Has political correctness actually gone mad?

[berbatrick]

 

[VorZakone]

America isn't multiculturalism?

 

[Grinner]

Are St. Trinians films still shown on telly? The sexy schoolgirl thing is a bit dodgy nowadays.

 

[VorZakone]

Older article (2019), but was wondering what the Caf thinks of it?

The city of San Francisco is trying to change the public’s perception of criminals by introducing new language to refer to someone who committed a crime.

The Board of Supervisors put the changes in place in July.

So, from now on, according to Fox News, a “convicted felon” will be referred to as a “justice-involved person.”


The San Francisco Chronicle reports that a criminal released from custody will be called a “formerly incarcerated person” or a “returning resident.”

Supervisor Matt Haney told the paper quote, “We don’t want people to be forever labeled for the worst things that they have done. We want them, ultimately to become contributing citizens, and referring to them as felons is like a scarlet letter that they can never get away from.”

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...gRtVgx5wHnFDC8E48NQkkH17lrHZLlxj9SUGZdpAPApdN

 

[edcunited1878]

Older article (2019), but was wondering what the Caf thinks of it?

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...gRtVgx5wHnFDC8E48NQkkH17lrHZLlxj9SUGZdpAPApdN

It's dumb. If you're a convicted felon, you're still going to have that record on you forever however you're categorized. The bigger issue at hand and the larger challenge is if you really want individuals who are 'returning residents' to become contributing, 'law abiding' citizens moving forward, they have to be completely rehabilitated in all their previous ways which got them to being incarcerated in the first place. That would take place in prison and after prison, but we all know because the U.S. is home to a massive for-profit jail system, that's not going to happen.

 

[horsechoker]

"The term "olesexual" is now banned on this site. If you want to use it try Twitter."

But seriously, I've never seen this or maybe I never paid attention to it.

 

[Dante]

"The term "olesexual" is now banned on this site. If you want to use it try Twitter."

But seriously, I've never seen this or maybe I never paid attention to it.

I've searched the whole site for the term and, other than your post, it's only ever been used 3 times.

I presume the ban is because of overuse in the Newbies.

 

[horsechoker]

I've searched the whole site for the term and, other than your post, it's only ever been used 3 times.

I presume the ban is because of overuse in the Newbies.

Well now this even more perculiar.

There are words that are deserved of banning.

 

[Mogget]

What do we think of this?

Do the translators really need to be young, black women?

 

[Halftrack]

What do we think of this?

Do the translators really need to be young, black women?

Translating poetry is a bit of a task, and usually involves reinterpreting the poem in the target language. Nothing wrong with wanting whomever does the reinterpretation to be as similar to the original writer as possible, in terms of background and, in a general sense, their lived experience, but I don't know anything about this specific poem (other than that it was read at Biden's inauguration.)

 

[NinjaFletch]

Translating poetry is a bit of a task, and usually involves reinterpreting the poem in the target language. Nothing wrong with wanting whomever does the reinterpretation to be as similar to the original writer as possible, in terms of background and, in a general sense, their lived experience, but I don't know anything about this specific poem (other than that it was read at Biden's inauguration.)

Unrelated to the specific point, but I had to translate a fair bit of Latin poetry into English during my PhD and feck. THAT. And I was only concerned with the meaning, God knows how you even go about preserving the artistry of it.

 

[Bosws87]

What do we think of this?

Do the translators really need to be young, black women?

No.

 

[The Corinthian]

Translating poetry is a bit of a task, and usually involves reinterpreting the poem in the target language. Nothing wrong with wanting whomever does the reinterpretation to be as similar to the original writer as possible, in terms of background and, in a general sense, their lived experience, but I don't know anything about this specific poem (other than that it was read at Biden's inauguration.)

Unrelated to the specific point, but I had to translate a fair bit of Latin poetry into English during my PhD and feck. THAT. And I was only concerned with the meaning, God knows how you even go about preserving the artistry of it.

Sorry to derail, but reading your posts reminded me of this:

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

https://zirrar.com/reading-rumi-in-the-west-the-burden-of-coleman-barks/

 

[Gehrman]

What do we think of this?

Do the translators really need to be young, black women?

