US Politics

[shamans]

I think with the mining boom ending as Chinese demand declines its inevitable that there would be setbacks, and you have to jump through hoops to get access to welfare nowadays (AUD 700 a fortnight for a non-working couple is a joke), but on the whole a person without higher education here can still easily go into a trade and make 25+ dollars an hour as a casual, you won’t go bankrupt due to a medical emergency and even in the costliest place like Melbourne and Sydney you can live well with a sub 40 hours work week, that in my book is still better than anything the US has to offer for someone without a privileged background.


The American Dream is basically you can be whatever you want to be through hard work and determination. Yours is the only country in OECD with declining life expectancy, the prison population is higher than China with 4 times your population, millennials will hold only 7% of the national wealth when they reach 40. If you think ‘the American Dream’ is alive because Mark Zuckerberg can be a billionaire then I raise you China. Ali Baba owner Jack Ma was a school teacher and now worth an estimated us$ 40 billions. I don’t see anyone talking about the Chinese Dream.

Mark Zuckerberg is just one guy. You can find one such guy anywhere in the world.

Again everything you said (sensationalist headlines for the most part btw) is not related to the american dream. Not everyone can become anything they want with hard work but it still is the land of opportunity compared to a lot of other countries.

My parents are model examples of pursuing the American dream so you cant call it a myth

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Mark Zuckerberg is just one guy. You can find one such guy anywhere in the world.

Again everything you said (sensationalist headlines for the most part btw) is not related to the american dream. Not everyone can become anything they want with hard work but it still is the land of opportunity compared to a lot of other countries.

My parents are model examples of pursuing the American dream so you cant call it a myth

So your argument is
a) land of opportunity compared to a lot of other countries - well yes, no shit Sherlock, I’m sure a Sudanese kid would be over the moon to go to America, but it’s hardly then unique isn’t it? The same type of opportunity is afforded in well developed countries in the OECD just for instance, so where is this legendary mythical version of rags to riches story that America and only America can give you(Bald Eagle soaring by, anthems playing etc)? Meanwhile, in every meaning categories be it from education, healthcare, household income, life expectancy, public safety so on and so forth you are either stagnating or going backwards?

b) my parents made it - good for them, and for every instance like your parents there are tens and hundreds of household with the same desires who couldn’t make it because there is a whole socioeconomic net weighing down on them that only a few were ever lucky enough to swim out of. It’s like rolling a dice, keep at it long enough and you get the desired outcome, pure happenstance, not proof of a grand theory about the inclusiveness and abundance of opportunity as advertised.

 

[Abizzz]

Anyway theres a reason a disproportionate number of entrepreneurs have their business in the u.s and not Europe. From technology to medicine all the ground breaking stuff happens here.

That's not even remotely true. If it were the US wouldn't be "trade waring" around like a bunch of annoyed teenage girls at the moment.

 

[Eboue]

Take @Eboue for instance. He hates billionaires but uses airbnb.

wow such own

 

[Florida Man]

So your argument is
a) land of opportunity compared to a lot of other countries - well yes, no shit Sherlock, I’m sure a Sudanese kid would be over the moon to go to America, but it’s hardly then unique isn’t it? The same type of opportunity is afforded in well developed countries in the OECD just for instance, so where is this legendary mythical version of rags to riches story that America and only America can give you(Bald Eagle soaring by, anthems playing etc)? Meanwhile, in every meaning categories be it from education, healthcare, household income, life expectancy, public safety so on and so forth you are either stagnating or going backwards?

b) my parents made it - good for them, and for every instance like your parents there are tens and hundreds of household with the same desires who couldn’t make it because there is a whole socioeconomic net weighing down on them that only a few were ever lucky enough to swim out of. It’s like rolling a dice, keep at it long enough and you get the desired outcome, pure happenstance, not proof of a grand theory about the inclusiveness and abundance of opportunity as advertised.

Spot on especially the second point. “Well it worked for me” as an argument to represent the full context is extremely tiresome.

 

[Florida Man]

Bill Gates is supposedly retired and has recently passed Bezos as richest man in the world again.

Most are not saying that one cannot be wealthy. We’re just saying that they need to be a little less wealthy by paying their fair share of taxes and to stop hoarding trillions of dollars from being used in the economies around the world.

