After the re watch my overall opinion hasnt changed, still the best show on tv.
Going to try the books now.
Going to try the books now.
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Why do people seem to hate the Dorne part of the show?
It didn't seem to jar me when I watched it.
It didn't seem to jar me when I watched it.
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The Sand Snakes are literally the worst thing ever. The actors are all terrible and their lines are pretty bad too.
From a book reader POV they watered down one of the more exciting, political intrigues from the later books and essentially reduced them to soap opera characters with no real influence over their story. They were basically fan service because of how well Oberyn was received.
Also the Sand Snakes were acted terribly and arguably had the worse dialogue on the whole show.
They were pretty hot though so thats always a plus
Think that's why they never bothered me
I don't think I've seen a show nit picked to the extend GoT has, which is a testament to how good the show really was. Sure the last couple of seasons defied logic and was rushed, but there maintained a level of entertainment for me at least. Clegane battle, Cersei/Jaime's ending, Tyrion's fight of conscience, Sansa's rise to lady of Winterfell - I felt there was still a lot to enjoy.
But meh, victim of its own success after the first 4-5 seasons - no way they an write an ending that pleases all.
But meh, victim of its own success after the first 4-5 seasons - no way they an write an ending that pleases all.
Yeah I agree - it was an absolutely fantastic show and easily one of the biggest and best in the history of TV. Some of the episodes are the most incredible things I have ever seen on TV. I enjoyed the last season too as it had some spectacular and amazing moments - ok it was a bit rushed but damn it was still fantastic stuff.
I've said before I will never rewatch this because of the last 2 seasons but in the end I will I know it.
Ive just watched it and its better om 2nd viewing tbh.
I did a post a page back saying the few things id have changed just to make it all make a bit more sense but its still the best tv show ive seen.
Dont think we'll ever see that type of fanfare for anything again.
That video almost makes season 8 kind of worth it.Ah I was JUST about to post this
Well I hated the ending, but I'm rewatching the whole thing with my girlfriend (who hadn't seen it) and I'm loving it so far. I definitely can say, that the earlier seasons aren't ruined for me. Although we're up to 6.07 and I'm not really looking forward to seasons 7 and 8.
I did a rewatch the month before S8 so I'm not in a rush but I will in the end just for the earlier series which were astoundingly good.Well I hated the ending, but I'm rewatching the whole thing with my girlfriend (who hadn't seen it) and I'm loving it so far. I definitely can say, that the earlier seasons aren't ruined for me. Although we're up to 6.07 and I'm not really looking forward to seasons 7 and 8.
Jon gave up his role as Lord Commander and immediately surrendered the Northern crown. Why would it make more sense for him to suddenly take the Iron Throne?
Seen a lot of these endings saying Jon should have had a one-on-one with the Night King.
Did nobody watch The Long Night?
Did nobody watch The Long Night?
It's pointless debating GoT with you as you are clearly biased towards the show and have emotional ties that seemingly prevent you accepting any criticism.
You have chose not to consider the books canon to the show, however many people do consider the two one and same and Jon's journey throughout all mediums was hugely anticlimactic. The show runners even said themselves they wanted to "subvert expectations"rather than go with what made sense narratively and what they had contributed to building for almost a decade.
DnD clearly wanted nothing to do with the story beyond the Red Wedding and that became increasingly obvious the further they moved away from the novels.
If they didn't want to interpret and tell the rest of the story in keeping with the start they could have easily used one of the many abandoned plots from the books and allowed GRRM time to finish, or potentially give them more guidance on how to reach the end satisfactorily.
What we got instead was two guys who clearly wanted to wrap things up asap so they could move onto their next project. They butchered the plot they had helped developed for a few shocks at the end and a few grandiose set pieces which look good in montages and award ceremonies.
I can understand why you'd think this but I've made several posts in this thread, and a few on the past couple of pages, criticising the show - quite heavily in some instances. I didn't like the last two seasons as much as the first six (there were some dodgy storylines in season 7), and I think it's a shame that D&D ran out of source material because a full adaptation of the novels in the manner of the first four seasons would have been better than what we got. But simply enjoying the last two seasons for what they were doesn't mean I'm biased beyond reason and incapable of accepting any criticism of the show. I just try to look a bit deeper into what was there to find meaning. It doesn't have to be anybody else's meaning, just mine.
People asked for a one-on-one with Jon and the Night King. Well, they got one. They didn't get a sword fight, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a one-on-one. On dragonback, no less! I think battling dragons is a bit more epic than another sword fight, no? In fact, Jon even won the one-on-one by knocking the Night King to the ground. Jon's journey is only anticlimactic if you consider him to be the Aragorn of Game of Thrones, which I don't -- I consider him to be more like Frodo, a messenger who takes the world's responsibilities on his shoulders because he believes it's his duty. I haven't always felt this way but his ending caused me to reevaluate his arc and it became clear to me that he was a very damaged and more passive character after his resurrection.
