I do think people are filled with prejudices. Don’t think that’s limited to white people though. The prejudices against white people just aren’t as harmful or painful because of the historic power structure.
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
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I do think people are filled with prejudices. Don’t think that’s limited to white people though. The prejudices against white people just aren’t as harmful or painful because of the historic power structure.
Yep definitely, the prejudices we don't even realise we have. Some of those are probably more based on cultural differences rather than race per se, but that boundary is definitely blurred.
I always find this response funny. Rather than actually engage with the claim people will just decry the wording. Ok yes she said ‘all’ but what about the other part? And it’s pretty much understood that when someone says ‘all’ or they use generalised terms like ‘men are dangerous’, they don’t necessarily mean ‘all’ and ‘every’. But definitely enough for it to be an issue.
Yes language is important and it should be precise, but it isn’t anymore. So the arguments against specific wording isn’t really valid anymore. Everyone exaggerates for effect. (Of course by that I mean pretty much everyone).
I'm sorry i'm not into Meghan Markle's strategists extrapolating from her own experience that all white people have internalized racism and unconscious bias. You'd have to omniscient to make that claim.
Don't be surprised if people call BS on exaggerations though. And rightly so IMO.
Quite a convenient claim for all these unconscious bias trainers though, when they're looking to sell their seminars, workshops and courses.
Such a lucrative market created almost out of thin air. Or maybe hot air.
Diversity officers are making huge bucks from this and Kendhi & Robin D''angelo are making an absolute fortune from it whilst they are unwilling to show for a debate with intellectuals who think their hypothesis and claims don't hold up.
To be fair it's probably difficult for her to even leave the house when she's in the midst of a constant white guilt orgasm.
Again, you don't agree with how she came to the point, BUT what about the actual point? I for one agree with her quite strongly. We've now gotten to a point where we know that racism isn't just the belief of superiority or vitriolic hate, but something more subtle and pervasive. It took her to experience something to come to a conclusion that then seemed obvious to her. Some people come to understanding through personal experience.
Yes but reacting to exaggerations seems to be the calling card of people who don’t want to engage with the argument. ‘Not all men’ being the best example of this. It’s either on the speaker to speak with absolute precision, which would slow down all discussion and sometimes lessen the impact of an argument, or on the listener to not be quite so pedantic and engage with the content of the argument rather than the language used.
Takes a staggering lack of self awareness to not realise that unconscious bias is a real thing.
I completely disagree with her point. That's my point. I even took the Harvard implicit bias test on race out of curiosity and was shocked about how bad it was. It's not hard for her to say "I found out I had internalized racism and unconcsious bias and I believe some white people may have too". But that's not what she said.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/Study?tid=-1
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Whether it's real or not isn't the issue. Obviously we all have biases, conscious and unconscious, they are a necessary part of our survival as a species. But the context that unconscious bias is presented today is a bad joke, for instance every example you'll ever see given in relation to it is always an example of conscious bias, not unconscious.
It's unfalsifiable and unquantifiable, and all the "training" courses on it revolve completely around the old debunked implicit bias test, that any scientist immediately spots huge problems with. And every study into the effectiveness of unconscious bias training shows they don't work. They exist to make money, nothing more. And corporations absolutely love them because they are the easiest of all cop outs.
Shocked at how bad the test was or how badly you performed? The thing is maybe you don’t have a racist bone in your body, so it seems that you’re using your personal experience to decide on quite grand ideas.
Excatly it's the corporations way of signalling that we are comitted to "anti-racism" to signal their virtue which is easier than increasing wages and or paying more in taxes, or having other dodgy practices or links to labour in foreign countries that's almost slave labour.
I performed very well and I did it as fast as possible, but reason it's so shockingly bad is because for me it didn't tell me anything about my "unscious" at all. You would have to be an idiot to think this test tells something about you that you don't know already.
