Why is RVP has anything to do with RVN and Stam?
Paul Pogba / turned down United offer of 300k as “nothing”
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Why is RVP has anything to do with RVN and Stam?
I replied to your post because you stated that renewing Pogba’s contract would undo all the good work in the transfer market.
I’m not more qualified, but my opinion is the one also shared by the entire football industry and more importantly our own club (considering we are trying to keep him.)
The latter point eludes to my exact train of thought on Pogba, the club knows he’s important for us, they also know we haven’t made the most of him.
Ah well now a feel silly
I guess you also shared the same agreement with the club and the entire football industry with DDG and Sanchez contracts?
Is Pogba that important to the club to earn himself a new contract worth £350-400k a week? What would be the repercussions when the likes of Bruno, Shaw, Maguire etc see their team mate getting twice as much as them but his performance on the pitch do not reflect it?
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He's hardly ever been played as a #10 for United. During Mourinho's time, Mkhitaryan was the #10. During Ole's time, Lingard/Andreas or Bruno have been the #10. The brief period where he consistently played the furthest forward in the midfield 3 was during Caretake Ole period, and he was excellent. Last season he also played well as a LW/false 8.
Ha, exactly. There are certain phrases ("It's political correctness run amok!") that instantly tell you so much about a person and their politics and beliefs, and "pulling the race card" is one of them. First, how is it a card? Do they think this is a game of Monopoly or something? In their eyes is it a Get Out of Jail Free card? And if so, how? How does it work? In their minds, their own discomfort at being asked to look at and think about and acknowledge racism is more traumatic for them than a Black person's experience of actual racism.
Yes, we can all cherry pick examples where white people have come in for similar criticism, but what you're ignoring is that those types of criticism have been overwhelmingly used to fetishize, dehumanize, and denigrate Black people for literally centuries. Laughing at one Beckham haircut is not the equivalent of the weight of millions of similar instances of ridicule toward Black people.
I'm cherry-picking examples to counter cherry-picked examples. We're talking about the way footballers are treated, not the whole of human history
How many other black footballers have their hair choices criticised? I bet no one can think of any. Pogba's are criticised because they change regularly and tie in with his social media branding, just the same as Beckham's were criticised because they supported the view some had that he was more interested in being a celebrity than being a footballer. There's no racial element in the criticisms.
The entire weight of the history of white supremacy is not "cherry-picking examples"! That's my entire point. I'm not just talking about football/footballers here; I'm commenting on the language and tropes used (by pundits, on social media, etc.) in the Pogba situation in the wider context of the history of racism. Why do you have a problem with that? How many times can posters twist themselves into pretzels to avoid looking at something so widespread, so ubiquitous, that it's literally staring them in the face? It's astonishing.
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Am reaching but, with the how much his image is being used in marketing materials, don't think the club is contemplating losing him this season. That may change if there is an astronomical offer but, I'd think if we are really looking to sell him off, we'd not have his face everywhere.
Personally I hope we keep him because it's been clearly evident in many games, if you mark Bruno out, we look toothless. Yes Sancho has come in but, he plays even higher up the pitch. Getting the ball from defense to attack is where Pogba is critical and showed so many times last season when he was one of the better players. If he goes for a free next season, so be it but, by then hopefully we've won a couple of trophies and there are other top players that we will be able to recruit in his place next season.
Personally I hope we keep him because it's been clearly evident in many games, if you mark Bruno out, we look toothless. Yes Sancho has come in but, he plays even higher up the pitch. Getting the ball from defense to attack is where Pogba is critical and showed so many times last season when he was one of the better players. If he goes for a free next season, so be it but, by then hopefully we've won a couple of trophies and there are other top players that we will be able to recruit in his place next season.
Ah yes kindly keep insulating I'm a racist. No shit actual racism is traumatizing to those who experience it, but calling a player lazy is hardly insinuating any racist behavior. I notice you still haven't explained how Shaw being criticized for the same things his whole career means anyone who criticized him as well hate white people. But yeah, keep posting and acting like you're better than people just because I don't see racism lurking behind every corner in the world. Also not sure where I said I was traumatized because some idiots are racist on Twitter. I'm simply referring to the people criticizing him on this thread because he isn't perfect or worth what he wants and that has nothing to do with his race, it has to do with him being an incomplete footballer.