(A subject I'm happy to discuss at length as I'm sure you've worked out.
)I also find it hard to believe that D&D wanted "nothing to do with the show after the Red Wedding". They could have jumped ship after season 3 in that case, or they could have jumped ship when the books ran out, or when they completed their original plan of only doing seven seasons. Instead they took three years to make the last thirteen episodes while cast and crew alike stretched every sinew to make them possible. For all the shortcomings of those thirteen episodes, they weren't for lack of effort. A lack of confidence, a lack of source material, a big change in priorities -- even a lack of talent if you want to be that way about it -- but I'm not sure they'd spend three years on something if they didn't want to do it anymore.
I can understand why you'd think this but I've made several posts in this thread, and a few on the past couple of pages, criticising the show - quite heavily in some instances. I didn't like the last two seasons as much as the first six (there were some dodgy storylines in season 7), and I think it's a shame that D&D ran out of source material because a full adaptation of the novels in the manner of the first four seasons would have been better than what we got. But simply enjoying the last two seasons for what they were doesn't mean I'm biased beyond reason and incapable of accepting any criticism of the show. I just try to look a bit deeper into what was there to find meaning. It doesn't have to be anybody else's meaning, just mine.
People asked for a one-on-one with Jon and the Night King. Well, they got one. They didn't get a sword fight, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a one-on-one. On dragonback, no less! I think battling dragons is a bit more epic than another sword fight, no? In fact, Jon even won the one-on-one by knocking the Night King to the ground. Jon's journey is only anticlimactic if you consider him to be the Aragorn of Game of Thrones, which I don't -- I consider him to be more like Frodo, a messenger who takes the world's responsibilities on his shoulders because he believes it's his duty. I haven't always felt this way but his ending caused me to reevaluate his arc and it became clear to me that he was a very damaged and more passive character after his resurrection.
(A subject I'm happy to discuss at length as I'm sure you've worked out.
I also find it hard to believe that D&D wanted "nothing to do with the show after the Red Wedding". They could have jumped ship after season 3 in that case, or they could have jumped ship when the books ran out, or when they completed their original plan of only doing seven seasons. Instead they took three years to make the last thirteen episodes while cast and crew alike stretched every sinew to make them possible. For all the shortcomings of those thirteen episodes, they weren't for lack of effort. A lack of confidence, a lack of source material, a big change in priorities -- even a lack of talent if you want to be that way about it -- but I'm not sure they'd spend three years on something if they didn't want to do it anymore.
Read any interview with DnD about the Red Wedding and you should see that was all they really wanted to make as they knew it would make for shocking TV.
Your comparisons of Jon and Frodo show how much you are stretching to make sense of the awful narrative decisions in the later seasons. If you didn't consider Jon as Frodo originally, who did you consider him as?
The ending of a story should not make you reevaluate the narrative and arcs that have been building over multiple series and novels.
While I believe they have hit the broad strokes of GRRMs outline (mainly mad Queen, as that is telegraphed a lot more in the books) they went off the deep end with some of their adaptations of storylines, mainly Jon. You simply do not spend 7 seasons building a character to make him a shadow of that character at the end. Arya's downing the NK was definitely their final attempt at shock and awe which made the show so famous in the early years.
If you don't think the ending of a story encourages reevaluation then I think we just look at storytelling in very different ways. For this reason alone I can't see us ever meeting in the middle on Jon, but I'll give it a go anyway. For the longest time I thought Jon was Aragorn -- the secret king, the prodigal son, the just ruler who would repair the world and live happily ever after. Find my posts about him from before season 8 if you don't believe me. Until the point of his death, I think Jon was just that. He joined the Night's Watch of his own volition, he lead the mission beyond the Wall to avenge Lord Commander Mormont, he was willing to sacrifice himself to assassinate Mance Rayder and then to retrieve the wildlings from Hardhome. As Sam said during the Night's Watch election, he was "the man we turned to when the night was darkest". A hero, a proper hearthrob, a king.
But then he was killed. All that nobility and leadership just sent him to his grave. After he came back, he was different. He was essentially dragged through everything he did by other people. First by Melisandre who brought him back in the first place, then by Sansa who convinced him to retake Winterfell even when he said he was "tired of fighting", then the Northmen who crowned him king, then by Daenerys who convinced him to bend the knee, and then by Tyrion who told him he had to kill Daenerys. For a lot of his journey after his resurrection, he was passive and living in denial. Tired of fighting and losing, tired of finding no joy in his talents, tired of power destroying everything good about the world. He gave up his role as Lord Commander, he gave up his title of King in the North within weeks of being crowned, and he continued to refuse the Iron Throne even when pushed by everyone around him. He didn't want the throne.