I mean I just took it and I'd agree it doesn't really seem to say much. I'd also say I was making the same consistent amount of mistakes regardless of what was being show on screen. However I don't know why the efficacy of Havard's unconscious bias test is relevant to the idea that the majority of the white population has at some level internalised racism and harbours certain biases.
If you want to go around thinking about whether your white friends have internalized racism that's fine. I'm not going to spend time dwelling on it. On the subject of biases, most people are biased on variaty of issues. It's called preference. The most obvious one being beauty and physical attractiveness .
Because that test is what spawned unconscious bias as a theory and what propelled that theory into the fields of race and gender studies. And to this day it's what unconscious bias training revolves around. You will not find a course or seminar on the subject that doesn't introduce that test, invite you to take it to confirm your own biases, and use it as self justification for the courses' existence. Even though, years after introducing it, the tests' own creators owned up to it being completely useless at doing what they presented it for i.e. giving you an indication of your implicit (unconscious) biases.
It's money-spinning hokum on homeopathy levels to be honest.
It's most definitely real but the examples that are mentioned in the Mail article are... weird, to say the least.
I mean... what? Is she suggesting that black people are loud? Because that IS racist, unlike preferring your husband not to yell at you.
Or maybe I could talk about the countless people of colour who say the experience it day to day and can see when someone has changed their approach, their tone of voice, has stiffened up etc. Or how it affects employment and policing. If you want to go around thinking everything is all good then that's your prerogative.
I never said there isnt racism. I'm just not going to get up in the morning and make it my thing to dwell on people's internalized racism or unconsciouss bias. I move in social circles with very nice people, I don't believe my white friends are racist in anyway and all my non-white friends are doing extremely well, they are not subjected to racism and have told me so, and are all doing far better than I am in all areas of life. If there is any policy change that could be made to for instance be made so that people of color are not omitted from jobs they are qualified for due to racial discrimination I'm all for it.
Honestly this is quite confusing. Racism occurs on the whole because of internalised racism. Most occurrences of racism aren’t the classic example but are more subtle because of societal norms and upbringing. Examples such as asking where someone is ‘really’ from, or touching hair or even proclaiming colour blindness. Actions taken by someone who has no inkling what they are doing is wrong.
I’m not saying any of your friends are racist but they have probably said or done something slightly suspect once or twice, purely because they knew no better. You probably have as well. It doesn’t mean you’re not perfectly nice. You probably are, but people make mistakes based on ignorance that is developed through their upbringing. You’ve probably said something you didn’t think was problematic purely because you weren’t aware. And maybe you and they haven’t made any of those errors in recent years because you’ve learnt more about certain issues. You could argue that you have shed an internalised racism that was once there.
I’m having to make certain assumptions on where you are based, but the majority of the western world is built on racist structures so it’s only natural that there is a latent base of racism that pervades throughout society. There’s a reason films like Get Out were made, deemed important and are critically lauded by black academics and activists.
You say you aren’t going to dwell on it, but why does that have any bearing on whether it exists or not? Or whether you are guilty of it or not. But again you’re dismissing the idea that internalised racism exists purely because of your own experiences. Which is slightly similar to someone saying it does exist because of their own experiences.
I'm completely saturated with everything being about race all the time from 2020 to 2021 where we have been stuck inside and all the news and topics have either been about coronavirus or race. There are now millions of people who want to dismantle even the most subtle possible racism everywhere they see or think they see it, I will let them get on with their life mission. My opinon is racism exists. It can never be completely eridicated. People of any colour can be racist, not just white people. I think time is best spent for people who are very passionate about combating racism to do it where it is apparent, tangible, visible and have the biggest consequenses. Anyway your post is full of assumptions about people you don't know. Like saying that I've shed internalized racism that was once there. Maybe I didn't have internazlied racism in the first place. Stop projecting mate.
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Oh sorry that race is being spoken about more, must be very annoying for you. But it seems like your attempts to let them get on with their mission is by diminishing the importance of smaller instances of racism. Surely if you were ‘saturated’ and wanted to let people get on with it you wouldn’t be verbalising your disagreement.