By the way shithole countries became shithole countries in large part because they were exploited for centuries by countries that are wealthy today. And some people wonder why there are immigrants trying to move to said countries.

 

[Carolina Red]

I didn't make any such casual equivalence. I'm comparing it to other problems and how its unrelated to the american dream. America has a gun problem. China has a human rights problem. There are similar extreme issues in almost any country. London just had another terror attack and has a problem with gangs.

America's gun problem is bad but if youd read my earlier post it was in response to it being unrelated to the aemrca

You did.

And with regards to the “American Dream”... there isn’t one. There’s tons of ways people are trying to make it in any country in the world and we all have dreams. There is no great monolithical “American Dream” that we all should aspire to. Read some Arthur Miller or something.

 

[Kinsella]

Meriam Webster: a person who comes to another country to take up permanent residence.

‘Of his own volition’ isn’t there, so...?

You've jumped through some amount of hoops in this exchange.

Perhaps all those who voted to Leave the European Union, because of immigration, were just following in the footsteps of William Wilberforce?

 

[Kinsella]

Wow... have you like, actually read a history book about China? Ever?

Are you actually aware of the differences between the two countries? i.e the issue that InfiniteBoredom actually raised.

 

[Kinsella]

Bill Gates is supposedly retired and has recently passed Bezos as richest man in the world again.

The former has committed to giving his wealth away afaik.

Most are not saying that one cannot be wealthy. We’re just saying that they need to be a little less wealthy by paying their fair share of taxes and to stop hoarding trillions of dollars from being used in the economies around the world.

According to the statistics from 2015, the top 1% in America earned 20.65% of the national income, and paid 39.04% of all federal income taxes. The figures for the top 5% are 36.07% and 59.58% respectively.

What would constitute a fairer distribution in your view then?

 

[berbatrick]

The former has committed to giving his wealth away.



According to the statistics from 2015, the top 1% in America earned 20.65% of the national income, and paid 39.04% of all federal income taxes. The figures for the top 5% are 36.07% and 59.58% respectively.

What would constitute a fairer distribution in your view then?

The top 1% own 40% of American wealth.

 

[Kinsella]

The top 1% own 40% of American wealth.

Do taxes make much of an impact on wealth, and the wealth of the billionaires mentioned in this discussion in particular?

 

[Florida Man]

The former has committed to giving his wealth away.



According to the statistics from 2015, the top 1% in America earned 20.65% of the national income, and paid 39.04% of all federal income taxes. The figures for the top 5% are 36.07% and 59.58% respectively.

What would constitute a fairer distribution in your view then?

True about Gates but I was illustrating that one could still acquire billions even if it’s not actively earned. After a certain point in wealth, you could literally sit on your ass and make millions and billions just by having millions and billions. Something’s broken in there somewhere.

Still, the extremely wealthy are notorious for skipping out on taxes. It happens on an individual level and on a company level. The biggest companies are still not paying their taxes. I don’t care what the percentages are, or how many jobs you create, if you’re a company as profitable as Amazon and you’re still not paying your fair share, then the system needs improving.

I’m personally in favor of a progressive tax. I couldn’t give you exact numbers, but essentially the goal would he to prevent people from becoming too wealthy to the point where they can override the law and buy politicians for their own benefit. Not quite the democracy I like. Hell, even if it had to he simplified to the point where all income and profits are taxed 20%, no exceptions, I’d like that too.

 

[Carolina Red]

Are you actually aware of the differences between the two countries? i.e the issue that InfiniteBoredom actually raised.

Yes, you could say that I am.

 

[berbatrick]

Do taxes make much of an impact on wealth, and the wealth of the billionaires mentioned in this discussion in particular?

They used to.

I am a little surprised given your general nostalgia and the type of your conservatism (which is not libertarian), that you are against high taxes. One of the main threats to families and the desire for babies in western countries, especially the US, is lower wages leading to the necessity of 2-income households, longer working hours, exorbitant childbirth costs, much higher costs for childcare, and, planning further, astronomical college tuition. There were economic factors, not just social conservatism, that produced the era you seem to be looking back on with fondness in your other posts.

 

[Kinsella]

They used to.

It affects their income, not so much their wealth. They've already accumulated the latter.

