Rashford and Martial are a problem

Sea-Cow said:
God I hope so. Having someone in the same league as Harry Kane leading the line would be such a drastic improvement in our performances and hopefully, results.

I know that is dumb because you could say that about any team, and I am not helpful because I don't really know any options for the role, besides Haaland. But, we will go nowhere if we keep relying on Martial.
Click to expand...
This LaLigaLive article shows some alternatives that have a strike rate which would be really useful for us currently.
https://ligalive.net/en/ten-of-the-...ropes-top-five-leagues-in-the-2020-21-season/
I’d like to see us take a punt on someone this month because it feels like the rest of the season is going to stretch the squad and Rashford and Martial are looking less than 100% fit and neither has Maguire’s durability.
 
Plymouth Red said:
Maybe there’s a risk of paralysis by analysis? I equate consistency to reliability, so whichever way you look at it, a proven goal scorer keeps putting the ball in the net when chances present.
Click to expand...

Except that distinguishing between a simple appearances figure and actual minutes played is extremely relevant, as the other poster pointed out to you. It becomes even sillier when you're comparing Van Nistelrooy's goals-to-appearances with two players who joined the first team aged 18 and 20 and haven't played as strikers for the majority of their career so far.

Plymouth Red said:
In each of these comparisons, what is clear is that Martial and Rashford don’t compare well with the majority of the names on this list. Pogue has pointed out age and experience differences, which is fair but it still feels to me like neither of them are demonstrating that they are improving as their game time increases.
Click to expand...

Again, apart from the clear evidence that they have been improving season on season, up until Martial's regression so far this season.

If they played for another club and had put in the performances they did for United last season, this place would be crying out for both of them. Just look at the hard-on everyone has for Grealish, a player two years older than Rashford who's just about edging him performance-wise for the first time in their careers this year.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, I’ve watched the replay a few times. He did have a chance to play Cavani in early on but it wasn’t an easy pass and Fabinho would have had a chance to follow the ball and run down Cavani.

After that opportunity went away he had to either beat Fabinho himself or hope for Pogba to somehow find an extra few yards of pace so he could play him through. There was no chance to get the ball to Cavani in any of those images other than some sort of extravagant backheel, which would be easily read.

Basically Fabinho’s management of the situation was absolutely flawless.
Click to expand...
Haha yes, exactly this. It was frustrating because it looked like a golden opportunity, in a game when opportunities were at a premium. But I don't think anyone on earth could have played in Cavani there. Fabinho can beat Cavani in a sprint, and if he plays it slightly harder or more into space behind, then the keeper comes out and clears.
 
Neither are good enough to be the focal point of attack for the team at this time.

Either they train up on how to be a proper number 9 or do the honorable thing and let someone else like Cavani do the job full time.
 
Brexit_Brigade said:
Except that distinguishing between a simple appearances figure and actual minutes played is extremely relevant, as the other poster pointed out to you. It becomes even sillier when you're comparing Van Nistelrooy's goals-to-appearances with two players who joined the first team aged 18 and 20 and haven't played as strikers for the majority of their career so far.



Again, apart from the clear evidence that they have been improving season on season, up until Martial's regression so far this season.

If they played for another club and had put in the performances they did for United last season, this place would be crying out for both of them. Just look at the hard-on everyone has for Grealish, a player two years older than Rashford who's just about edging him performance-wise for the first time in their careers this year.
Click to expand...
You seem to be ignoring the fact that in both the total appearances and minutes played stats, Martial and Rashford compare poorly with most of the other players. I don’t see therefore how this is silly, when it is factual.
I use the RvN stats to illustrate the difference between a genuine top class striker and the combined effort of two current players who many posters, including yourself possibly, believe are beyond reproach.
I want them to be successful so the team wins silverware, but I just don’t buy in the narrative that they are absolutely top drawer. Too often, I see each of them showing poor judgement, selfishness, lack of effort and wastefulness and it’s so regular that I believe these traits are embedded weaknesses which time won’t solve.
I close with the same question to you that I have asked others.
Today, if we wanted to strengthen our attack and they were playing elsewhere, would you buy one or both and if so, how much would you pay?
 