I think it's silly and a profoundly anti-intellectual way of thinking.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Translating poetry is a bit of a task, and usually involves reinterpreting the poem in the target language. Nothing wrong with wanting whomever does the reinterpretation to be as similar to the original writer as possible, in terms of background and, in a general sense, their lived experience, but I don't know anything about this specific poem (other than that it was read at Biden's inauguration.)

Seeing as the vast majority of classical literature was written by white middle class poets/authors I can see a bit of a problem with what you’re arguing here...

 

[The Corinthian]

Seeing as the vast majority of classical literature was written by white middle class poets/authors I can see a bit of a problem with what you’re arguing here...

That's part of the problem as well - why is what we categorise as classical literature only from the West? However, I think we're slowly seeing a cultural shift to non-European/Western classical literature, in schools, academia and wider media.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Seeing as the vast majority of classical literature was written by white middle class poets/authors I can see a bit of a problem with what you’re arguing here...

Sorry to derail, but reading your posts reminded me of this:

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

https://zirrar.com/reading-rumi-in-the-west-the-burden-of-coleman-barks/

There's actually a pretty cool article on translating the Oydessy from its first female translator which touches on these specific points.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017...-emily-wilson-translation-first-woman-english

I think it's very easy to think of translators and translations as steadfastly neutral, but we all come at these issues with our own assumptions and cultural baggage which makes every decision we do (and don't make) one of interpretation.

On the Rumi point specifically (thanks for those links) I'm reminded of how a Victorian translator managed to insert some overt anti-semitism into his translation of William of Newburgh. As a result, medievalists too lazy to go back to the Latin held up poor old William as an example of twelfth century anti-semitism.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Translating poetry is a bit of a task, and usually involves reinterpreting the poem in the target language. Nothing wrong with wanting whomever does the reinterpretation to be as similar to the original writer as possible, in terms of background and, in a general sense, their lived experience, but I don't know anything about this specific poem (other than that it was read at Biden's inauguration.)

This made me think of the case of Ezra Pound translating Chinese poetry. Pound's translations were quite literal and end up sounding like non-rhyming spoken word in English. Yet, when read in the original Chinese, they don't just rhyme word syllables but some (like LI Bai) rhyme the rising and falling intonations as well. So what sounds in Pound's translation like modern spoken word is actually far more lyrical in the original version.

 

[afrocentricity]

Seeing as the vast majority of classical literature was written by white middle class poets/authors I can see a bit of a problem with what you’re arguing here...

That doesn't sound right... Unless you have a narrow definition of poetry.

Feels a bit 'history is written by the victors...'

 

[Gehrman]

That doesn't sound right... Unless you have a narrow definition of poetry.

Feels a bit 'history is written by the victors...'

I think it's more of a factual statement than anything else. Note he said classical literature and not contemporary.

 

[Synco]

This made me think of the case of Ezra Pound translating Chinese poetry. Pound's translations were quite literally and end up sounding like non-rhyming spoken word in English. Yet, when read in the original Chinese, they don't just rhyme word syllables but some (like LI Bai) rhyme the rising and falling intonations as well. So what sounds in Pound's translation like modern spoken word is actually far more lyrical in the original version.

I think that even with the best of efforts in staying true to the original, it's practically impossible to fully translate poetry (literature, humour...). It always has to be some sort of reinterpretation, and it will only really work as intended in the original.

 

[Halftrack]

Unrelated to the specific point, but I had to translate a fair bit of Latin poetry into English during my PhD and feck. THAT. And I was only concerned with the meaning, God knows how you even go about preserving the artistry of it.

When I was learning French, I was tasked with finding a song or poem and translating it into French. After trying for a bit and realising what a bitch of a task it was, I remembered that Rammstein had (for some reason) printed the French translations of a couple of their songs in an album booklet, so I just claimed one of those as my own. So yeah, I can only try and imagine what a task it must be trying to preserve the original meaning of a poem while also trying to keep it an actually good poem.

Sorry to derail, but reading your posts reminded me of this:

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

https://zirrar.com/reading-rumi-in-the-west-the-burden-of-coleman-barks/

These definitely go on my 'to read' list, thanks.

