Prophet Muhammad cartoon sparks Batley Grammar School protest

Barnslig said:
Jesus, caricature has been around for ages, and no religious group or other groups of people have had any issues with it until now. It's not a childish tit for tat.

And also, drawing cartoons and drawing this reaction from these extremists might get people to realize how barbaric and insane they are acting around the world, and start to put pressure back on them to be decent human beings?
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The right to protest is barbaric?
 
Barnslig said:
No.
And no.

No one said that? However there can be no denying there's an ongoing theme here with Muslims. Personally I am of the belief that religion should be a personal thing, but should not affect public discourse and/or law making. If you want to be religious, go for it, but you being religious should not limit my freedoms in any way.
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and who decides public discourse? Who decides what action is religious and what isn't?
 
Barnslig said:
Wow, okay, if that's what you want to take from this there's no point continuing is there
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Because that fact is probably 90% of the Islamic world doesn't care more than to just utter "cnuts" or not befriend folks who would share such cartoons. 9.999% protest. 0.00001% probably resort to violence (really, that's not an exaggeration if you add up all terrorist attacks as a percentage of Muslims in the world), and here you are saying they should adjust their "barbaric ways" ?

Typical xenophobia. Not surprised by your location again.
 
Barnslig said:
No.
And no.

No one said that? However there can be no denying there's an ongoing theme here with Muslims. Personally I am of the belief that religion should be a personal thing, but should not affect public discourse and/or law making. If you want to be religious, go for it, but you being religious should not limit my freedoms in any way.
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Like Christians trying to make abortion illegal? Or to stop gay people being able to get married?
 
Olly Gunnar Solskjær said:
Like Christians trying to make abortion illegal? Or to stop gay people being able to get married?
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There can be arguments made by both sides on those topics, I just don't feel like justifying either position with "because God said so" is a valid argument, ever.
 
shamans said:
Because that fact is probably 90% of the Islamic world doesn't care more than to just utter "cnuts" or not befriend folks who would share such cartoons. 9.999% protest. 0.00001% probably resort to violence (really, that's not an exaggeration if you add up all terrorist attacks as a percentage of Muslims in the world), and here you are saying they should adjust their "barbaric ways" ?

Typical xenophobia. Not surprised by your location again.
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So countries like Saudi-Arabia, Qatar, UAE are all fine and dandy and are not currently partaking in "barbaric ways"? Human rights violations? Prosecution and threats to homosexuals? Great stats there mate, really made your point stick.

I didn't say anyone should adjust their ways, I was saying that by these extremists raging at a cartoon, people might go "oh feck, this isn't great" and maybe realize it's coming from a way larger issue of aggression than just a cartoon.

EDIT: Are you being racists towards Australians? That's not very liberal of you mate, also I am not Australian.
 
shamans said:
I didn't realize discussing things not in black and white would hurt your brain cells. My bad.
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I mean it's pretty self explanatory what's religious and what's not, no? Also who dictates public discorse? At the moment, people that are offended by every little fecking thing and keep screaming and acting like victims over stuff that isn't victimizing anyone. Removing peoples freedom of speech because they are offended.

"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fecking what."
 
Barnslig said:
No.
And no.

No one said that? However there can be no denying there's an ongoing theme here with Muslims. Personally I am of the belief that religion should be a personal thing, but should not affect public discourse and/or law making. If you want to be religious, go for it, but you being religious should not limit my freedoms in any way.
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What's the "ongoing theme with Muslims"?

You aren't free to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre, just like you shouldn't be free to shout "terrorist" at a Muslim.
 
Dante said:
What's the "ongoing theme with Muslims"?

You aren't free to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre, just like you shouldn't be free to shout "terrorist" at a Muslim.
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The theme at the moment? ISIS, War, Humanitarian Crisis, Terror, Violence.

But you are free to draw a cartoon of a fictional character.
 