Sea-Cow said:
Haha yes, exactly this. It was frustrating because it looked like a golden opportunity, in a game when opportunities were at a premium. But I don't think anyone on earth could have played in Cavani there. Fabinho can beat Cavani in a sprint, and if he plays it slightly harder or more into space behind, then the keeper comes out and clears.
Click to expand...

Fabinho and Henderson were really impressive. Especially at holding the line, something I thought we could exploit with Henderson. Annoying.

In that instance Rashford of course could have also tried to do something different than run into absolute no man's land. Like actually beat Fabinho or take a shot
 
Plymouth Red said:
You seem to be ignoring the fact that in both the total appearances and minutes played stats, Martial and Rashford compare poorly with most of the other players. I don’t see therefore how this is silly, when it is factual.
Click to expand...

I'm not ignoring it, because the "fact" is clearly affected by the fact that Martial has played one season exclusively as a striker, and Rashford maybe half a season - his very first one. It's also useless to look at their aggregate stats going back to when both were teenagers and clearly inconsistent. Martial's goals-to-minutes ratio has been at or above 1 in 2 games for three seasons now, which is reasonable enough

Plymouth Red said:
Today, if we wanted to strengthen our attack and they were playing elsewhere, would you buy one or both and if so, how much would you pay?
Click to expand...

I don't think this is quite the gotcha question you seem to be framing it as.

If Rashford and Martial had hit 17 league goals each playing for another team last season and I wanted to strengthen United's attack, I'd obviously be looking to buy both of them. Rashford is in the four or five best left-sided forwards in the league right now, and the only strikers I'd say are clearly better than Martial (assuming he isn't permanently crap now - fair assumption for me considering he's hardly the only player in the league struggling for form this season) are Kane, Aguero, Vardy and Aubameyang. Werner probably will be once Lampard gets a clue or Chelsea bring in a good manager.

I never said they're top drawer or beyond reproach either - obviously, you want someone at the very top bracket and neither of them is quite there yet. Last season was the first time both of them played to a level you'd want for a team that wants to compete at the top. Rashford is building on it now, Martial isn't, both of them should be doing better, neither of them are world class.

But they're both good players who've been getting some outrageous criticism (Rashford in particular) from the legions of knee-jerk geniuses on this board. Your comparison with Van Nistelrooy wasn't nearly as god-awful as that Dan James one, but it wasn't particularly illustrative either.
 
I don't feel Ole has the balls to drop Rashford and play Cavani. Both Martial and Rashford have been crap lately BUT Martial has been better of the 2 overal...
 
Call me old fashioned but I do miss 4-4-2 and wide midfielders/wingers in particular. I think the skillset of a wide forward is much less demanding as goals are shared between a front three and there is much less defending due to 2 holding midfielders. Bringing it back to Martial and Rashford, they wouldn't have survived in a Ferguson team as they aren't prolific enough to be a striker or hard-working or well-rounded enough to be a wide midfielder
 
Pexbo said:
What those pictures don’t show is how well the Liverpool defence boxed him in and shepherded him to safety. It’s not like he ever had a clear opportunity to cut it back to Cavani, Fabinho was parallel blocking that angle at all times.
Click to expand...
He had a big chance early on to pass forward to cavani and he would have been through.
 
Will Singh said:
I don't feel Ole has the balls to drop Rashford and play Cavani. Both Martial and Rashford have been crap lately BUT Martial has been better of the 2 overal...
Click to expand...

Wait.... sorry. Martial has been better than Rashford? Why? What's he done?Even with Rashford playing poorly he's popping up with big goals and assists.

Rashford can be frustrating with his final ball but judging by Martial's goals and assists he's not better and if anything he's worse. He's having zero impact for us upfront or from the wing. At least Rashford is producing goals.
 
dcrompton said:
Call me old fashioned but I do miss 4-4-2 and wide midfielders/wingers in particular. I think the skillset of a wide forward is much less demanding as goals are shared between a front three and there is much less defending due to 2 holding midfielders. Bringing it back to Martial and Rashford, they wouldn't have survived in a Ferguson team as they aren't prolific enough to be a striker or hard-working or well-rounded enough to be a wide midfielder
Click to expand...