Seeing as the vast majority of classical literature was written by white middle class poets/authors I can see a bit of a problem with what you’re arguing here...

I should add that it'll depend on the type of translation you want, as there are many ways to approach translating poetry. Is it just a literal translation, or do you want to maintain the rhyme? Cadence? The artistry? The message? I'm not saying you have to have someone of the same race or background to do a translation, I'm just saying that there's nothing wrong with wanting that if you believe it'll lend the translation authenticity (particularly if what you want is a translation that has the same meaning and conveys the same message, as that usually entails writing an entirely new poem based on the original.)

And white middle-class people today have very little in common with white middle-class people of centuries ago, so it's not like they'd be any better positioned to do a translation than anyone else.

 

[Grinner]

A Chinese friend of mine was horrified when I described the old TV show Monkey to her because it's based on Journey To the West, but the TV show is Japanese. I suppose it'd be like the French doing Shakespeare.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That doesn't sound right... Unless you have a narrow definition of poetry.

Feels a bit 'history is written by the victors...'

Fair point. I’m talking about English language poetry/literature i.e. stuff that might need a Spanish translation (which is what’s being discussed here)

The reasons behind the English speaking white middle class having the privilege to be able to fanny about, writing plays, poems and novels is a different discussion but that’s what happened. Obviously there were exceptions but that was the reality for the majority of classic English literature.

 

[afrocentricity]

Fair point. I’m talking about English language poetry/literature i.e. stuff that might need a Spanish translation (which is what’s being discussed here)

The reasons behind the English speaking white middle class having the privilege to be able to fanny about, writing plays, poems and novels is a different discussion but that’s what happened. Obviously there were exceptions but that was the reality for the majority of classic English literature.

Not really the point I was trying to make. Considering the original arguement that poetry is best translated by people indigenous to its origin? Or similar in experiences and culture? (I scanned over the post correct me if I'm wrong).

Poetry comes from all over the world, from different cultures and civilisations...

 

[MoskvaRed]

You simply can’t translate poetry (and even prose is not that straightforward). You either do a literal translation that does not keep the rhyme (as Nabokov did with translating Evgeny Onegin into English) or you effectively recreate the original work. In that sense, I don’t find the objections in this case particularly offensive but, by the same means, I doubt a Catalan (of whatever race) can really “translate” the experiences of a black American.

 

[Grinner]

It isn't poetry if it doesn't rhyme.

 

[afrocentricity]

It isn't poetry if it doesn't rhyme.

That does not matter,
important thing is structure.
There you go... haiku.

Edit: I know... Syllables. You get what I was trying to do though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not really the point I was trying to make. Considering the original arguement that poetry is best translated by people indigenous to its origin? Or similar in experiences and culture? (I scanned over the post correct me if I'm wrong).

Poetry comes from all over the world, from different cultures and civilisations...

But that’s the point I’m making. This idea that poetry is best translated by people similar in culture and experience is a terrible idea, when you consider that the bulk of classical English literature was written by the white middle class. Rightly or wrongly, classical English literature dominates academic curricula and we shouldn’t argue that anyone translating it for an overseas audience should also be white and middle class.

 

[afrocentricity]

But that’s the point I’m making. This idea that poetry is best translated by people similar in culture and experience is a terrible idea

I wouldn't even say that personally. It depends on what you're doing. If you as a host specify a preference for an African to read African poetry or a Spanish person to read Spanish poetry... Ok?

It depends on the reasoning...

when you consider that the bulk of classical English literature was written by the white middle class. Rightly or wrongly, classical English literature dominates academic curricula and we shouldn’t argue that anyone translating it for an overseas audience should also be white and middle class.

Anyway, my main point way that there's more to poetry than classical literature of Western poetry. I don't agree that there should be anything, but I'm not against preferences depending on the reasoning.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Fluency in both the original language and the language it's being translated to should be the main driver, imho.

 

[Halftrack]

This idea that poetry is best translated by people similar in culture and experience is a terrible idea,

That wasn't what I argued, though? I said that there's nothing wrong with wanting a poem translated by someone with a similar cultural background to that of the original poet, not that it has to be.

If it's a poem by a black person that takes on the racism they experience, then surely there's nothing wrong with preferring it to be translated by someone who can relate to that?

