SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Sparky Rhiwabon said:
Don’t we only need one to work?
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One highly effective one would be the minimum although more would be much better.

I was thinking more of the mental effects if one of the main candidates e.g. the Oxford vaccine failed before we had a success. Even though that wouldn't be unexpected and wouldn't doom attempts to find a working vaccine we already have people talking about giving up and letting the virus run wild. The current poor levels of compliance we are seeing in places would probably escalate and that could be disastrous.
 
So NI have closed the schools, others in Europe have closed bars/restaurants. Will be interesting to see what changes regarding cases.

Getting really bad across Europe. 22k cases in France,, 12k in Spain. Italy have now passed 7k, Germany over 6k. Netherlands another 7K. Belgium 7k.
 
Definitely a second wave taking hold across all of Europe. I find it fascinating how during pandemics, once the first initial wave is over, subsequent waves have taken hold in certain continents rather than a general surge across the world. It happened with the flu in the 1920's as well after the relatively smaller first wave.
 
Port Vale Devil said:
I don’t believe that for a second. Maybe some polls are saying that but people have had enough of all the disgraceful behaviour from our government and our fellow citizens.

We lock ourselves up while the idiots carry on like nothing is happening then they expect people to not have their grandchildren over to stay perhaps even over Christmas. Not dishing out heavy fines at the outset and giving the likes of Cummings a free pass just piss people off who have abided by the laws.
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Cummings (and others) who blatantly ignored the rules they set, was the catalyst really.
 
Port Vale Devil said:
The idiots will still not abide by the laws and nothing will happen to them whatsoever. Until the government crackdown on people where it hurts they are just kicking the can down the road.

People are sick to the back teeth of keeping inside, not seeing families while the government feck things up again. Look over the road and see a party going on then expect yourself to be away from loved ones.

It won’t wash again I’m afraid and the government and ourselves are to blame.
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Wash your hands
Eat out to help out
Get brexit done
 
I can't imagine they'll be any compliance at all over the christmas period. I barely leave the house and even I'm going to travel and visit family.

I refuse to rob both sets of grandparents from seeing their grandsons first proper Christmas when they've seen him like twice all year. Especially when other people have been carrying on as normal.

It's why the government should be honest and say we need to lockdown hard now for say 6 weeks to allow some loosening over Christmas.
 
Smores said:
I can't imagine they'll be any compliance at all over the christmas period. I barely leave the house and even I'm going to travel and visit family.

I refuse to rob both sets of grandparents from seeing their grandsons first proper Christmas when they've seen him like twice all year. Especially when other people have been carrying on as normal.

It's why the government should be honest and say we need to lockdown hard now for say 6 weeks to allow some loosening over Christmas.
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This is 100% what I think. Half the problem at the moment is the wishywashy nature of the advice, the “one rule for them” feeling breaking the “all in it together” attitude that got us through the first lock down and the endless nature with no hope that is making people say “we can’t go on like this forever, we just need to get on with life now”.

I think a 4 week hard lock down throughout November with the promise of relaxed restrictions if we manage to significantly reduce the R number would give people something to work towards and would reintroduce the team mentality. ,
 
Pexbo said:
This is 100% what I think. Half the problem at the moment is the wishywashy nature of the advice, the “one rule for them” feeling breaking the “all in it together” attitude that got us through the first lock down and the endless nature with no hope that is making people say “we can’t go on like this forever, we just need to get on with life now”.

I think a 4 week hard lock down throughout November with the promise of relaxed restrictions if we manage to significantly reduce the R number would give people something to work towards and would reintroduce the team mentality. ,
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I think that’s kind of implicit but I agree, the messaging could be better. Some sort of a campaign around “crushing the curve for Christmas” might get more buy in then the confusion and upset we’re currently going through. God knows politicians are quick to hire PR gonks when there’s an election around the corner!
 
golden_blunder said:
Cummings (and others) who blatantly ignored the rules they set, was the catalyst really.
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That view really is a cop out and a load of ballcocks. Cummings certainly was a disgrace but then so was Kinnock and a few others. If your supposition is correct then Cummings must have a long reach for Ireland appears to be fecked as does France, Netherlands, Spain etc and even Germany look like they might be in trouble. Also if you are right then we have a considerable number of inhabitants who are a sandwich short of a picnic many of whom are supposedly intelligent enough to go to uni. Excuses as to why we are not obeying the advice/rules are for many exactly that.......excuses.
 