I agree. I was wondering what happened to "true" wingers... then I realized that "true" centre forwards have died out too, so there's no-one for wingers to cross to. It's a strange situation for those of us used to Ferguson's teams.
 
dcrompton said:
Bringing it back to Martial and Rashford, they wouldn't have survived in a Ferguson team as they aren't prolific enough to be a striker or hard-working or well-rounded enough to be a wide midfielder
Click to expand...

Ferguson won a title with Valencia and Young on the wings and lost one on goal difference with Welbeck up front, and that's just in the last two seasons of his career. Give him 20-year-old Martial and 18-year-old Rashford back in 2015, and they'd be the best in the league right now!

Regarding your point about the skillset of a wide forward being less demanding nowadays, I think that's a very broad generalization, especially when you look at the difference in 1) how most teams press now compared to the mid-2000s 4-4-2 days, 2) how top teams now are even more likely to vary their attacking patterns instead of focusing on crossing, and 3) how much better and more offensively involved most opposition full-backs are now. And a wide attacker at a top team is expected to be as prolific as a traditional striker would have been before.

If anything, the requirements are much higher now for both strikers and wingers, and a player like 2012 Valencia (who was an excellent touchline-hugging winger but didn't have much else to his game) would most likely be playing full-back from the get-go if he was getting into a top team.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
Wait.... sorry. Martial has been better than Rashford? Why? What's he done?Even with Rashford playing poorly he's popping up with big goals and assists.

Rashford can be frustrating with his final ball but judging by Martial's goals and assists he's not better and if anything he's worse. He's having zero impact for us upfront or from the wing. At least Rashford is producing goals.
Click to expand...
I would agree with him that Martial's general play has been better than Rashford for the last month or so. In the last 10 games their stats have been quite similar despite Martial playing almost a game less (4 goals and 3 assists for Rashford, 3 goals and 4 assists for Martial), and Martial has had quite a few matches where he's played quite well but hasn't scored. Obviously he's still not at his best and he's also had some poor games in there as well, but he does seem to be getting back to better form. Rashford has been quite poor for most of those matches, although he's still managed to get a decent amount of g+a.
 
MadDogg said:
I would agree with him that Martial's general play has been better than Rashford for the last month or so. In the last 10 games their stats have been quite similar despite Martial playing almost a game less (4 goals and 3 assists for Rashford, 3 goals and 4 assists for Martial), and Martial has had quite a few matches where he's played quite well but hasn't scored. Obviously he's still not at his best and he's also had some poor games in there as well, but he does seem to be getting back to better form. Rashford has been quite poor for most of those matches, although he's still managed to get a decent amount of g+a.
Click to expand...

Martial goes on one or two crazy dribbles a game and people wet their pants. He did it at the weekend and beat 2 to 3 players but he lost the ball at the end of it. What's good that?

Martial isn't playing better than Rashford. He just isn't frustrating people as much because he's not in the game hardly. That's the difference.

I'd take Rashford any day of the week and most of our rivals would too. Martial seems to be rated much higher in our fanbase than he is out of it.
 
I wouldn’t say Rashford is a problem, and to say that Martial has been better than Rashford is beyond me.

Agree he has been poor compared to his standard. He has lost the ball a lot and I’ve missed his final edge lately.

But... Rashford was immense against Leicester, and in most games he has created a lot more than Martial.
 
You know what pisses me off about that Rashford/cavani chance? If it was Martial in place of Cavani, rashford would have 100% passed. They both need to let go of the silly bromance its killing us.
 
KennyBurner said:
You know what pisses me off about that Rashford/cavani chance? If it was Martial in place of Cavani, rashford would have 100% passed. They both need to let go of the silly bromance its killing us.
Click to expand...

Just look at the situation. Rashford has no opportunity to pass to Cavani. For that matter, it doesn't even look like Cavani is seeking the pass - he's drawing his marker away to create space for Rashford to move into. But Fabinho takes that space away, and then steers him into a non-threatening area. That's masterful defending, not a mistake by Rashford. He might have sought out Pogba coming in from the right though.
 
justsomebloke said:
Just look at the situation. Rashford has no opportunity to pass to Cavani. For that matter, it doesn't even look like Cavani is seeking the pass - he's drawing his marker away to create space for Rashford to move into. But Fabinho takes that space away, and then steers him into a non-threatening area. That's masterful defending, not a mistake by Rashford. He might have sought out Pogba coming in from the right though.
Click to expand...
This is so false!