Barnslig said:
But you are free to draw a cartoon of a fictional character.
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If you want to think that Muhammed was fictional or that the earth is flat, fine. You're free to believe whatever you want as long as you don't impinge on the freedom of others. The issue comes when your views incite negative stereotypes or an already oppressed minority.
 
Dante said:
If you want to think that Muhammed was fictional or that the earth is flat, fine. You're free to believe whatever you want as long as you don't impinge on the freedom of others. The issue comes when your views incite negative stereotypes or an already oppressed minority.
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I don't appreciate you belittling me by implying I believe the Earth is flat because I stated Muhammad is a fictional religious character. If there is any group of people currently impinging on other group of people's freedoms, it's islam.
 
Barnslig said:
I don't appreciate you belittling me by implying I believe the Earth is flat because I stated Muhammad is a fictional religious character. If there is any group of people currently impinging on other group of people's freedoms, it's islam.
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Flat earth is the most cogent argument you've made in this thread.

You said Muhammad is a fictional character. Adding the word "religion" after the fact doesn't the original post I was replying to.
Barnslig said:
But you are free to draw a cartoon of a fictional character.
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That's patently untrue. He was a military general who conducted campaigns which created an empire and fought against others. The proof is evident in its geopolitical effects to this day.
 
Barnslig said:
I mean it's pretty self explanatory what's religious and what's not, no? Also who dictates public discorse? At the moment, people that are offended by every little fecking thing and keep screaming and acting like victims over stuff that isn't victimizing anyone. Removing peoples freedom of speech because they are offended.

"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fecking what."
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It's called living in a positive multi cultural society. That's why "at the moment" this is happening. Places that were homogeneous are less so now. Why is this such a problem to you?
 
shamans said:
It's called living in a positive multi cultural society. That's why "at the moment" this is happening. Places that were homogeneous are less so now. Why is this such a problem to you?
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I've lived in this "positive multicultural society" since I was born, and it's not very positive I can tell you that.
 
Barnslig said:
So countries like Saudi-Arabia, Qatar, UAE are all fine and dandy and are not currently partaking in "barbaric ways"? Human rights violations? Prosecution and threats to homosexuals? Great stats there mate, really made your point stick.

I didn't say anyone should adjust their ways, I was saying that by these extremists raging at a cartoon, people might go "oh feck, this isn't great" and maybe realize it's coming from a way larger issue of aggression than just a cartoon.

EDIT: Are you being racists towards Australians? That's not very liberal of you mate, also I am not Australian.
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I am not from either of those states. Neither of those states have reacted to this incident. The way any of those states are has nothing to do with this. These cartoons only marginalize local muslim minorities, rather than integrating them. It has nothing to do with the rest so again, who was your "barbaric ways" post directed to?

I'm not being racist towards Australians. I'm assuming you're Norwegian and someone on another thread asked me where I get this whole Scandinavians are bigoted idea.
 
Olly Gunnar Solskjær said:
Like Christians trying to make abortion illegal? Or to stop gay people being able to get married?
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And that's bad behavior from Christians. Just like certain Muslims being against transgenders and gays is also bad behavior but then it's quickly pointed out that you're xenophobic.

It's like you aren't allowed to mention the negative elements within Muslim communities without being labeled xenophobic. Am I wrong in having that impression? What do you yourself think of the anti-LBGT sentiment among some Muslims?
 
Barnslig said:
I've lived in this "positive multicultural society" since I was born, and it's not very positive I can tell you that.
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Maybe not if everyone thinks like you along the lines of "give me a break quit being offended". Some of can actually make friends and have a good time without having to offend anyone. It's not that hard. It makes a society better.
 
Dante said:
Flat earth is the most cogent argument you've made in this thread.

You said Muhammad is a fictional character. Adding the word "religion" after the fact doesn't the original post I was replying to.