It’ll be unpopular with some, but i can’t really see SAGE advocating a day of the country mixing on Christmas Day. The impact of that amount of contacts will potentially have on the health system, come the early New Year, will be greater than what we’re seeing now.
 
I've no idea what the right policy is, but some alien observer would find it bizarre that we're focusing timing around a completely arbitrary date like Christmas. "Why can't the humans just delay their Christmas until the infection rate is low enough?"
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I've no idea what the right policy is, but some alien observer would find it bizarre that we're focusing timing around a completely arbitrary date like Christmas. "Why can't the humans just delay their Christmas until the infection rate is low enough?"
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Yup. And their minds would also be blown by recent decisions in Israel.
 
Personally speaking, I'm cool to have Christmas with just the immediate family this year (i.e. 6 people rather than 30+) after self isolating for a fortnight for a 2nd time this year, but I will be doing something for new years with mates my age. I've skipped all parties until this point so it doesn't seem egregious to me to have just the one. You do need to do something to boost morale and strengthen resolve when things last over exceptionally long periods. We're not exactly in the Christmas truce mindset of 1914 but that is an example of something dangerous and completely out of place that served a real purpose. Whether that's on Jan 1st exactly is less important.
 
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F-Red said:
It’ll be unpopular with some, but i can’t really see SAGE advocating a day of the country mixing on Christmas Day. The impact of that amount of contacts will potentially have on the health system, come the early New Year, will be greater than what we’re seeing now.
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True. But a halfway capable government would talk and lead.

To enable a less restricted Christmas Day, you only need the entire attending bubble to impose a strict two week self-isolation on themselves. It’s not hard. It sucks. But shrinking your life as much as possible for two weeks is doable.

That needs to be government led. With examples and simple messaging. Not lies, graphs and politicking.

Also, elephant in room - TEST, TRACK, TRACE fcuking working.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
True. But a halfway capable government would talk and lead.

To enable a less restricted Christmas Day, you only need the entire attending bubble to impose a strict two week self-isolation on themselves. It’s not hard. It sucks. But shrinking your life as much as possible for two weeks is doable.
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Shut the country down for 2 weeks off the back of one day? It’s never going to happen.

I don’t think any scientist worth their salt is going to advocate the levels of mixing for Christmas Day, to then put health services to a level above breaking point.

UnrelatedPsuedo said:
That needs to be government led. With examples and simple messaging. Not lies, graphs and politicking.

Also, elephant in room - TEST, TRACK, TRACE fcuking working.
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Agree, failures in communication has been the story since the beginning and not utilising devolved approach on test and trace is the bigger issue for me. The bigger elephant in the room still is the publics compliance to test & trace, it’s ridiculously low. Having a system is one thing, but if people don’t follow it then the buck stops there. The virus only thrives on human contact, not an inefficient government system sadly.
 
F-Red said:
It’ll be unpopular with some, but i can’t really see SAGE advocating a day of the country mixing on Christmas Day. The impact of that amount of contacts will potentially have on the health system, come the early New Year, will be greater than what we’re seeing now.
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It depends on the R rate going into December i guess. It's never going to be something health experts are going to recommend during a pandemic but I'm sure they've been advising against most of our activities over the summer.

I can't think of a better way to get people to comply than giving them a meaningful target. It also increases the shame of noncompliance as it has a more direct impact on others.

Most of all though I'd have thought the government would want a way to avoid any blame for cancelling Christmas. That will be an absolute disaster for them and Boris will forever have that legacy. You'll have Boris photoshopped as the Grinch/Scrooge in nearly every paper. More likely is they allow it irrespective so he can claim to have saved Christmas.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
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True. But a halfway capable government would talk and lead.

To enable a less restricted Christmas Day, you only need the entire attending bubble to impose a strict two week self-isolation on themselves. It’s not hard. It sucks. But shrinking your life as much as possible for two weeks is doable.

That needs to be government led. With examples and simple messaging. Not lies, graphs and politicking.