Rashford was in a similar situation against everton in the fA cup and he made the pass. Of course it was a much slower event but if you rewatch the liverpool highlight again there was a small window of opportunity for him to make the pass. he has been in this scenario multiple times so muscle memory should have at least guided him.

Also if what you say about Cavani's intention during the play is so true why was he so angry at the end? Not dissapointed but angry like he was expecting a different outcome/decision from Rashford. Its clear he wanted rashford to make the incisive pass just before he got offside and fabinho started to guide him away.
 
Hopefully Ole will do the team a favour and leave Rashford on the bench for 90mins
 
KennyBurner said:
This is so false!

Rashford was in a similar situation against everton in the fA cup and he made the pass. Of course it was a much slower event but if you rewatch the liverpool highlight again there was a small window of opportunity for him to make the pass. he has been in this scenario multiple times so muscle memory should have at least guided him.

Also if what you say about Cavani's intention during the play is so true why was he so angry at the end? Not dissapointed but angry like he was expecting a different outcome/decision from Rashford. Its clear he wanted rashford to make the incisive pass just before he got offside and fabinho started to guide him away.
Click to expand...

Rewatched it. No way. Of course, he can pass to Cavani while they're still level, but that would be a pass to a player less well placed than he is. doesn't look like Cavani is trying to draw the marker though, I'll retract on that.
 
justsomebloke said:
Rewatched it. No way. Of course, he can pass to Cavani while they're still level, but that would be a pass to a player less well placed than he is. doesn't look like Cavani is trying to draw the marker though, I'll retract on that.
Click to expand...
Cavani had more momentum than fabinho at this stage. A well placed pass into space and cavani gets there just in time to score/miss. The window was small but it was the obvious play before rashford decided against it and the Liverpool defense got organized.
 
On the general issue, I think there's been a good few more key offensive situations lately than before where you can question Rashford's decision making, and it does seem like he's grown overly fond of hanging on to the ball. That suggests he is in need of adjusting his game.

But let's have some perspective here. There's no question he and Bruno has carried the team offensively this season, and to suggest he's a problem or should be benched is just absurd.
 
KennyBurner said:
Cavani had more momentum than fabinho at this stage. A well placed pass into space and cavani gets there just in time to score/miss. The window was small but it was the obvious play before rashford decided against it and the Liverpool defense got organized.
Click to expand...

Well, we'll have to disagree on that. I don't think there's a window.
 
Cavani made a run that quality number 9’s make. There was a real opportunity for Marcus Rashford to play him in behind but the opportunity was lost. Frustrating to watch and just not good enough really. Difference between a world class player and a player capable of really good things, occasionally but not often enough.
 
Seriously, what's with the obsession with this situation? Okay, there are different opinions about whether there was a possibility to pass at all. But the fact of that disagreement also tells you that this was, at best and even if you think a pass was possible, a situation where creating a goal would have required the most exquisite timing, a lot of luck and top notch skills. In other words, it's a low-percentage situation. These generally do not pan out, world class players or not. You can discuss the situation, but regardless of how you see it, it's hardly a black mark against Rashford or a sign of raging egotism on his part. He's really got no very good options, and the outcome is much more about good defending than bad attacking choices.
 
It's been 3 days and still people are going on and on about that 1 incident?
 
roonster09 said:
It's been 3 days and still people are going on and on about that 1 incident?
Click to expand...

Apparently so. He obviously thought he could out pace Fabinho, especially if there was any hesitation with Cavani’s run. Turns out Fabinho is very good.

I can understand the frustration with Rashford at the moment as he does give the ball away a lot, but I still think he’s offering us things that others in the squad can’t. There’s so many posts mentioning his passing, but I must be watching something else, because I think this is one of the areas that’s improved a lot over the last 12 months.
 