That's patently untrue. He was a military general who conducted campaigns which created an empire and fought against others. The proof is evident in its geopolitical effects to this day.
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I didn't realise putting words in peoples mouths is a way of discussing. I never brought up flat earth, you did.
Oh well, so Muhammad was a real person, makes it even more mind boggling how people can lose their shit over a caricature of a real person.
 
shamans said:
Maybe not if everyone thinks like you along the lines of "give me a break quit being offended". Some of can actually make friends and have a good time without having to offend anyone. It's not that hard. It makes a society better.
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I have many friends. All I am saying is that being offended isn't a valid excuse for anything. If you're being offended by something, leave, go do something else, read a book, watch a movie, listen to music, don't threaten to physically harm people.
 
VorZakone said:
And that's bad behavior from Christians. Just like certain Muslims being against transgenders and gays is also bad behavior but then it's quickly pointed out that you're xenophobic.

It's like you aren't allowed to mention the negative elements within Muslim communities without being labeled xenophobic. Am I wrong in having that impression? What do you yourself think of the anti-LBGT sentiment among some Muslims?
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EXACTLY.

Christians being against homosexuality? Worst people in the world
Muslims being against homosexuality? It's just their way of being

Interested to see how the people sympathising with Islam justify their treatment of members of the LGBT-community.
 
VorZakone said:
And that's bad behavior from Christians. Just like certain Muslims being against transgenders and gays is also bad behavior but then it's quickly pointed out that you're xenophobic.

It's like you aren't allowed to mention the negative elements within Muslim communities without being labeled xenophobic. Am I wrong in having that impression? What do you yourself think of the anti-LBGT sentiment among some Muslims?
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Yes you are wrong because I literally have not heard anyone ever say you are xenophobic if you talk about muslims against LGBT. Governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia in particular are widely criticized. There are university courses that criticize Islam. Feel free.

The context matters and this is a totally different one. You have so called liberals here defending blatant provocation with "hey education is education"
 
Barnslig said:
I have many friends. All I am saying is that being offended isn't a valid excuse for anything. If you're being offended by something, leave, go do something else, read a book, watch a movie, listen to music, don't threaten to physically harm people.
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Maybe you're the one who needs to read a book. In a healthy society you have the right to be offended and the right to vocalize it. If I see folks making short people jokes and my kids are small I will fight against it so they don't have to grow in a world where that is an issue and most sane people would accept.

Same as how TV was rampant with Asian and gay jokes years ago and less so now. Just because you are bitter doesn't mean we all suddenly have to not care about being offended.


Barnslig said:
EXACTLY.

Christians being against abortion? Idiots.
Muslims beheading infidels? Oh well, it's just their way of being.
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No one has said this quit being so insecure about Islam and Muslims.
 
shamans said:
Yes you are wrong because I literally have not heard anyone ever say you are xenophobic if you talk about muslims against LGBT. Governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia in particular are widely criticized. There are university courses that criticize Islam. Feel free.

The context matters and this is a totally different one. You have so called liberals here defending blatant provocation with "hey education is education"
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Well you just called me a xenophobe above for discussing the negative sides of Islam.
 
shamans said:
Maybe you're the one who needs to read a book. In a healthy society you have the right to be offended and the right to vocalize it. If I see folks making short people jokes and my kids are small I will fight against it so they don't have to grow in a world where that is an issue and most sane people would accept.

Same as how TV was rampant with Asian and gay jokes years ago and less so now. Just because you are bitter doesn't mean we all suddenly have to not care about being offended.




No one has said this quit being so insecure about Islam and Muslims.
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You can be as offended as you want at anything in the world, it doesn't give you certain rights or protection against people voicing their opinions on short people regardless. I am not bitter, I am quite enjoying this to be honest.
I am not insecure about Islam and/or Muslims either, again having been raised in Norway I have been a minority in classrooms, I have been racially abused and physically abused. I an pretty secure about my feelings towards Islam (the religion, not the people, you seem like the kind of person that needs this clarification in paranthesis)
 
VorZakone said:
And that's bad behavior from Christians. Just like certain Muslims being against transgenders and gays is also bad behavior but then it's quickly pointed out that you're xenophobic.

