media's obsession with the Conservatives' internal drama.

Although I'd argue that in hindsight it was Cameron and Osbourne who were the liabilities.

Oh, yeah, they were hugely unpopular figures who made it incredibly easy for Leave to portray Remain as an establishment position. Thinking they were assets in the first place was a mistake.

But Corbyn's appearances were hardly a masterpiece in campaigning and messaging and if their campaign team initially thought he wasn't an asset he did little to prove otherwise.

 

[Kentonio]

Labour couldn't after the referendum simply pick a position and stuck to it because of the mix of leave and remain voters it had. Plus coming straight out for another referendum after the last one had just finished would have been a disaster for the 2017 election. So they instead campaigned for a soft brexit, wither that was possible or not is another argument but they did have a soft brexit as their plan(So I'm not sure what you've missed here).

A plan which ostracized large numbers of their own supporters, led to the reinvigoration of the Lib Dems and has left them at a pathetic 25% in the polls. Go Jeremy..

 

[Sweet Square]

A plan which ostracized large numbers of their own supporters, led to the reinvigoration of the Lib Dems and has left them at a pathetic 25% in the polls. Go Jeremy..

And your alternative is what exactly ? Well apart from voting for a liberal party that welcomes people who want to test immigrates for H.I.V.

Freedom movement for all but now with testing ?


Also we have to wait until the next election is over to see if Labour strategy has worked.

 

[Shamwow]

Oh, yeah, they were hugely unpopular figures who made it incredibly easy for Leave to portray Remain as an establishment position. Thinking they were assets in the first place was a mistake.

But Corbyn's appearances were hardly a masterpiece in campaigning and messaging and if their campaign team initially thought he wasn't an asset he did little to prove otherwise.

I'd say that's fairly subjective. I've seen plenty of people hating on 7/10 but also plenty saying they thought it was a good argument.

Corbyn's strong point probably isn't campaigning for the status quo though to be fair.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I'd say that's fairly objective. I've seen plenty of people hating on 7/10 but also plenty saying they thought it was a good argument.

Corbyn's strong point probably isn't campaigning for the status quo though to be fair.

I think it summed up how a lot of people felt, which is fine, but it was a damaging contribution in a referendum campaign which had already become one of absolutes.

And no, it isn't, but that's one of the reasons why I think it was a mistake for Labour to think that an outright alliance with the Tories was a good idea. There are enough positives about the EU to appeal to Labour's traditional base but by the time those were highlighted it had already been tainted by the Tory support of it.

 

[BobbyManc]

A plan which ostracized large numbers of their own supporters, led to the reinvigoration of the Lib Dems and has left them at a pathetic 25% in the polls. Go Jeremy..

Suggest a Labour policy on Brexit that would not have done this. They have lots of Remain and Leave voters, so by very definition any policy is going to ostracise a substantial amount of people. What they've tried to do is adopt the path of least resistance and adopt a Leave policy that was as "soft" as possible and could have harboured support from Remainers like myself who begrudgingly accepted the result of the referendum. It worked well enough for them in the 2017 election. Smaller parties like the Lib Dems and Farage's Gammonfest were/are always going to benefit from Brexit because they can afford to adopt more unequivocal positions than anyone else, and be more vocal in what they want. Obvious example being the Lib Dems making the meaningless claim that they'd revoke Article 50 if they became the largest party; they know full well that will not happen so they thus will never have to push for that, but it boosts their Remainer credentials. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Labour's Brexit policy has been anything close to perfect and the communication of it in particular has been sloppy, but a lot of the criticism it gets is based on emotion rather than fact. If they had come down in favour of a second referendum and Remain from the start then there is no reason to believe their position in the polls would be any better or that they'd have more seats currently in the HoC.

 

[Kentonio]

Suggest a Labour policy on Brexit that would not have done this. They have lots of Remain and Leave voters, so by very definition any policy is going to ostracise a substantial amount of people. What they've tried to do is adopt the path of least resistance and adopt a Leave policy that was as "soft" as possible and could have harboured support from Remainers like myself who begrudgingly accepted the result of the referendum. It worked well enough for them in the 2017 election. Smaller parties like the Lib Dems and Farage's Gammonfest were/are always going to benefit from Brexit because they can afford to adopt more unequivocal positions than anyone else, and be more vocal in what they want. Obvious example being the Lib Dems making the meaningless claim that they'd revoke Article 50 if they became the largest party; they know full well that will not happen so they thus will never have to push for that, but it boosts their Remainer credentials. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Labour's Brexit policy has been anything close to perfect and the communication of it in particular has been sloppy, but a lot of the criticism it gets is based on emotion rather than fact. If they had come down in favour of a second referendum and Remain from the start then there is no reason to believe their position in the polls would be any better or that they'd have more seats currently in the HoC.

They had to choose between pissing off leavers or remainers and despite being a 60%+ pro-Remain party they chose to piss off the remainers. While simultaneously staying so floppy of the position that the serious leavers went Brexit party or Tory anyway.

I could of course be wrong but I’m damned if I see how that position caused their better than expected (but still pretty shit) 2017 result. Theresa May ran one of the worst campaigns in political history, and still won. Why are we suddenly setting expectations for Labour so low?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Realistically this would have been his only option to stop no deal (up to this point).


We're all in agreement that the WA is bad and only better than the catastrophe that is a "no deal" and no where near as good as remaining. Better deals are also easily conceivable if May's old red lines were binned. How is the leader of the opposition at fault for anything when all he does is vote against a objectively terrible piece of government legislation? I don't get it. For the record I don't consider myself a Corbyn fan.