I am a little surprised given your general nostalgia and the type of your conservatism (which is not libertarian), that you are against high taxes. One of the main threats to families and the desire for babies in western countries, especially the US, is lower wages leading to the necessity of 2-income households, longer working hours, exorbitant childbirth costs, much higher costs for childcare, and, planning further, astronomical college tuition. There were economic factors, not just social conservatism, that produced the era you seem to be looking back on with fondness in your other posts.

Pointing out facts is nostalgic? Perhaps it is given that we're living in age where common sense is increasingly esoteric.

Which era am I supposedly looking back on with fondness btw?

 

[berbatrick]

It affects their income, not so much their wealth. They've already accumulated the latter.



Pointing out facts is nostalgic? Perhaps it is given that we're living in age where common sense is increasingly esoteric.

Which era am I supposedly looking back on with fondness btw?

About 30+ years ago.
> Pointing out facts is nostalgic
no idea where you got thi from

 

[Eboue]

The former has committed to giving his wealth away afaik.

He sucks at it considering his wealth has almost doubled since that "commitment".

 

[Kinsella]

He sucks at it considering his wealth has almost doubled since that "commitment".

You should start a Boycott Microsoft movement then.

 

[Eboue]

wow good one. you and shamans are killing it lately

 

[utdalltheway]

Bill Gates is supposedly retired and has recently passed Bezos as richest man in the world again.

Most are not saying that one cannot be wealthy. We’re just saying that they need to be a little less wealthy by paying their fair share of taxes and to stop hoarding trillions of dollars from being used in the economies around the world.

By the way shithole countries became shithole countries in large part because they were exploited for centuries by countries that are wealthy today. And some people wonder why there are immigrants trying to move to said countries.

I’d argue that some “shithole” countries stayed shitholes due to lack of good politicians.

 

[Carolina Red]

I’d argue that some “shithole” countries stayed shitholes due to lack of good politicians.

And that would be a rather shortsighted look at it.

 

[Kinsella]

wow good one. you and shamans are killing it lately

Cheers! We can't have those crazy bitter-man opinions going unchallenged.

 

[shamans]

So your argument is
a) land of opportunity compared to a lot of other countries - well yes, no shit Sherlock, I’m sure a Sudanese kid would be over the moon to go to America, but it’s hardly then unique isn’t it? The same type of opportunity is afforded in well developed countries in the OECD just for instance, so where is this legendary mythical version of rags to riches story that America and only America can give you(Bald Eagle soaring by, anthems playing etc)? Meanwhile, in every meaning categories be it from education, healthcare, household income, life expectancy, public safety so on and so forth you are either stagnating or going backwards?

b) my parents made it - good for them, and for every instance like your parents there are tens and hundreds of household with the same desires who couldn’t make it because there is a whole socioeconomic net weighing down on them that only a few were ever lucky enough to swim out of. It’s like rolling a dice, keep at it long enough and you get the desired outcome, pure happenstance, not proof of a grand theory about the inclusiveness and abundance of opportunity as advertised.

America is going back in education and household income? Anything to back your stats?

Also you realize each state within has a ton of differences. Some have better school systems then others.

Look at any list of top 50 universities in the world or highest paying jobs for programmers, doctors or engineers. America dominates these lists.

The proof is in the pudding. If every other country has the same amount of opportunity tell me why america is still the hub of innovation? Why is there a disproportionate number of successful enterepebuers here than any other country?

 

[shamans]

And that would be a rather shortsighted look at it.

It's not. Both arguments are correct. You cant just view things from one perspective. Its like saying people immigrating from central/south America to the states are plainly due to U.S destabilizing Latin America. Short sighted and naive.

 

[shamans]

Cheers! We can't have those crazy bitter-man opinions going unchallenged.

He will get back to you after he uploads an anti billionaire status on Facebook!

 

[Eboue]

enterepebuers

 

[Carolina Red]

It's not. Both arguments are correct. You cant just view things from one perspective. Its like saying people immigrating from central/south America to the states are plainly due to U.S destabilizing Latin America. Short sighted and naive.

You just refuted yourself in your own post. Well done.

 

[Eboue]

He will get back to you after he uploads an anti billionaire status on Facebook!

 

[Carolina Red]

America is going back in education and household income? Anything to back your stats?