It's like you aren't allowed to mention the negative elements within Muslim communities without being labeled xenophobic. Am I wrong in having that impression? What do you yourself think of the anti-LBGT sentiment among some Muslims?
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I'm obviously not supportive of it, I wouldn't want the Saudi Arabian state to buy United because of the things they do.

But just like how I don't lump Penna or my religious next door neighbours in with those Christians who send death threats to Bill Nye for mocking their religion, or the racists who send death threats to black actors playing Jesus, or those that bomb abortion clinics, I don't lump all Muslims into one group and generalise and hold them all responsible for it.
 
Barnslig said:
Well you just called me a xenophobe above for discussing the negative sides of Islam.
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Your insecurity creeping in again. Was it for that or for you saying something along the lines of these cartoons will ultimately be a way for them to change their "barbaric ways". I saw no mention of LGBT+ hate or anything. Seemed like a very general statement to me.
 
Barnslig said:
I have many friends. All I am saying is that being offended isn't a valid excuse for anything. If you're being offended by something, leave, go do something else, read a book, watch a movie, listen to music, don't threaten to physically harm people.
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But the cartoon is a meme which incites a stereotype that does in fact harm people. What you're failing to understand is that free speech is only free until it incites physical harm on others.

In your previous post, you mentioned an "ongoing theme with Muslims". That kind of base reasoning is proof of how easy it is for bigots to fall for the rhetoric illustrated in the cartoon. Once a prejudice is created, you shouldn't encourage its propogation.

If you don't believe that all Muslims are terrorists, why support a cartoon which conveys that same message? Especially when there are so many cases of verbal and physical abuse in the UK incited by this exact prejudice.
 
Barnslig said:
You can be as offended as you want at anything in the world, it doesn't give you certain rights or protection against people voicing their opinions on short people regardless. I am not bitter, I am quite enjoying this to be honest.
I am not insecure about Islam and/or Muslims either, again having been raised in Norway I have been a minority in classrooms, I have been racially abused and physically abused. I an pretty secure about my feelings towards Islam (the religion, not the people, you seem like the kind of person that needs this clarification in paranthesis)
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The fact you think people should not be offended doesn't tell me you enjoy any of this. It's a very odd and bitter stance. To actively not want people to get offended and seeing it as a negative of society vs how "it used to be".

And yes it does give me certain rights or protections. In your world, how it "used to be", it was commonplace to make fun of Jews as being miser at work, flirt with women if they dressed 'provocatively', bully employees for being overweight or short and make fun of homosexuals. People spoke up and you can't get away with any of that now. So yes, you do get protection.
 
Quality control
shamans said:
I am not from either of those states. Neither of those states have reacted to this incident. The way any of those states are has nothing to do with this. These cartoons only marginalize local muslim minorities, rather than integrating them. It has nothing to do with the rest so again, who was your "barbaric ways" post directed to?

I'm not being racist towards Australians. I'm assuming you're Norwegian and someone on another thread asked me where I get this whole Scandinavians are bigoted idea.
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I'm just gonna throw this out here, maybe we're starting to have bigoted tendencies because we've lived in this so-called "positive multi cultural society" all our lives, and it's really not very positive at all.
 
Dante said:
But the cartoon is a meme which incites a stereotype that does in fact harm people. What you're failing to understand is that free speech is only free until it incites physical harm on others.

In your previous post, you mentioned an "ongoing theme with Muslims". That kind of base reasoning is proof of how easy it is for bigots to fall for the rhetoric illustrated in the cartoon. Once a prejudice is created, you shouldn't encourage its propogation.

If you don't believe that all Muslims are terrorists, why support a cartoon which conveys that same message? Especially when there are so many cases of verbal and physical abuse in the UK incited by this exact prejudice.
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You worded it very well and I'm gonna use this so @Carolina Red sees it as well since he compared it to depictions in historical "Persian art"
 
Barnslig said:
I'm just gonna throw this out here, maybe we're starting to have bigoted tendencies because we've lived in this so-called "positive multi cultural society" all our lives, and it's really not very positive at all.
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There's nothing wrong with multiculturalism. The problem is turning one culture against another with petty backbiting and bigotry. Something you're doing in this thread.
 