Dan_F said:
Apparently so. He obviously thought he could out pace Fabinho, especially if there was any hesitation with Cavani’s run. Turns out Fabinho is very good.

I can understand the frustration with Rashford at the moment as he does give the ball away a lot, but I still think he’s offering us things that others in the squad can’t. There’s so many posts mentioning his passing, but I must be watching something else, because I think this is one of the areas that’s improved a lot over the last 12 months.
Click to expand...

Yeah his passing has improved a lot, after the restart he was playing as playmaker instead of taking on players. Played very good passes from deep.
 
I blame Greenwood.
He put the shits up them last year, so they had to up their games.
Get Mason firing again, and we upgrade 3 players.

Obviously, I don't actually blame Greenwood, but I feel the circumstances are true.
 
I expect this level from rashford, but was really hoping martial could stabilize his performances and have reached his potential after last seasons heroics.

Our solid midfield and defence have been carrying the team. Still, expect greenwood to come good.
 
I think all you can say is if you are discussing utds best attacking players over the years Rashford and Martial would be way down the list. Hopefully they kick on, and especially Martial due to his age and playing time should be approaching his prime years. Instead he looks worse than ever. He's got regular playing time. He's even got his number 9 back which some on here suggested that's why his form had gone bad. I just think both are under elite player level and at the moment seem to have stalled in their development. The fact they are guaranteed to play 9/10 doesn't help them either. Look how Shaw has responded to proper competition for his place. You have to up your game or sink.
 
I almost think it’s a shame now that discussion on football players boils down to finding a YouTube video of the highlights. Spoiler alert but every player has them think of the most untalented donkey that you have ever seen playing in the modern era 110% they will have hundreds and hundreds of highlight packages on YouTube making them look like Maradona. I’m not for a second calling Marcus Rashford a donkey however it does highlight the absurdity of thinking that any criticism of a player is void because you have found a YouTube video of him looking like a king

The most damning thing about that incident was the second he picked up the ball a few people would have doubted that the move would have ended how it did with him either running into trouble or running into a dead-end or running the ball off of the pitch.

The fact that this has almost become his trademark we don’t even notice any more is concerning.

He has nearly 300 senior games for club and country under his belt but he doesn’t show any signs that his decision-making or his teamwork in the situations is improving.

Being selfish against Liverpool at Anfield will get noticed but I think what some of us have been noticing is that these are the kind of things that happened repeatedly in smaller games that aren’t highlighted. This is what the frustration was I think with the scenario at Anfield it wasn’t so much anger at what happened as every player is capable of poor decisions but more the fact that these kind of decisions seem to be ones that he still struggles with and there doesn’t seem to be any progression in that area and they areAt least three or four examples in every game that he plays where you would be forgiven for thinking that he isn’t someone who has played almost 300 times for his club and country but instead a young 18-year-old making his senior debut.

Overlooking what I think are undeniable development issues with his overall game by pointing out that he scored by a deflection against Wolverhampton Wanderers or because you found a YouTube video of him doing a stepover is really quite poor
 
Our front threes form is worrying. Wonder if we should go for a loan signing like Perisic.
 
stw2022 said:
Overlooking what I think are undeniable development issues with his overall game by pointing out that he scored by a deflection against Wolverhampton Wanderers or because you found a YouTube video of him doing a stepover is really quite poor
Click to expand...

You're the one ignoring the clear improvements, both tangible and otherwise, in a 23-year-old's game across nearly 300 senior games for club and country, chap. Could probably do with getting off YouTube to watch some matches yourself.

I was about to hit the post button, then I remembered you're the one who thinks Rashford wouldn't attract interest from any top seven club in any top league in Europe :lol:
 
Martial is really worrying me, just not at the races in general.

Need him to step up.

Rashford we hope learns to pass but it was good to give Cavani a run today, his experience and instincts in the box have been sorely missed.
 
Bojan11 said:
Our front threes form is worrying. Wonder if we should go for a loan signing like Perisic.
Click to expand...
It is worrying, why do we think it’s come about? I’m honestly not sure as the three ended last season so strongly, it’s a real concern.
 
If our front 3 had the form they had post-lockdown, we'd start smashing teams left and right.

Hopefully Rashford/Martial get going again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.