If Jon had taken the throne at the end, it would have not only received backlash for being incredibly unimaginative and a contradiction of everyone's favourite meme ("Ah dun wahn it"), but it would have endorsed the type of ending that GRRM didn't want. If you want to bring the books into this then let's do that: GRRM wrote A Song of Ice and Fire as something of a response to the end of Lord of the Rings, which suggested that a good king automatically equals a happy and prosperous land. GRRM wrote the books to argue that history has always taught us the complete opposite. If Game of Thrones ends with Jon on the throne as a good king who defeated the zombie army, ended all evil, and ruled forever and ever, then it would have basically been a rip-off of a thousand other fantasy stories and undermined the intentions of the story's creator. Jon "being built up across seven seasons", as you put it, is just the story providing you with the rug that it will eventually pull from under your feet.
Jon being built up to be king only to end up ruling nothing has the same intentions as Ned being built up to be the hero only to be killed, or Robb being built up as the new hero only to be killed, or Daenerys being built up to rule fairly only to tragically fail, or Oberyn being built up to be the hero only to be killed, or Margaery being built up to defeat Cersei only to be killed, etc. Some of those stories were told with more grace, nuance, and slight of hand than others, but the principles were all the same. That's the kind of story A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones both were. That's not to say more traditional heroes don't have a place in modern storytelling (the popularity of the Marvel Cinematic Universe suggests they do), and that's not to say anti-heroes are the only worthy form of protagonist these days (because that also just isn't true). But ASOIAF and GOT just told their own types of stories, one in which characters like Jon don't end up ruling the world forever and ever.
I've read many interviews with D&D (as you can imagine) and I always interpreted their comments about the Red Wedding as them simply being anxious to deliver it, not to just reach that one shock moment and then mentally check out. In fact, the best season (four), best episode ('The Winds of Winter'), and best scene (Hardhome) were all still to come. I'm not sure the show would have sustained such a level of quality and popularity during seasons 4-6 if they'd simply drifted through it without giving a shit. As I said, the show changed its priorities in later seasons, and I think D&D lost confidence in their ability to scrutinise the subtext and nuance underneath the plot they were crafting. I think the pacing of the last two seasons was affected by them a) not slowing down to let the characters reflect and take stock, b) thinking massive battle set-pieces were what the viewers wanted most. But I think there's a difference between them having shortcomings as original storytellers and them simply not being interested anymore.
There defo were two ways about this. The one they kinda went (but with a more logical reason - but Dany being the one who says let me end this.
She goes beyond the wall to try and roast the WW and NK before they can cross the wall. and thats where she loses a dragon out of haste and sees the threat.
Or
The NK crosses the wall due to Brans print, and she goes to meet NK, thinking they are nothing against dragons and dragon fire. And shes surprised and loses her dragon.
That way the NK having a dragon could actually be a bigger revelation then it proved to be. Maybe.
I mean when they heard the news it was basically just dismissed.
I see we we on to retrospectively shitting on the earlier seasons now as well.
Well it’d be weird if people were shitting on future seasons ‘retrospectively’ mate
I agree with you, I preferred season 6 to 5 by a fair margin. The season 6 finale was beautifully done, and I can see why you’d rank it so high. It loses points for me because of what happened after. Their was absolutely no consequence for Cersei and that made zero sense. The episode in isolation, is beautiful.
You're right that would be weird. Much weirder than shitting on 'earlier' and 'later' episodes.Well it’d be weird if people were shitting on future seasons ‘retrospectively’ mate
That doesn’t make any sense. Her death had nothing to do with her blowing up the sept.
She blew up the head of the dominant Westerosi religion, along with some of the most powerful aristocracy, without any base of support. She then took the throne, despite having absolutely no claim to it, and would be hated by everyone. It’s completely nonsensical.
edit: Has Robin been banned? His profile and comments have disappeared.
I can see his comments. Have you ignored him in a fit of amnesiac rage?
A man does not see him.
After seeing this I thought he must have ignored me, but it turns out he just deleted his last comment, when I clicked his name (within my post) it brought me to the profile doesn’t exist page and I put 2 and 2 together and got 5. Crisis averted.
I deleted that comment I made because I misread what you'd put. Apologies!
Edit: You're right. In the story I put it down to her committing an act so terrifying that nobody dares to challenge her. In reality I put it down to the writers cutting corners because the show needed to end.
Yeah I think the need to streamline things is what led to them taking that decision. I still love the episode in isolation. And didn’t mean to highlight the deleted comment or anything, just got confused because you, like me, have a private profile And I’m a twit.