Barnslig said:
I'm just gonna throw this out here, maybe we're starting to have bigoted tendencies because we've lived in this so-called "positive multi cultural society" all our lives, and it's really not very positive at all.
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starting?
 
Barnslig said:
I'm just gonna throw this out here, maybe we're starting to have bigoted tendencies because we've lived in this so-called "positive multi cultural society" all our lives, and it's really not very positive at all.
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You just told me you grew up in Norway and talked about "how it used to be". Norway is hardly the most multicultural society out there, especially back in the day. Seems to me like you're just annoyed at different ethnicities mingling.

I guess that is what you just said. Mutli cultural society is not very positive for you. Why am I wrong in calling you xenophobic then?
 
Dante said:
There's nothing wrong with multiculturalism. The problem is turning one culture against another with petty backbiting and bigotry. Something you're doing in this thread.
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Depends on what cultures are involved.
 
Dante said:
But the cartoon is a meme which incites a stereotype that does in fact harm people. What you're failing to understand is that free speech is only free until it incites physical harm on others.

In your previous post, you mentioned an "ongoing theme with Muslims". That kind of base reasoning is proof of how easy it is for bigots to fall for the rhetoric illustrated in the cartoon. Once a prejudice is created, you shouldn't encourage its propogation.

If you don't believe that all Muslims are terrorists, why support a cartoon which conveys that same message? Especially when there are so many cases of verbal and physical abuse in the UK incited by this exact prejudice.
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So you're saying the themes I mentioned in a follow up post is not relevant? War, terror, humanitarian crisis, ISIS? I don't believe all Muslims are terrorists, and if any of you are willing to show me the cartoon displayed by the teacher, I'd be happy to see it, I just don't see how a caricature of a (very real, military man) person is the same as saying "all muslim are terrorists"? Again, growing up in Norway as a ethnic Norwegian, I have for most of my life been a minority in classrooms. I have been racially and physically abused by Muslims for years, with the threat of being labelled "racist" if you ever retaliate.

shamans said:
The fact you think people should not be offended doesn't tell me you enjoy any of this. It's a very odd and bitter stance. To actively not want people to get offended and seeing it as a negative of society vs how "it used to be".

And yes it does give me certain rights or protections. In your world, how it "used to be", it was commonplace to make fun of Jews as being miser at work, flirt with women if they dressed 'provocatively', bully employees for being overweight or short and make fun of homosexuals. People spoke up and you can't get away with any of that now. So yes, you do get protection.
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Again, misquoting me. When did I say no one should be offended? I explicitly said you can be as offended as you want, at anything, however that doesn't give you any special rights or the ability to demand that I limit my freedoms cause of it.

Dante said:
There's nothing wrong with multiculturalism. The problem is turning one culture against another with petty backbiting and bigotry. Something you're doing in this thread.
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There is a feckload wrong with multiculturalism, the fact that you say there is nothing wrong with it makes me believe you've lived a very sheltered life removed from the daily challenges of many.

shamans said:
You just told me you grew up in Norway and talked about "how it used to be". Norway is hardly the most multicultural society out there, especially back in the day. Seems to me like you're just annoyed at different ethnicities mingling.

I guess that is what you just said. Mutli cultural society is not very positive for you. Why am I wrong in calling you xenophobic then?
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I'll have you know I've been a minority in most of my classrooms growing up. Did you just try and tell me what my lived experiences are? Do you mind me asking where you are from? Norway is in fact a very multicultural, socialist country that has had mass immigration since the Kosovo/Albania wars back in the 90s (Possibly even further back, to post WWII, but I have limited knowledge of this so I will not make a claim). Norwegians in Norway is projected to be a minority in a few decades.
 
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