 

[RedTiger]

But that’s the point I’m making. This idea that poetry is best translated by people similar in culture and experience is a terrible idea, when you consider that the bulk of classical English literature was written by the white middle class. Rightly or wrongly, classical English literature dominates academic curricula and we shouldn’t argue that anyone translating it for an overseas audience should also be white and middle class.

Sometimes people have inherent bias within their worldview. A good example would be the Poet Rumi whose poems are influenced by esoteric Islam yet all the western translations since the 1920s disregard all the Islamic influenced prose and present it as solely about human love.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So here’s another one to discuss. I think this guy has behaved pretty badly. It’s actually kind of farcical that someone could end up with the job he has, at that specific university, and come out with stuff like this:

So why don’t I think it was problematic to use the word when I did. Well, because context matters and I was arguing for taking punitive action. You cannot impute maligned intention without understanding context. Do I believe that only blacks can verbalise the word. No, I don’t.

 

[Synco]

On the original topic:

If someone is qualified for a translation job (linguistic and artistic skills, knowledge of the subject and its background), I don't think personal background is important as such. The ability to empathise can go very far.

But sometimes background may still matter. For example, if people of colour and/or women are notably underrepresented in the professional literary scene of a country, I'd find it an appropriate statement to hand the translation job for this particular poem to someone of that demographic.

I also know that such a decision will always remain somewhat unsatisfactory, it never fully adds up. But that's because the general situation that makes such considerations necessary is not good, and no limited solution can fix that.

 

[Wibble]

So here’s another one to discuss. I think this guy has behaved pretty badly. It’s actually kind of farcical that someone could end up with the job he has, at that specific university, and come out with stuff like this:

I agree he handled it badly. However, was there the argument that white people can't even say the word under any circumstance? Not even when discussing the use of the word? Or was I misunderstanding?

 

[Bosws87]

More an issue with critical thinking then political correctness sort of cross over in a grey area for me.

A huge portion of people seem to have lost the ability to consider both sides of an issue. Politics is a prime example we no longer consider the pro's and con's of certain ideas its just one or the other.

Liberals are now so left leaning and anti right and vice versa, when was the last time you heard someone say i don't like this policy but i can appreciate this is a great idea by the opposite party.

For me this attitude and way of thinking is one of the biggest problems in modern society and leads to many other issues.

 

[Bobski]

More an issue with critical thinking then political correctness sort of cross over in a grey area for me.

A huge portion of people seem to have lost the ability to consider both sides of an issue. Politics is a prime example we no longer consider the pro's and con's of certain ideas its just one or the other.

Liberals are now so left leaning and anti right and vice versa, when was the last time you heard someone say i don't like this policy but i can appreciate this is a great idea by the opposite party.

For me this attitude and way of thinking is one of the biggest problems in modern society and leads to many other issues.

Both Sides is now, ridiculously, close to an internet meme.

 

[VorZakone]

More an issue with critical thinking then political correctness sort of cross over in a grey area for me.

A huge portion of people seem to have lost the ability to consider both sides of an issue. Politics is a prime example we no longer consider the pro's and con's of certain ideas its just one or the other.

Liberals are now so left leaning and anti right and vice versa, when was the last time you heard someone say i don't like this policy but i can appreciate this is a great idea by the opposite party.

For me this attitude and way of thinking is one of the biggest problems in modern society and leads to many other issues.

If you don't like a policy what are the odds you'd think it's great though? If you think it's great, why would you not like it?

 

[The Corinthian]

More an issue with critical thinking then political correctness sort of cross over in a grey area for me.

A huge portion of people seem to have lost the ability to consider both sides of an issue. Politics is a prime example we no longer consider the pro's and con's of certain ideas its just one or the other.

Liberals are now so left leaning and anti right and vice versa, when was the last time you heard someone say i don't like this policy but i can appreciate this is a great idea by the opposite party.

For me this attitude and way of thinking is one of the biggest problems in modern society and leads to many other issues.

I think there's some truth in what you're saying. Something I've noticed in the last 5-8 years is the absence of a middle ground, everything is polarised, and everything is either extreme left of right. I think it's part and parcel with the rise of social media in some respects.