Also, elephant in room - TEST, TRACK, TRACE fcuking working.
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What does it mean for test and trace to "work", in your view, and how many countries can you name that have met that standard?
 
F-Red said:
Shut the country down for 2 weeks off the back of one day? It’s never going to happen.

I don’t think any scientist worth their salt is going to advocate the levels of mixing for Christmas Day, to then put health services to a level above breaking point.



Agree, failures in communication has been the story since the beginning and not utilising devolved approach on test and trace is the bigger issue for me. The bigger elephant in the room still is the publics compliance to test & trace, it’s ridiculously low. Having a system is one thing, but if people don’t follow it then the buck stops there. The virus only thrives on human contact, not an inefficient government system sadly.
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No. Personal responsibility.

If you want to have a gathering because family matters so much.... get the family on the phone, impose some rules on yourself and have a good day. Don’t wait for rules. The government will not keep you safe.

We’ve been doing it since May/June. If I go somewhere with higher risk, I won’t see the old folks for 2 weeks. It’s not hard to cut out the selfish behaviour.

With that said, many workers that mingle will struggle. It’s no silver bullet but there are ways through this.
 
8k cases today and nearly 100 dead. Of course morons are still laughing and protesting for their 'freedom'. I'm so scared for my family.
 
Brwned said:
What does it mean for test and trace to "work", in your view, and how many countries can you name that have met that standard?
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If this is the part you try and tell me we have a world leading system we should probably dead it now.

I got a Covid test on Monday. I don’t have results yet.

I could have flown to Frankfurt Airport, got a test on arrival, had my results in 5 hours and been back home before tea.

The UK doesn’t even have the beginnings of a system. We just talk about how good we are at buying cotton swabs. That’s it. That’s your 12 Billion. The ability to test with slightly longer cotton buds.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
If this is the part you try and tell me we have a world leading system we should probably dead it now.

I got a Covid test on Monday. I don’t have results yet.

I could have flown to Frankfurt Airport, got a test on arrival, had my results in 5 hours and been back home before tea.

The UK doesn’t even have the beginnings of a system. We just talk about how good we are at buying cotton swabs. That’s it. That’s your 12 Billion. The ability to test with slightly longer cotton buds.
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I don't understand why everyone isn't doing the 30-minute fast tests. If they can do them in Italy (the zenith of bureaucratic officialdom), surely they can do them in every other European country? I think we actually waited 25 minutes for our results last week and then we were on our way.

At present, in the community people have to see their GP and be referred to a (local) centre if they think they have Covid, but in a week or so GPs will be able to administer the tests themselves. It makes sense - keep people in their own locality and make it quick and easy to get tested.
 
Smores said:
It depends on the R rate going into December i guess. It's never going to be something health experts are going to recommend during a pandemic but I'm sure they've been advising against most of our activities over the summer.

I can't think of a better way to get people to comply than giving them a meaningful target. It also increases the shame of noncompliance as it has a more direct impact on others.

Most of all though I'd have thought the government would want a way to avoid any blame for cancelling Christmas. That will be an absolute disaster for them and Boris will forever have that legacy. You'll have Boris photoshopped as the Grinch/Scrooge in nearly every paper. More likely is they allow it irrespective so he can claim to have saved Christmas.
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If the R is currently around 1.5, and thats with measures coming in now to reduce it, i can see it being higher than 1.5 post December if they allow it.

Agree in that the public have something to aim for then compliance could be higher, its a shame we have to get to that position sadly. Also agree in that the government will want to avoid the blame, i think this is why we’ve seen this shift onto tier 3 having a baseline and then local authorities dictating the measures on top. That way they can pass the blame onto to local authorities for ruining Christmas.

UnrelatedPsuedo said:
With that said, many workers that mingle will struggle. It’s no silver bullet but there are ways through this.
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Agree on the silver bullet, it’s a bit of a tough approach thats needed to get through the winter. Liverpool already at 90% ICU capacity, and adding Christmas COVID cases into the mix of the usual flu and winter struggles and it’ll be a difficult January. It’ll be interesting to see the approach as we move into December.
 