We were ranked 6th in education in 1990. We were 27th in 2018.
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-ranks-27th-for-healthcare-and-education-2018-9

As for incomes...

Altogether, from 2000 to 2018, the median income for nonelderly households fell from $73,322 to $71,659, a decline of $1,663, or 2.3%. In short, the last four years should not make us forget that incomes for the majority of Americans have experienced a lost 18 years of growth.

https://www.epi.org/blog/slowdown-in-household-income-growth-continues-in-2018/

 

[Kinsella]

As for incomes...

Altogether, from 2000 to 2018, the median income for nonelderly households fell from $73,322 to $71,659, a decline of $1,663, or 2.3%. In short, the last four years should not make us forget that incomes for the majority of Americans have experienced a lost 18 years of growth.

https://www.epi.org/blog/slowdown-in-household-income-growth-continues-in-2018/

And how has the per capita income changed over the same period?

 

[Carolina Red]

And how has the per capita income changed over the same period?

Is your google broken?

 

[Kinsella]

Is your google broken?

Nope, I just wondered if you're intentionally confusing certain statistical categories with actual flesh and blood people.

 

[Carolina Red]

Nope, I just wondered if you're intentionally confusing certain statistical categories with actual flesh and blood people.

Can someone translate this for me?

 

[nimic]

Take @Eboue for instance. He hates billionaires but uses airbnb.

 

[Kinsella]

Can someone translate this for me?

Will do.

Simply put households are of different sizes, they vary over time; they vary from one group to another; they vary from one income level to another; and so on, so forth.

 

[kidbob]

Mark Zuckerburg went to Harvard FFS. Him being a child of the American Dream is bullshit. Also he is the exact guy who represents your 'dream'. "They just gave me all their information for free, the idiots". The 'dream' should be not becoming a millionaire/billionaire but that regular people can have a comfortable life. It was probably that at one point but now the dream is privileged arseholes who can use the system to make themselves billionaires instead of millionaires. It's bad when the bloody music industry is better than your 'dream', as shit as it is at least some unprivileged talented people can make it towards the top and live decently. Take this in @shamans your 'American Dream' is less effective than a industry that fecked over someone like the Beatles.

I got jumped a year and a half ago in Ireland. Just walking along the street coming home from my job (that I studied 6 years and worked my ass off for 2 years after to get) and this guy tried to steal my backpack. Ended up with a broken ankle in 3 places and a broken femur. Still just getting back to running now. It cost me 400 euro to get my ankle basically rebuilt. I have a good job but if we didn't have this system in Ireland I would've been ruined. You live in a country where the left wing party would be a centre right in my own. I don't love the Irish government at all but sometimes I forget how lucky I am that coming from a family who weren't well off I was allowed the opportunity to gain a degree that if it wasn't subsidised I would never have gotten and ended up working a dead end job because I wasn't rich enough to go to college. I'm glad that when I was assaulted randomly and had to take 6 months off work, at no fault of my own, that it didn't ruin me financially.

@shamans I don't always agree with @Eboue and the way he addresses people but you could honestly do with listening to him a bit more because you are brainwashed by the rich exactly how they want you to be. Or else your one of them and fair play if you are because you'll never have to deal with the problems that so many do.

Also if you think Bernie, who would be centrist in Europe, is a communist then you need to read a history book os at least speak to some of my friends who lived through Soviet Russia and can tell you exactly what communism is.

I'll be honest I have no idea if this post is relavant to the current topic but having seen enough of @shamans posts it needed to be said regardless of the topic at hand. But then if he is what I think he is then I've wasted my time even writing this out because he's too far gone.

 

[Carolina Red]

Will do.

Simply put households are of different sizes, they vary over time; they vary from one group to another; they vary from one income level to another; and so on, so forth.

Okay. So did you look up what you want us to see?

 

[Carolina Red]

Good post @kidbob

 

[Balljy]

It cost me 400 euro to get my ankle basically rebuilt

I was going to query why it cost you anything but googled the Irish health system and I think I know at least some of it. It looks like you pay 100 Euro to get A&E care unless you go through a doctor? That's a great idea, if you're in A&E that seems fine for something that should be an emergency by definition and therefore needs urgent care. If it's not an emergency, you should have gone to the doctor first.