Well I managed to get into the thread, so I might as well voice my opinon. Anyway I would add, if people have friends or co-workers who are acting racist or making micro-agressions of course I think it's fine to make them aware of it.
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@Shamana @macheda14
I don't know about you but I am against ethnic statistics.
In the UK, mainstream media like BBC are happy to say some things like "BAME ( meaningless concept btw) are more likely to die from Covid" or the "the BAME community does not want to get vaccinated" based on so-called studies that does not make sense from a conceptual standpoint.
The mainstream media can also play an unhealthy role, not only social media
I don't know about you but I am against ethnic statistics.
In the UK, mainstream media like BBC are happy to say some things like "BAME ( meaningless concept btw) are more likely to die from Covid" or the "the BAME community does not want to get vaccinated" based on so-called studies that does not make sense from a conceptual standpoint.
The mainstream media can also play an unhealthy role, not only social media
This thread is a graveyard of dumbass's careers.
'I will never go to a Serena Williams level, but I'm comfortable at Halle Berry': Veteran radio DJ is fired for using black celebrities to describe how he likes his TOAST
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9404305/amp/DJ-fired-comparing-toast-Black-womens-skin-tones.html
'I will never go to a Serena Williams level, but I'm comfortable at Halle Berry': Veteran radio DJ is fired for using black celebrities to describe how he likes his TOAST
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9404305/amp/DJ-fired-comparing-toast-Black-womens-skin-tones.html
Buffalo's gonna Buffalo.
The mini market is such an odd little reference point in the uk. NZ too.
Immigrants play moneyball, find an economic avenue that pays well, has a low enough barrier to entry, generally gets bundled with accomodation, can have a family wrapped around it, and sees ownership of output.
Indigenous folks see this kind of stuff as ‘Beneath them’. Vilify those that get ahead.
Not really a comment on Apu. But related at least.
The worst part of it all is that everyone knows that ‘class’ and your fcuking postcode have a higher impact on Covid outcomes that absolute Melanin levels.
The acceptance of BAME is awful. Just wrapping up Black, Asian and EVERYONE THATS NOT WHITE.... Insane.
I truly get that. I’m not going to fight science. But a black billionaire in LA will experience better outcomes than a white supermarket worker in Tower Hamlets.
BAME is effectively ‘Not white’ and its existence is reductive at so many turns. It effectively throws all non white data together. It’s a really weird point of acceptance that doesn’t help.
I can tolerate BAME, 'the BAME community' etc. It's silly - like most of these collective terms - but largely inoffensive.
BIPOC is the one that gets me. I can't believe it's actually gaining traction. For once the right's 'oppression olympics' meme-phrase is actually fitting here. The term is quite literally "OK, I guess Asians and Hispanics sort of count...but let's remember who the real POC are." Such a weirdly pernicious term.
I agree with that
It’s all a madness. My parents genuinely read those acronyms as ‘Other people’ or ‘Not like us’. They’re good people. Open and tolerant. Their Welsh, Italian and Scottish neighbours are ‘In’. Their Korean and Black British neighbours are in another pot. It’s so weird.
One third of the country is over 50. Allowing them to other everyone else is not going to help.
My company's course on diversity in the workplace and unconscious bias did not mention Harvard's test once, so your hypothesis is "debunked".
And of course, physical attractiveness is one unconscious bias most people hold. Doesn't invalidate that race is another. Plenty of other research from social psych demonstrates that.
Yes good observation. Years ago the British described themselves as a nation of shopkeepers but everyone used to grumble about shops closing at 5, early closing on Thursdays, nothing open on a Sunday. Some people came in and sorted that out, did well at it, everyone is happy but then the moaning starts. Being able to go to the curry house after closing time to get more beers and great food was revolutionary too. Before that it was chips if you rushed there before closing.