Any form of Brexit is bad for the UK.
The current WA is the only way of leaving the EU with an agreement unless the UK stay in the CU/SM. It may not be great but it's the best you're going to get without a Brexit in name only which is pointless and not what Corbyn wants.
Corbyn has voted against the WA. Furthermore he doesn't want to stay in the SM and he doesn't want to stay in the CU.

He wants to be in the SM without the 4 freedoms and to be in a CU where he can do his own deals - if the Tories had said this they would have been laughed at by Labour supporters but because Corbyn said it they think it is a viable course of action. What is wrong with everybody?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Any form of Brexit is bad for the UK.
The current WA is the only way of leaving the EU with an agreement unless the UK stay in the CU/SM. It may not be great but it's the best you're going to get without a Brexit in name only which is pointless and not what Corbyn wants.
Corbyn has voted against the WA. Furthermore he doesn't want to stay in the SM and he doesn't want to stay in the CU.

He wants to be in the SM without the 4 freedoms and to be in a CU where he can do his own deals - if the Tories had said this they would have been laughed at by Labour supporters but because Corbyn said it they think it is a viable course of action. What is wrong with everybody?

For his acolytes, Corbyn isn't a politician, he's an unimpeachable way of mind.

 

[fishfingers15]

But it is a tough issue with the country split right down the middle and the leave faction already having won the referendum. It's like saying Clinton won the popular vote and Trump is bad, so we should do the honorable thing and storm the White house. I'm not saying go head first and fall into the well of no deal but surely people can see it's a tough situation? 3 years of haggling with no results to show is proof enough that it's just not Corbyn not putting his back into it

 

[BobbyManc]

They had to choose between pissing off leavers or remainers and despite being a 60%+ pro-Remain party they chose to piss off the remainers. While simultaneously staying so floppy of the position that the serious leavers went Brexit party or Tory anyway.

I could of course be wrong but I’m damned if I see how that position caused their better than expected (but still pretty shit) 2017 result. Theresa May ran one of the worst campaigns in political history, and still won. Why are we suddenly setting expectations for Labour so low?

They haven't pissed off Remainers. Recent analysis of their 2017 vote showed that their strongest support came from people who identified as "Strongly Remain". That was on an unambiguous Leave platform. It's also not true that Leave Labour voters will turn to the Conservatives, but some will inevitably go to the Brexit party and Labour need a policy that can stymie that outflow. Likewise, they need to minimise the loss of voters to the Lib Dems. Any analysis of Labour's base of support should tell you why their Brexit policy cannot afford to adopt an extreme position because a significant loss of support from either the Leave/Remain side and they are screwed electorally.

The 2017 result was a triumph for Labour when you look at how they had been polling and how they had fared under Miliband. As for lower expectations, you need to remember gone are the days of Blair having the press in his back-pocket. Labour are not going to have that luxury now that they have shifted leftwards, and it's a hell of a lot tougher to win votes when the mainstream media is incredibly hostile towards the party's leader and his ideas.

 

[NinjaFletch]

They haven't pissed off Remainers. Recent analysis of their 2017 vote showed that their strongest support came from people who identified as "Strongly Remain". That was on an unambiguous Leave platform. It's also not true that Leave Labour voters will turn to the Conservatives, but some will inevitably go to the Brexit party and Labour need a policy that can stymie that outflow. Likewise, they need to minimise the loss of voters to the Lib Dems. Any analysis of Labour's base of support should tell you why their Brexit policy cannot afford to adopt an extreme position because a significant loss of support from either the Leave/Remain side and they are screwed electorally.

The 2017 result was a triumph for Labour when you look at how they had been polling and how they had fared under Miliband. As for lower expectations, you need to remember gone are the days of Blair having the press in his back-pocket. Labour are not going to have that luxury now that they have shifted leftwards, and it's a hell of a lot tougher to win votes when the mainstream media is incredibly hostile towards the party's leader and his ideas.

You realise 2017 was two years ago, right?

 

[BobbyManc]

You realise 2017 was two years ago, right?

In 2017 Labour stood on a platform that was unambiguously to leave the EU/honour the referendum result, and yet their largest base of supporters remained people who strongly identified with Remain and their share of the vote increased. Thus, the idea that their Brexit policy has alienated its core base of Remain voters does not appear wholly valid to me. Their policy is now no longer unambiguously to leave the EU and includes a second referendum with leading figures openly advocating for Remain i.e. Thornberry, McDonnell, Starmer, Watson. We'll find out the truth at the next election.

 

[NinjaFletch]

In 2017 Labour stood on a platform that was unambiguously to leave the EU/honour the referendum result, and yet their largest base of supporters remained people who strongly identified with Remain and their share of the vote increased. Thus, the idea that their Brexit policy has alienated its core base of Remain voters does not appear wholly valid to me. Their policy is now no longer unambiguously to leave the EU and includes a second referendum with leading figures openly advocating for Remain i.e. Thornberry, McDonnell, Starmer, Watson. We'll find out the truth at the next election.

Yes.

'Are you aware that was two years ago?' was the question.

 

[Offsideagain]

Labour Momentum are a reactive bunch of leftie ideologists led by Jon Lansman. None of them have had a real job and spend their time looking for causes to campaign for as long as it’s against the Tories. If May had come back with the best deal in the world the hatred inside Labour/Momentum and others would have blocked it. They have switched sides so many times you just don’t know wtf they stand for other than a communist state. Corbyn will lose the next election by himself. All the Tories have to do is put up a ‘ Do you want Diane Abbot as Home Secretary?’ and they will walk it. There are no parties that seem to want to get this country performing as it should. Tories will spend a bit of dosh on social projects whilst bunging big tax breaks to their mates. Labour would bankrupt us, again. Lib Dem’s are clueless. It’s very worrying.