Bottas on the right track is competitive with Lewis in quali, but his race pace is shocking. He wouldn't have been WC because there are so many other more hungry and quicker drivers.
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Agreed. I plucked Perez as an example. I actually don't think Bottas is even in his level.
Hamilton is just so much better than everyone else. He’s a stone cold killer. Ice in his veins. Mature, calm, precise, and ruthlessly consistent. You put him in the Red Bull car and I’d bet my bottom dollar he’d win the WC.
Hilarious how people on here still buy into the Merc underdog rhetoric
The Red Bull car has been quicker all season, albeit by fine margins. Their car is built for their lead driver to get the max out of it (pun intended). Merc build a fast car for both drivers.
Difference is that Merc have the best driver on the grid, period.
I don't know if I agree with that, they weren't faster yesterday and they definitely weren't last week either so it's 2/4 races at best.
Sorry mate but that’s absolute bollocks.
Mercedes threw everything behind Lewis the moment Rosberg packed his bags. They, like Reubens and Michael, have zero interest in Bottas winning except to ensure they win the constructors.
They may have the best driver on the grid in the best car, but there are a number of drivers that would produce the goods in that Mercedes.
I don’t think there are any other drivers who would produce the goods in the consistent way Hamilton has. He makes it look easy. He never caves under pressure. The amount of times he’s brought the car home for a win or podium finish with stripped tires is insane. He just does it race after race after race, season after season. He’s a phenomenon. There are lots of drivers who could do it for a race, or even a season, but to do it year after year as he has, is pretty much unrivalled.
His brilliance gets regularly dismissed as having the best car, which really does his momentous achievements a disservice. It’s borderline disrespectful, and you wonder if a white driver would have to face the same level of scrutiny and doubt. In an age where media focus on driver behaviour is relentless, I have always appreciated Hamilton’s classy persona and stand for equality. It contrasts markedly to Verstappen, who despite being a great driver, is already on record calling fellow drivers “p*ssy”, “ret*rd” and “Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime*l”. But likely because of his ethnicity, he gets a pass.
As for the car, the Red Bull is set up for Verstappen. All their second drivers have to adjust to his set up, and adjust their driving style. Perez said as much recently. They are all in on Max as is obvious in all the behind the scenes footage, as well as comments directly from Horner. Mercedes just produce the best car they can, regardless of the driver, and It’s only because of Hamilton’s individual brilliance that he’s always ahead of Bottas, not the set up of the car. In fact we’ve seen many times Bottas grabbing poles because he can be lightening quick over a single lap and isn’t disadvantaged by having a favoured team mate in set up and design. He just doesn’t have the consistent brilliance of Hamilton or the nerves of steel to do it 60-70 times in a row under pressure and produce the same race results. When Hamilton is consistently quicker across a race, and has a chance of winning, and Bottas isn’t posting that pace, of course they ask him to move over. But they don’t give him a disadvantaged set up.
So I don’t think it’s bollocks at all. I think Hamilton is that good, that experienced, consistent and canny, that you could put him in the Red Bull and he’ll still win the title; or you put him in the McLaren and he competes for it. Even in the first two races of this season where the Red Bull was clearly a lot faster, Hamilton found a way to pull it out of his arse to be competitive and even win one of the races, when realistically given the pace of the two cars, he had no right to.
Verstappen is a great driver but he’s not Hamilton’s level yet, and there’s no guarantee he ever will be. This is even as Hamilton nears the end of his career and Verstappen is around his peak. This year with a car that’s just as good as the Merc, and sometimes better, and with a team focused purely on him, catering to him, and a car built to suit just him, he really should be winning the title or taking it to the wire if he’s as good as so many seem to say he is. Now with Red Bull poaching half of Mercedes technical team, maybe they’ll find a way to break Hamilton.
Red Bull constantly throw away a meaningful constructors challenge because their second driver is an after thought, as Horner basically fellates Max with gleeful abandon. His favouritism to his golden child does the team a disservice IMO.
Red Bull burned through three really talented young drivers in Ricciardo, Albon, and Gasly in order to feed Horner’s Verstappen fetish. And now they are poaching most of Mercedes garage and technical department to try and take the next step. I have to say that I am generally not a fan of their team, management, or approach, whilst still being able to appreciate the talent of their driver line up. But this shouldn’t come as a surprise when their team principal is someone as narcissistic and self involved as Christian Horner.
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Amen.
It's why I don't buy the bollocks about Max being the most talented driver right now.
Lewis is comfortably ahead of Max and if you put them both in the same car, Lewis would destroy him over the season just like he does to everyone else.
Red Bull quicker
Look I get it, you're a fan of Lewis and he's quite obviously a brilliant driver, but it's also very obvious the Merc so far has been the fastest car. What you're saying about the RB being clearly faster isn't backed up by anything other than Mercedes propaganda. in some situations the Red Bull can be faster than the Merc, but it usually isn't and that's being proven practically every race and qualifying session. Whether Max is a better driver than Lewis right now is hard to say. I think they're probably on the same level right now except Lewis has been at that level for longer and yes it remains to be seen whether Max can keep this up for as long Lewis has. They're both extremely talented but there's no denying Lewis has been in the fastest car on the grid ever since he joined Mercedes.
I have no idea why you feel the need to bash Verstappen the way you're doing or even worse bring ethnicity into the conversation. Yes, Verstappen wears his heart in his sleeve. He says what he thinks. It's a very Dutch thing and I love it. Lewis on the other hand is probably the example teachers use when teaching media training. That's fine too and I get why someone would have a preference for Lewis but I don't. It's absolutely nothing to do with race.
When Verstappen burst onto the scene he produced DOTD winning performances in a Toro Rosso. When he switched to Red Bull it didn't take long for him to beat Ricciardo. Ricciardo then decided to leave because he didn't want to be number two. Albon regularly fecked up so you can't really blame RB for letting him go. Verstappen is RB #1 on merit, not because of favouritism from Horner and if some young driver came in and did to Max what Max did to Ricciardo I'm sure Horner would love it.
I bring ethnicity into it because 400 years of racial inequality tell us it’s not an even playing field. This is not even remotely controversial and we’ve seen for years the level of scrutiny has been different.
I haven’t bashed Max for the sake of bashing Max, I brought up things he’s done which are easily verifiable and I’ve posited the legitimate question about whether Lewis would’ve been able to get away with that sort of behaviour, and his ethnicity is a relevant contextual matter to answering that.
Lewis has had the best car on the grid but lots of drivers have in their careers, and not always won. To do it the way Lewis has, for as long as he has, gets readily dismissed by some as a simple “anyone would do it if they had his car”, which is just bollocks.
The Red Bull number two drivers have never been allowed to flourish. It’s hard when the team is built around Max and the car set up for him. Red Bull took young drivers and ditched them after a season when they made mistakes. If that is your attitude, then don’t pick up young drivers. Pick a seasoned pro.
Ricciardo left because he could see he’d always be in Max’s shadow at Red Bull and that would only worsen every season. He’s a top quality driver, and while he may not quite be in Max’s class, he’s still one of the top ten drivers on the grid. Yeah, I don’t blame him for wanting to go somewhere where it isn’t the Max Verstaplen show sponsored by Christian Horner.
As for giving Verstappen a pass for saying offensive, inappropriate things, even loving it “because he says what he feels”, is the same mentality as people loving Trump because he tells it like it is; instead of acknowledging that he says some stupid and offensive shit.
@simonhch lighten up mate. Nobody is disrespecting Hamilton here, there's really no need to defend him this passionately. You've probably seen some racial discrimination against him somewhere and are sensitive to that, fair enough, but I don't think anyone here has done that, so it's just weird bringing that up now.
And your last sentence is kind of desperate. No need for that.
And your last sentence is kind of desperate. No need for that.
Clever of Lewis to go up to Bottas on the podium and kill any ice between them. Still early in the season and Lewis will be better off without there being a big rift. it was really poor of Bottas though, I hope he can watch the highlights to understand what Lewis was doing, completely different strategy and Lewis was well ahead of him before a second stop and confident he'd finally get past Max after the one stop, I think he would too but doing a second stop with flying laps was a more surer way and not even possible with Bottas at the wheel. Lewis makes that happen.
I think people underestimate just how good Lewis is. I've even noticed more respect coming from Max. When he saw Lewis get past Bottas in the same hardware all equal early in the race in Portugal on the outside with a bold move (Max was right there to see it) it did change his tone a bit. You don't see Bottas all over the back of Lewis if in second but when Lewis is behind he's all over the gearbox until he passes or tyres give up, he's just fast and can reel people in with different driving lines, same with Rosberg who is much faster and still Lewis was getting past him often and hunting him down, you can go back to his first year upsetting Alonso, Lewis was faster day 1 first season no excuses about cars and setups, took a few years for Alonso to see it and now has the upmost respect. Ferrari and Vettel were beaten by Lewis when they had a fast car and Vettel was in form and many years on Lewis is still doing it at 36 while the rest fade away. Matching or getting close to a lap time is one thing but keeping a level very high for 20-50 laps is another, that comes naturally without looking at data. Longer more complex tracks also show the pace difference in one lap, some short tracks can even drivers up more in quali.
I think people underestimate just how good Lewis is. I've even noticed more respect coming from Max. When he saw Lewis get past Bottas in the same hardware all equal early in the race in Portugal on the outside with a bold move (Max was right there to see it) it did change his tone a bit. You don't see Bottas all over the back of Lewis if in second but when Lewis is behind he's all over the gearbox until he passes or tyres give up, he's just fast and can reel people in with different driving lines, same with Rosberg who is much faster and still Lewis was getting past him often and hunting him down, you can go back to his first year upsetting Alonso, Lewis was faster day 1 first season no excuses about cars and setups, took a few years for Alonso to see it and now has the upmost respect. Ferrari and Vettel were beaten by Lewis when they had a fast car and Vettel was in form and many years on Lewis is still doing it at 36 while the rest fade away. Matching or getting close to a lap time is one thing but keeping a level very high for 20-50 laps is another, that comes naturally without looking at data. Longer more complex tracks also show the pace difference in one lap, some short tracks can even drivers up more in quali.
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I honestly find it incredible that people still doubt Lewis Hamiltons ability. Or Mercedes brains.
Or Max's potential. Or Lando's. Or Leclerc.
Worlds a tribal place at the moment. Doesn't have to be one or the other.
Or Max's potential. Or Lando's. Or Leclerc.
Worlds a tribal place at the moment. Doesn't have to be one or the other.
Red bull were definitely quicker in the first 2 races, Portimao was pretty equal, but Mercedes were clearly better in Barcelona on the medium tyres.
It's just the type of track though, Red Bull will be good at Monaco.
To say 1 car is clearly faster than the other is pure nonsense.
Hamilton yet again shows he is the absolute best. His ability to make his tyres last when behind, then push when on fresh tyres is just 2nd to none.
People can give it the "it's the car" but his team mate is never anywhere near close.
I'd love for him to do 1 more year at Mercedes, then go back to Mclaren and smash it. Leave nobody with any excuses.
It's just the type of track though, Red Bull will be good at Monaco.
To say 1 car is clearly faster than the other is pure nonsense.
Hamilton yet again shows he is the absolute best. His ability to make his tyres last when behind, then push when on fresh tyres is just 2nd to none.
People can give it the "it's the car" but his team mate is never anywhere near close.
I'd love for him to do 1 more year at Mercedes, then go back to Mclaren and smash it. Leave nobody with any excuses.
Yesterday there was some nice analysis on low, medium and high speed corners. As you say, there is no "fastest car". Each car has a sweet spot on different parts of an individual track, and it comes down to how much of that sweet spot is on a particular track, and how that can be balanced.
Let's see how the RB drivers do at Monaco. Surely they should be favourites?
Most likely I would say, qualifying is arguably more important here than at any other track due to track position, so Saturday should decide the race result in theory. Unless there's some freak weather and/or some strategy own goals.
Exactly, some cars suit some tracks. Red Bull traditionally do great at Monaco due to their car excelling in traction zones and low speed corners. Saying that though, Hamilton was the fastest through sector 3 at Barcelona which is very 'Monaco' with high kerbs and low speed twists. It'll be very close.
It also depends on the setup, your car can be the best package but if you don't get the right level of downforce / top speed you'll be a sitting duck on the straights.
Mclaren for instance seem to be going for the lower downforce route, they're very difficult to overtake down the straight due to the Mercedes engine + higher top speeds with less drag.
Ferrari on the opposite are high downforce and great round high speed corners, but on the straights they're dead slow and struggle to overtake.
The "it's the car" arguement can be made for Verstappen also, but it only ever seem to apply for Hamilton.
The problem is that Hamilton's teammate is "never anywhere close" by design. It's a dream scenario for Wolff to be able to waltz to the Constructors without any major clashes between his two drivers. And because of their dominance as a team, the unwillingness to have two highly competitive drivers has essentially nullified the Driver's as a contest.
Bottas is evidently nowhere near Hamilton in points-scoring and that is a compliment to Hamilton as much as a criticism of Bottas. But what we're seeing this season is, now that Red Bull have a comparable car, Bottas looks a distant second to Verstappen too. Yet in the standings over the last few years Verstappen hasn't been able to get close to Bottas. That clearly shows that the Merc has been objectively the far better car in previous seasons and so Hamilton's only genuine threat during that time has been Bottas, who isn't really a threat at all.
At the end of the day you have to maximise results given the conditions, which Hamilton has done to full effect. None of this should reflect badly on him. I just hope that the other teams raise their game enough that Mercedes are no longer comfortable with not having the best available driver in each of their cars.
Bottas is evidently nowhere near Hamilton in points-scoring and that is a compliment to Hamilton as much as a criticism of Bottas. But what we're seeing this season is, now that Red Bull have a comparable car, Bottas looks a distant second to Verstappen too. Yet in the standings over the last few years Verstappen hasn't been able to get close to Bottas. That clearly shows that the Merc has been objectively the far better car in previous seasons and so Hamilton's only genuine threat during that time has been Bottas, who isn't really a threat at all.
At the end of the day you have to maximise results given the conditions, which Hamilton has done to full effect. None of this should reflect badly on him. I just hope that the other teams raise their game enough that Mercedes are no longer comfortable with not having the best available driver in each of their cars.
I'd be very intrigued to see Russell join Mercedes, it would gain him a lot of experience being number 2 to Lewis, ready to step up when he retires. Maybe even challenge Lewis himself?
Bottas is just a bit dull, but almost always secures 3rd, while Perez/ whoever toils somewhat in the 2nd Red Bull.
Wonder when C Horner's finger will start to twitch towards the ejector seat button for Perez... hes shown not vast amounts of patience to young inexperienced drivers who are making the step up, I should imagine him having even less patience for what I thought was a strong driver.
Wonder who will sign Bottas up if he does leave? Can't think of many seats that will be empty as surely he won't step down as far as Williams to replace George if he takes Bottas' seat?
Bottas is just a bit dull, but almost always secures 3rd, while Perez/ whoever toils somewhat in the 2nd Red Bull.
Wonder when C Horner's finger will start to twitch towards the ejector seat button for Perez... hes shown not vast amounts of patience to young inexperienced drivers who are making the step up, I should imagine him having even less patience for what I thought was a strong driver.
Wonder who will sign Bottas up if he does leave? Can't think of many seats that will be empty as surely he won't step down as far as Williams to replace George if he takes Bottas' seat?
Although Mercedes have been dominant for years, I think people forget that there have been years where it has been very close. The 2017 Ferrari was looking better than the Merc until half way through the season and I would argue that the Ferrari was the better car for around 10 races in 2018 and equal for another 4 or 5.
This year, it looks close. Mercedes definitely looked at their best yesterday but the track is definitely going to suit the cars differently. The Red Bull has been consistently quicker through speed traps this year too which is slightly surprising and may be down to the car setups.
This year, it looks close. Mercedes definitely looked at their best yesterday but the track is definitely going to suit the cars differently. The Red Bull has been consistently quicker through speed traps this year too which is slightly surprising and may be down to the car setups.
Red Bull when they give up on Perez as per the norm.
If even Bottas can't keep up with Max, maybe they'll realise they need to rethink their strategy for developing their car for both drivers instead of just going all in on Max.
While it is perfectly understandable that we focus on the leading manufacturers and drivers, the midfield pack are increasingly close this season. Either McLaren or Ferrari are in front of that pack of cars, but not able to really challenge.
Some very close racing though.
Some very close racing though.
It's a catch 22 for them, Max most likely can't win the championship unless Perez can compete with the Mercs and steal points from them, but at the same time Max wouldn't be as fast if the car wasn't tailored for him.
This is another reason why the Merc is such a superior car to the RB as even an "average" driver like Bottas is miles ahead of the rest of the field in it and their strategists have so many options because of it. Max has to rely on pace alone to stay ahead and I doubt that's going to work over a full season when him and Lewis are so close.
I still think Alonso would be up there with Hamilton out of the current drivers though he's getting older.
Max will be a great driver, everyone knows that. He's already good. Merc wanted him. He can match Hamilton on pace and in most races. Hamilton probably has the edge in most people's eyes, you can't negate the amount of experience Hamilton has. Experience usually brings consistency.
This could be one of Max most important years as he will likely fall just short but learn so much just as Hamilton did in his first year.
When Hamilton goes, Max will dominate. Let's hope there is even competition with the new rules giving likes of Leclerc, Russell, and Norris a chance!
Max will be a great driver, everyone knows that. He's already good. Merc wanted him. He can match Hamilton on pace and in most races. Hamilton probably has the edge in most people's eyes, you can't negate the amount of experience Hamilton has. Experience usually brings consistency.
This could be one of Max most important years as he will likely fall just short but learn so much just as Hamilton did in his first year.
When Hamilton goes, Max will dominate. Let's hope there is even competition with the new rules giving likes of Leclerc, Russell, and Norris a chance!
It's pretty much nailed on the wall isn't it?
He's a Mercedes driver, been tutored by them since a young age.
He was very close to taking Bottas seat for this year, but they've given Bottas 1 more chance to see his contract out. He'll 100% be in the car next year, either next to Hamilton if he carries on or Bottas if he decides to leave.
Put Hamilton in it and it would be.Red Bull quicker
No chance
Yep he would win in either car. He’s just the better driver. The way he reads the tracks is second to none.
Every 4 races the top 2 drivers should swap cars for a race and see what happens
it's the tyre management that he is excels at better than anybody. On outright pace then Verstappen can hang with him, but when it comes to making the best of his tyres and keeping the pace up nobody can withstand his pressure.
Absolutely. Hamilton is on of the best. Once he retires Verstapen has the potential to equal him, if he develops well and gets in a fast car.
Red Bull have lead 60% of laps so far, so for the "mercedes are quicker" gang, that isn't a stat that fits.
The reason RB have led more laps at this point is because Max made a better start than Lewis on sunday on a track where it's incredibly hard to overtake on pace alone, proven by the fact that Lewis and Merc gave up on the idea and instead used strategy to get it done at the very end of the race instead. This means a big chunk of those 60% are simply down to one good start at a poorly designed track. Perez leading laps in Portugal was also down to him doing a forever stint, not because his car was faster than the Mercs.
So considering that Merc would've led more laps if Hamilton or Bottas had made a better start in 1 out of the 4 races so far I don't know if it's such a good stat to use to conclude which car is faster.
Use an eye test buddy. The Merc is the quickest car by far. You will see them pull away as well. They just don't follow very well. Once agead, they are gone
The Red Bull is the quicker car in qualifying by all accounts, but it struggles with its rear tyres on the longer runs in race trim. I'd argue that its very close between them and it'll vary from circuit to circuit as to which one has the upper hand.
just like max in imola?
Use an eye test buddy. The Merc is the quickest car by far. You will see them pull away as well. They just don't follow very well. Once agead, they are gone
horses for courses my friend
Hamilton was catching him hand over fist when he spun off.
I find the Hamilton fans shitting on Mercedes just so they can say he is great weird. He's clearly amongst the greatest, but the people here are overly defensive
catching doesn’t necessarily mean he’s faster, max could have been minding his tyres with a huge lead.
anyway the rest of the season will be proof. no doubt it’s very tight.
I think people are fairly defensive when a 7 time champion is reduced to “it’s just the car”. Verstappen and red bull have turned up at the perfect time to cement his legacy.