Virgil said:
That view really is a cop out and a load of ballcocks. Cummings certainly was a disgrace but then so was Kinnock and a few others. If your supposition is correct then Cummings must have a long reach for Ireland appears to be fecked as does France, Netherlands, Spain etc and even Germany look like they might be in trouble. Also if you are right then we have a considerable number of inhabitants who are a sandwich short of a picnic many of whom are supposedly intelligent enough to go to uni. Excuses as to why we are not obeying the advice/rules are for many exactly that.......excuses.
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When does intelligence = logic or common sense? I read many opinions and heard from many people who basically gave up following rules properly when there was no comeback on Cummings. The reasoning was that nothing would be done to them by authorities. That has filtered down to the people who now run amok on the streets, they know nothing will happen to them. I’m not saying that this applies to all, but a portion of people.

and yeah, I agree. Excuses are just excuses and everyone who is doing whatever they like right now will no doubt have their own excuse. But for me, if they had set the tone with Cummings and others more people would have stayed compliant. Instead they created a one rule for them and one rule for us mentality.

but ultimately, this can only be controlled by every single person taking personal responsibility
 
golden_blunder said:
When does intelligence = logic or common sense? I read many opinions and heard from many people who basically gave up following rules properly when there was no comeback on Cummings. The reasoning was that nothing would be done to them by authorities. That has filtered down to the people who now run amok on the streets, they know nothing will happen to them. I’m not saying that this applies to all, but a portion of people.

and yeah, I agree. Excuses are just excuses and everyone who is doing whatever they like right now will no doubt have their own excuse. But for me, if they had set the tone with Cummings and others more people would have stayed compliant. Instead they created a one rule for them and one rule for us mentality.

but ultimately, this can only be controlled by every single person taking personal responsibility
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I hate this little englander exceptionalism we have as a country.

In 2012 it manifested as flags and togetherness and an innocent pride.

In the 8 years since it’s been repackaged and weaponised as something tawdry.

But there is still a soft centre in there. This country does have an innate sense of fairness. I’m not saying it’s good/bad, right or wrong. But it’s there.

To have that sense of fairness broken by trusted officials, and see that unfairness not punished... it fcuks with people. It’s not one incident. It’s many.

Yet We’ve now got this weird dynamic where folks won’t stop supporting a government they hate, because the other team has lots of Remainers in it. Brexit battle lines are trumping life/death.

We are so fecked.
 
Nickosaur said:
Getting that lovely looming feeling of dread and despair. Anyone else?
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For sure, it's going to be a very long winter. But I'm still moderately optimistic 2021 will be better than 2020. If Trump wins though, it'll be very tough to retain much optimism at all.
 
It's getting a bit 'every man for himself' now. Which wouldn't be too bad if only the stupid contracted the virus, but it's all the people in public-facing jobs I feel sorry for, they have to keep working to pay for everything, and they're being put at risk too, through no fault of their own.

I do think we will have a vaccine next year though, which will help, and if some people are too stupid to take it that's their hard luck.
 
711 said:
It's getting a bit 'every man for himself' now.
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To be honest its never been any different, it is just in this case, some people lose their lives, whilst others lose their livelihoods; how these two public conditions are reconciled will decide everyone's future.
 
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MikeUpNorth said:
'Tier 2' being brought in for those of us in London.
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Bollocks. Two questions
-I'm meant to go be going back up north to see my mother next week- will I get any grief for doing this? (No-one seems to be checking anything, given my experience of Heathrow in September)
-We're meant to be going on hols at the end of the month- I guess flying out the country is no issue
 
golden_blunder said:
Cummings (and others) who blatantly ignored the rules they set, was the catalyst really.
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Rules dont work without implementing 'the stick'.

IF covid19 isn't solvable via the vaccine and remain virulent for a few more years, western countries will have to examine their culture of 'freedom' if they want to revive their economies.
EG people will have to accept mandated digital tracking and accept the privacy impact that has and accept draconian penalties for breaking such measures such as quarantine.

I cant see any other way of mitigating behaviours recently seen in Liverpool or the Hague.
 
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Liverpool not happy with tier 3.


Pub rebrands as 'The Three B***ends' in dig at under fire Tory trio

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https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/new...IDyVmliH9YilwB6PI-Guf0Kv4kRzif_PKuDTFk0w3n4Iw
 
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