To be honest, if you listen to enough interviews with them you'll hear them freely admitting to cutting corners. They did one recently at the Austin Film Festival where they basically said they looked at all the plots they had going on simultaneously in season 4 and were genuinely worried that people would lose interest, so in season 5 they started to narrow things down and condense plot points. Sansa and Theon's plots were condensed, Jon's plot was simplified, then they started wiping out families in seasons 6 & 7. By the last season they had two major plot strands which, for better or worse, at least allowed them to finish the story.
I had an idea back before season 8 of a rough storyline I would’ve liked to see play out. Key high level points were:
dany/jon meet Cersei to persuade her to come north to fight the WW. Cersei says she will help them and sends Jaime with them ahead of her army (which is still mustering).
cersei betrays the northern alliance, leaving them to fight the WW alone. Even Jaime wasn’t aware of her plan, and he dies alongside a bunch of other characters fighting the WW (thus redemption arc complete). Maybe she tells Jaime her plan at the last minute and he chooses to side with the north, maybe he just doesn’t know until he realises she has betrayed him, either way works for me.
the northerners manage to beat the NK but at great cost. They lose most of their army and probably a second dragon.
cersei marches up with her army and destroys the remnants of the northern army. She takes Winterfell and the remaining forces flee north, ultimately beyond the wall.
at this point I am less certain in what happens, but basically I think the northerners are so utterly desperate that they have to resort to something really dire - akin to when the Children of the Forest created the WWs originally. Maybe they use Jon to create a new NK (Bran knows how to do this from his visions. Maybe they have to sacrifice the last dragon in some way shape or form, which tips Dany over the edge into madness. Alternately, she is preggers with Jon's child, but dies in childbirth after going mad because of Jon becoming the NK.
Either way, they manage to do something along those lines to create something powerful enough to destroy Cersei’s army and retake the south, with Jon/new NK using the last remnants of his humanity to agree to return north of the wall. A bittersweet ending.
only thing I am missing (I’m sure I had an idea for how to fit this in, but I’ve forgotten) was I really wanted to see Dany and Jon fall out, and end up fighting each other atop their respective dragons - this would’ve been a great mirror of the original “Dance of Dragons” from ages before.
dany/jon meet Cersei to persuade her to come north to fight the WW. Cersei says she will help them and sends Jaime with them ahead of her army (which is still mustering).
cersei betrays the northern alliance, leaving them to fight the WW alone. Even Jaime wasn’t aware of her plan, and he dies alongside a bunch of other characters fighting the WW (thus redemption arc complete). Maybe she tells Jaime her plan at the last minute and he chooses to side with the north, maybe he just doesn’t know until he realises she has betrayed him, either way works for me.
the northerners manage to beat the NK but at great cost. They lose most of their army and probably a second dragon.
cersei marches up with her army and destroys the remnants of the northern army. She takes Winterfell and the remaining forces flee north, ultimately beyond the wall.
at this point I am less certain in what happens, but basically I think the northerners are so utterly desperate that they have to resort to something really dire - akin to when the Children of the Forest created the WWs originally. Maybe they use Jon to create a new NK (Bran knows how to do this from his visions. Maybe they have to sacrifice the last dragon in some way shape or form, which tips Dany over the edge into madness. Alternately, she is preggers with Jon's child, but dies in childbirth after going mad because of Jon becoming the NK.
Either way, they manage to do something along those lines to create something powerful enough to destroy Cersei’s army and retake the south, with Jon/new NK using the last remnants of his humanity to agree to return north of the wall. A bittersweet ending.
only thing I am missing (I’m sure I had an idea for how to fit this in, but I’ve forgotten) was I really wanted to see Dany and Jon fall out, and end up fighting each other atop their respective dragons - this would’ve been a great mirror of the original “Dance of Dragons” from ages before.
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Cutting corners would only be a valid excuse If others put restrictions on them
They put a restriction on themselves
They put a restriction on themselves
I just re-read the last chapter in each of the last three books. Each concerns a fairly major plot-line that the show producers consciously decided to leave out altogether.
There was so much more material there for a full ten-season run under producers who actually understood and were committed to Martin’s vision. Such a shame we never got to see some of these scenes and characters.
There was so much more material there for a full ten-season run under producers who actually understood and were committed to Martin’s vision. Such a shame we never got to see some of these scenes and characters.
And, in the case of Euron, an utter travesty of the book character.
I think this is the very worst thing they did. Unforgivable, there is no justification for it.
He felt like a cheap jack sparrow. There's no way his character should have thrived the way he was portrayed on TV
I’ve only read one book, but from what I can tell based on stuff like the recent review below they completely wasted the potential here:
Just compare show Euron’s “big cock!” speech at the Kingsmoot (starts at 02.20):
with this absolute epicness: