F1 2021 Season

slyadams said:
Quite easily, he could easily have given more Hamilton space. He would have lost the corner, but it would have avoided the crash. There's been two or three times this season those two would have collided if Lewis hadn't been the one to back out.

It boggles my mind that pundits and drivers seem about 60/40 on it being Lewis' fault, a position I agree with, and yet people saying that "10 seconds isn't enough". Its borderline on being a penalty so the magnitude of the punishment should reflect that. To say "well, Lewis is so good he'll get the 10s back" is asinine,
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it should have been a 10 second stop and go, not a 10 second penalty.

This “let’s just add seconds to their race” is horse shit, especially if you drive a red bull or Mercedes as those cars are more often than not, nearly one second per lap faster than the next fastest car.

If you decide that Lewis is at fault and therefore destroying Max’s race, his race should be heavily affected as well. A 10 second penalty does not accurately reflect the overall damage the incident caused.

I do wonder if social factors (especially considering last week) didn’t play on the mind of the Stewards in determining the severity of the penalty?

If we look back over time Schumacher got similarly fecked over at Silverstone 94 which inevitably assisted Damon Hill into putting an undeserved title fight together.
 
slyadams said:
Its pretty easy to win a championship if you just award points on lap 1.
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I’m pretty confident that Verstappen would have won that race tbh. Hamilton’s pace on mediums wasn’t even better than Leclerc in a Ferrari.
 
mariachi-19 said:
it should have been a 10 second stop and go, not a 10 second penalty.

This “let’s just add seconds to their race” is horse shit, especially if you drive a red bull or Mercedes as those cars are more often than not, nearly one second per lap faster than the next fastest car.

If you decide that Lewis is at fault and therefore destroying Max’s race, his race should be heavily affected as well. A 10 second penalty does not accurately reflect the overall damage the incident caused.

I do wonder if social factors (especially considering last week) didn’t play on the mind of the Stewards in determining the severity of the penalty?

If we look back over time Schumacher got similarly fecked over at Silverstone 94 which inevitably assisted Damon Hill into putting an undeserved title fight together.
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I think the point, though, per the FIA incident report is that they did not conclude it was fully Hamilton’s fault. They concluded it was PREDOMINANTLY his fault. F1 is not so binary that it’s 100:0, 50:50, or 0:100 when it comes to assigning blame for incidents. It is far more nuanced then that. The penalty therefore reflects that the FIA felt that whilst they didn’t quite feel the incident was racing, they also acknowledged that actually it wasn’t all down to Hamilton, or that Hamilton wasn’t reckless.
 
dinostar77 said:
Leclerc and Alonso on the incident between lewis and max.

Leclerc

Ferrari's Charles Leclerc was right behind the collision and inherited the lead after it, and lost what would have been his first victory of the year when Hamilton passed him for the win with two laps to go. He said: "It is a racing incident. It is quite difficult to put the blame on one or the other.

"There was space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex but it is also true Max was quite aggressive on the outside. Things happen. The most important today is Max is unharmed and is fine."

Alonso

And Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion, who has passed people around the outside of Copse a number of times in his career - including in the sprint race on Saturday - said: "Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max, so in a way Lewis could not disappear from that inside line. You can't vanish. So it was an unfortunate moment but nothing intentional and nothing that any of the two drivers did wrong."
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I think this sums it up well.
 
Both drivers are at fault, Lewis mis judged a risky manouver and Max was overly aggressive in his defending.

It was bound to happen sooner or later, Lewis wasn't just going to keep on conceding the position because Max is very aggressive in his defending.

Max took three different lines in the approach to copse 'defending' against lewis who was carrying greater speed and had every right to make an attempt to get in front, once they got in to the corner either one of them could of and perhaps should of backed out of it but neither gave an inch. Max was the unlucky one this time but it could gone either way or even perhaps they could of both ended up in the barriers.

Max is the one that lost out, maybe a little lesson for him that sometimes its better to concede the position to stay on the track especially we he had a decent lead in the championship, Lewis has already backed out a few times this season to avoid similar incidents but he obviously felt it was time to stand his ground and you can't blame him, behind in the title race, home GP and Mercedes had shown they could compete this weekend.
 
Longshanks said:
Both drivers are at fault, Lewis mis judged a risky manouver and Max was overly aggressive in his defending.

It was bound to happen sooner or later, Lewis wasn't just going to keep on conceding the position because Max is very aggressive in his defending.

Max took three different lines in the approach to copse 'defending' against lewis who was carrying greater speed and had every right to make an attempt to get in front, once they got in to the corner either one of them could of and perhaps should of backed out of it but neither gave an inch. Max was the unlucky one this time but it could gone either way or even perhaps they could of both ended up in the barriers.

Max is the one that lost out, maybe a little lesson for him that sometimes its better to concede the position to stay on the track especially we he had a decent lead in the championship, Lewis has already backed out a few times this season to avoid similar incidents but he obviously felt it was time to stand his ground and you can't blame him, behind in the title race, home GP and Mercedes had shown they could compete this weekend.
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I think regardless of where you sit on the “who is to blame” scale, the last paragraph I think is very pertinent and really demonstrates that whilst Max is an exceptional driver, a brilliant talent, it’s not right yet to put him in the kind of bracket people put him in.

Hamilton didn’t risk those 50:50s earlier in the year because the Mercedes was competitive and he was leading or very close in the championship. But now, the table has turned and he knows to win, he has to take all of these opportunities. There’s a reason why Hamilton didn’t back down yesterday but did previously. Max has to learn this which will come with experience. With his 35 point lead in the championship, even if you ignore that he had a great chance to pass Hamilton if he gave up that place there as the red bull is faster, he would still have been better off to avoid the risk because the risk reward relationship has changed. Coming second is a far better outcome with significantly less risk than the reward for the risk taken in keeping first there. Unfortunately he found that out the hard way. He’s young and he’s brilliant, but he needs to learn this. Ironically not too dissimilar to what a young Hamilton had to learn. Trouble for him is unlike how Hamilton had a McLaren team who didn’t entertain his nonsense, and a team mate in Alonso who was a great role model, Verstappen just doesn’t have that around him at Red Bull, especially with Horner who is a bell end.
 
The reasons people are raging against Hamilton:


1. The lack of consequence for eliminating your rival from the race and gaining 32 points in the standings by doing so. A complete farce penalty that had no bearing on the offenders race.

2. Free repairs after causing a collision enabling the offender to keep his position when he should have been in the pits and last.

3. The celebration like he had won the WDC when he won because of an incident he was deemed guilty of causing

4. The actual incident.

If the FIA had given Lewis a proper penalty he would have finished like 7th to 10th or so and still gained a few points on Max, but the real outrage would have been avoided since FIA had signaled its NOT OK and you cant benefit greatly from taking out your main rival!

So basicly 4 things that are clearly wrong, the incident, the red flag saving repairs, the lack of sufficient penalty and the celebration.

Had the FIA sanctioned Hamilton properly, the repair issue and celebration issue would have been eleminated. I could have lived with the incident, if the proper penatly had been assessed.

Hamilton basicly erased Max excellent driving this year by making a mistake running into Max, I dont see how anybody can argue that is good for the sport.

Red Bull will have change engine and gearbox etc as well which could further decide the championship.

Final note: Its possible that Lewis is getting more abuse than he should have because of the insanity of the regulations.
 
I think it’s real interesting, though, how Red Bull have reacted. I think as Hamilton has matured, he no doubt has looked more calm on and off the track. I am purely speculating but I can’t help but feel a part of the huge reaction from Red Bull is also that they’d probably taken for granted / forgotten the fire Hamilton still has.
 
Lightbringer said:
3. The celebration like he had won the WDC when he won because of an incident he was deemed guilty of causing
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This is a dumb reason to be annoyed at him. He's won at his home grand prix in front of a packed crowd after a year of turmoil for the public and the world due to Covid, plus he's behind in the Championship so this win is monumentous.
 
Lightbringer said:
The reasons people are raging against Hamilton:


1. The lack of consequence for eliminating your rival from the race and gaining 32 points in the standings by doing so. A complete farce penalty that had no bearing on the offenders race.

2. Free repairs after causing a collision enabling the offender to keep his position when he should have been in the pits and last.

3. The celebration like he had won the WDC when he won because of an incident he was deemed guilty of causing

4. The actual incident.

If the FIA had given Lewis a proper penalty he would have finished like 7th to 10th or so and still gained a few points on Max, but the real outrage would have been avoided since FIA had signaled its NOT OK and you cant benefit greatly from taking out your main rival!

So basicly 4 things that are clearly wrong, the incident, the red flag saving repairs, the lack of sufficient penalty and the celebration.

Had the FIA sanctioned Hamilton properly, the repair issue and celebration issue would have been eleminated. I could have lived with the incident, if the proper penatly had been assessed.

Hamilton basicly erased Max excellent driving this year by making a mistake running into Max, I dont see how anybody can argue that is good for the sport.

Red Bull will have change engine and gearbox etc as well which could further decide the championship.

Final note: Its possible that Lewis is getting more abuse than he should have because of the insanity of the regulations.
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Sorry but I would reverse some of this back to you. Point 2, I can agree on, the regulations are strange but they have been there for all races. At different times they benefit different people. But:

Point 3: He won his home race. He’s allowed to celebrate. If it rubs people up the wrong way, it is what it is. If Hamilton had been the one out, you really think Max doesn’t celebrate? Please.

Point 1 and 4 are linked. Has it occurred to you that the FIA gave such a penalty because the incident might not have been as bad as you seem to suggest? Or moreover, that Max also had a portion of blame? And the penalty therefore reflected that whilst it wasn’t a racing incident, it also wasn’t also Hamilton’s fault entirely? Your argument hinges on the first assertion that Hamilton was reckless. The FIA, several pundits, and other impartial racers (Le Clerc and Alonso) also see it that it was a racing incident. In that context, why is the penalty not fair?
 
SilentWitness said:
This is a dumb reason to be annoyed at him. He's won at his home grand prix in front of a packed crowd after a year of turmoil for the public and the world due to Covid, plus he's behind in the Championship so this win is monumentous.
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I would not be celebrating a win where I had sent my biggest rival to the hospital and escaped with the win because of luck, lenient stewards and a fiasco of regulations. I would have shown some respect and class and toned it down a bit. But each to their own in that aspect. The victory was enormous but came in a clear wrongful way, which should be acknowledged and not celebrated overly.

The rules have sucked balls for too long and it does not matter who it happens to, it must change. Of course this is highlighted by that this tussle was for the championship lead. But it happens lower in the field as well. Ruining someone elses race and being slapped with a 5 or 10 seconds time penalty is a complete farce, always has been, always will be. Bring back the good old days with drive through penalties please. Take someone out and finish easily in front of them make zero sense.
 
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Kanu said:
Max has done that a couple times this season already, so yes. Lewis has a history with this kind of thing though. Ask Albon.
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Which couple of times. The fact is that it is the other way round.
 
dinostar77 said:
Leclerc and Alonso on the incident between lewis and max.

Leclerc

Ferrari's Charles Leclerc was right behind the collision and inherited the lead after it, and lost what would have been his first victory of the year when Hamilton passed him for the win with two laps to go. He said: "It is a racing incident. It is quite difficult to put the blame on one or the other.

"There was space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex but it is also true Max was quite aggressive on the outside. Things happen. The most important today is Max is unharmed and is fine."

Alonso

And Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion, who has passed people around the outside of Copse a number of times in his career - including in the sprint race on Saturday - said: "Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max, so in a way Lewis could not disappear from that inside line. You can't vanish. So it was an unfortunate moment but nothing intentional and nothing that any of the two drivers did wrong."
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Two excellent drivers. Both summed it up accurately.
And that is more than good enough for me.
 
mariachi-19 said:
it should have been a 10 second stop and go, not a 10 second penalty.

This “let’s just add seconds to their race” is horse shit, especially if you drive a red bull or Mercedes as those cars are more often than not, nearly one second per lap faster than the next fastest car.

If you decide that Lewis is at fault and therefore destroying Max’s race, his race should be heavily affected as well. A 10 second penalty does not accurately reflect the overall damage the incident caused.

I do wonder if social factors (especially considering last week) didn’t play on the mind of the Stewards in determining the severity of the penalty?

If we look back over time Schumacher got similarly fecked over at Silverstone 94 which inevitably assisted Damon Hill into putting an undeserved title fight together.
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The reason they didn't choose a 10 second stop and go is because it didn't deserve that level of punishment. As the poster earlier said it was 60/40 Lewis fault at best.
 
dinostar77 said:
Leclerc and Alonso on the incident between lewis and max.

Leclerc

Ferrari's Charles Leclerc was right behind the collision and inherited the lead after it, and lost what would have been his first victory of the year when Hamilton passed him for the win with two laps to go. He said: "It is a racing incident. It is quite difficult to put the blame on one or the other.

"There was space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex but it is also true Max was quite aggressive on the outside. Things happen. The most important today is Max is unharmed and is fine."

Alonso

And Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion, who has passed people around the outside of Copse a number of times in his career - including in the sprint race on Saturday - said: "Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max, so in a way Lewis could not disappear from that inside line. You can't vanish. So it was an unfortunate moment but nothing intentional and nothing that any of the two drivers did wrong."
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Sums it up nicely. This should draw a line and answer the question.



It won't though.
 
Lightbringer said:
The reasons people are raging against Hamilton:


1. The lack of consequence for eliminating your rival from the race and gaining 32 points in the standings by doing so. A complete farce penalty that had no bearing on the offenders race.

2. Free repairs after causing a collision enabling the offender to keep his position when he should have been in the pits and last.

3. The celebration like he had won the WDC when he won because of an incident he was deemed guilty of causing

4. The actual incident.

If the FIA had given Lewis a proper penalty he would have finished like 7th to 10th or so and still gained a few points on Max, but the real outrage would have been avoided since FIA had signaled its NOT OK and you cant benefit greatly from taking out your main rival!

So basicly 4 things that are clearly wrong, the incident, the red flag saving repairs, the lack of sufficient penalty and the celebration.

Had the FIA sanctioned Hamilton properly, the repair issue and celebration issue would have been eleminated. I could have lived with the incident, if the proper penatly had been assessed.

Hamilton basicly erased Max excellent driving this year by making a mistake running into Max, I dont see how anybody can argue that is good for the sport.

Red Bull will have change engine and gearbox etc as well which could further decide the championship.

Final note: Its possible that Lewis is getting more abuse than he should have because of the insanity of the regulations.
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1. The punishment was measured against the incident. It took an amazing drive from Hamilton to come back from that. Taking Leclerc at copse was quality and showed it is possible.

2. These are the rules. It is for safety grounds and benefits all drivers. Fir example all drivers restarted on new tyres.

3. Ridiculous. You expect a driver to mope around, looking sad after winning their home race? Arguably also after receiving a harsh penalty when you consider Max weaves around dangerously whenever anyone tries to overtake him.

In Hamiltons interview with sky he found out Max had gone to hospital and said he hopes he gets better. So he only found out later after the celebrations. But the hospital visit was only precautionary.

4. See point about Max weaving dangerously. He has done it for years.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Sums it up nicely. This should draw a line and answer the question.



It won't though.
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You are right. The media is going to stoke this rivalry up at every opportunity.

A more fundamental question than who was at fault has to be - do we really want to see close racing or not.
Whenever you get two 2 meter wide cars travelling at speed, both wanting the same part of the track and neither wanting to give the other the advantage, then the likelihood of contact will increase.
We can't have it both ways.
Either a monotonous procession.
Or two of the top racers doing what they are best at. Racing.

Yes of course safety needs to be maintained. But we have to trust the judgement of the drivers.
But I certainly prefer the latter.
 
dinostar77 said:
Leclerc and Alonso on the incident between lewis and max.

Leclerc

Ferrari's Charles Leclerc was right behind the collision and inherited the lead after it, and lost what would have been his first victory of the year when Hamilton passed him for the win with two laps to go. He said: "It is a racing incident. It is quite difficult to put the blame on one or the other.

"There was space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex but it is also true Max was quite aggressive on the outside. Things happen. The most important today is Max is unharmed and is fine."

Alonso

And Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion, who has passed people around the outside of Copse a number of times in his career - including in the sprint race on Saturday - said: "Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max, so in a way Lewis could not disappear from that inside line. You can't vanish. So it was an unfortunate moment but nothing intentional and nothing that any of the two drivers did wrong."
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2 well respected drivers, who are well liked on here, with their opinion of the incident, that should be a line drawn, but it won't, this will rumble on for the rest of the season.
Other place are far worse than here, some saying he should be banned , some say he could've killed Max
But the Max fans won't accept it.
 
Infordin said:
I’m pretty confident that Verstappen would have won that race tbh. Hamilton’s pace on mediums wasn’t even better than Leclerc in a Ferrari.
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That’s not how sport works. I was confident England would beat Italy but I couldn’t go around writing “England have won Euro 2020”.

Max lost that race in part because he made a poor decision. There’s been 9 or 10 incidents like this so far this season, including a few yesterday, and the first time Max is in that position they crash. I’m confident (and therefore I can state this as fact) that if Lewis was in Max’s position they wouldn’t have contacted. Max’s inexperience cost him today.
 
From May 2021. Spanish GP. Christian Horner.

"Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well,” said Horner after the Spanish GP. “He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,” he added."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...-says-his-drivers.2lU7c1wC1oSYZOMLMy9ijd.html
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
From May 2021. Spanish GP. Christian Horner.

"Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well,” said Horner after the Spanish GP. “He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,” he added."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...-says-his-drivers.2lU7c1wC1oSYZOMLMy9ijd.html
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Horner is an idiot but its obvious hes going to be biased
 
It was their Senna and Prost moment. Verstappen knew he would be squeezing Hamilton, Hamilton knew the gap was going to disappear, and neither of them was going to back out the way a lesser driver would. They were testing each other and got too close.

It probably was a penalty simply because Hamilton ran wide and it's not possible to know if that was intentional or not. Not much in it though. In football terms giving/not giving a penalty would not be a clear and obvious error.
 
rpitroda said:
Horner is a dick head. I don’t think that’s up for debate. Even Max fans would acknowledge that!
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nah. they’re too busy with their fantasies of turning up in milton keynes and being greeted by horner and max in togas. a procession of rb staff walk by them, whipping them with palm leaves. tiki flames lick at them as they are ushered into one of the marketing suites at rb f1 hq. max silently gestures for them to sit on the floor. they gladly comply. max and horner slide their togas to one side and begin pissing on them. their golden arches of salvation splashing against their grateful faces. they come to at their desk at work, confused co-workers look on in horror “why were you chanting “max horn, max horn” and why have you pissed yourself?”

“it‘s rb racing, you wouldn’t understand.”
 
hobbers said:
In a thread full of ignorant rabid fanboys I do, yeh. That's what being a fan of racing rather than of one particularly driver or team gets you.

Since you apparently don't know, Aston Martin are a satellite team for all intents and purposes. As far as F1 politics goes they are Mercedes.
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You're exactly the kind of rabid fan boy you're calling out, at least in an anti Hamilton sense, and yet try to call yourself "a fan of racing over one team". It's hilarious.

At least the other "fanboys" you point out in the thread are honest enough to admit their bias.
 
Add to that the comments from Horner about Albon’s penalty at Silverstone last year. Different corner and different speeds of course, but the move is effectively the same.
 
mariachi-19 said:
it should have been a 10 second stop and go, not a 10 second penalty.

This “let’s just add seconds to their race” is horse shit, especially if you drive a red bull or Mercedes as those cars are more often than not, nearly one second per lap faster than the next fastest car.

If you decide that Lewis is at fault and therefore destroying Max’s race, his race should be heavily affected as well. A 10 second penalty does not accurately reflect the overall damage the incident caused.

I do wonder if social factors (especially considering last week) didn’t play on the mind of the Stewards in determining the severity of the penalty?

If we look back over time Schumacher got similarly fecked over at Silverstone 94 which inevitably assisted Damon Hill into putting an undeserved title fight together.
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It isn't supposed to, you penalise the incident, not the outcome.

It's the job of the stewards to coldly apply the rules and to ignore whatever happened outside of the incident (crashes, explosions, etc).

It's the same in football, if a player commits a foul, the punishment isn't decided by how badly injured the opposition is, its decided by the actions of the player.
 
Would be nice to see Red Bull/Horner and Verstappen put out a statement on the racist abuse Hamilton has faced...
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Poor response from Max. He is young, he is hot headed and his management team at Red Bull are not setting a good example
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They definitely seem to enable his more childish tendencies, doesn't help when you have Horner setting the example for the entire team with his embarrassing interview after the race.

Max really needs some tough love to force him to grow up a bit, a bit like Lewis was forced to do, but he won't get anything other than smoke blown up his backside at RB.
 
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