But yeah, keep calling everyone around you a racist who disagrees with you, I'm sure it works wonders for you
In fact, just today, a white English peer criticized a young Black English footballer for her accent. Do you genuinely believe racism and the weight of all that appalling history isn't behind such attacks? That he feels safe and privileged enough to attack someone for their dialect? Aside from the fact it's incredibly ignorant about the diversity of English, you can't look at that and not see white entitlement!
Ha ha, I literally wasn't even talking to you, let alone "insulating" anything! I've explained it enough if you're open to listening. If you're not open to listening, then there's no point in my repeating myself. But anyway, I was responding to another poster, not to you, so you just painted a target on your own chest that I wasn't even aiming at.
Ha ha, I literally wasn't even talking to you, let alone "insulating" anything! I've explained it enough if you're open to listening. If you're not open to listening, then there's no point in my repeating myself. But anyway, I was responding to another poster, not to you, so you just painted a target on your own chest that I wasn't even aiming at.
We had a conversation last night where in every post you basically called me a racist, don't move the goalposts or act like you're having a private conversation in a forum where everyone sees your posts.
And no you haven't explained anything. Just because Sally down the street hates pogba for the color of his skin doesn't mean her neighbor John does too. It's hilarious you me. Your defense of it being racism is that because for centuries racism existed (still. Does obviously) that criticism isn't fair towards him.
And yes, to normal people making fun of a dumb haircut is fine because it's a dumb haircut regardless of skin color. Guess you have different standards for different skin colors.
Go back and reread that conversation. All I can say is I didn't call you a racist, and if you feel like you've been called out as a racist, that's a conversation between you and your conscience. You seem to be having a conversation with yourself. I literally don't know you, so it's not for me to say; I thought we were having a debate about a situation regarding a United player in the context of the sweep of history. Debates aren't personal; among other things, they're ways of looking at the truth.
Oh, and I've literally said that not everyone who criticizes Pogba is doing it for racist reasons. And I've said that more than once. You seem to be hearing something I'm not saying and ignoring the things I am. Your defensiveness is making this conversation impossible, so let's stop now. If you haven't understood what I'm saying thus far (and by your responses you've shown you clearly haven't), we're just going to go around in circles.
Peace out, my friend. Enough now.
At 350k/w I’m all for it. Going to 400k/w + he should sod off.
Yes he is inconsistent but when he is on his game he is often a match winner.
Yes he is inconsistent but when he is on his game he is often a match winner.
It's hardly being defensive. This conversation started because you were quoting what others were saying in this thread as being racist. Not me originally. Not until I started disagreeing with your pathetic world view of racism being behind every corner did you start insinuating that I was a racist. Kind of weird how this whole conversation is you inferring what others are thinking and feeling like you have some moral obligation to judge everyone around you based on what you think about them. The conversation was impossible and it stopped until you decided (yet again) to bring up racism to people calling Pogba a lazy player and disliking his haircuts. I'm quite fine with what I think about myself, I just don't appreciate you doing it for me and others just because you want it to be racism.
You brought the criticisms of Pogba's hair into this. One black footballer is criticised for his hair choices and these criticisms, as already pointed out, are for benign reasons, whether you agree with them or not. They clearly have nothing to do with white supremacy, fetishisms or tropes. You're trying to make links that simply are not there.
The same applies to the other two criticisms you're trying to link to racism. The lazy trope and the entourage trope. No doubt there will be a subsection of people who think a black player is lazy because they are black. But the overwhelming majority don't think like this, and they call i.e. Martial lazy because, by any metric you care to measure, he is lazy. And I shouldn't even need to point out that none of the 'attacks' on Pogba for his choice of agent, and for the behaviour of his agent, have any link at all to race.
There is a racial element in some of the criticisms and some of the praise that black footballers receive, obviously. As we see clearly with the media hounding of Sterling and Rashford. As we see whenever most of the older pundits praise players like Pogba. "Big strong powerful boy" etc. But they are, again, not found in this thread.
Whataboutism. Nothing about this has any overlap with criticisms of Pogba.
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@Flytan @hobbers what's your point of contention? Are you both categorically stating that you believe that there is no racism involved in any of the criticism of or attitudes to Pogba (it's in this thread but we could make it about Martial, Rashford, etc)? Bare in mind most of us have been on this forum long enough to see this exact argument play out numerous times, with posters posting verbatim what's just been posted by yourselves and others.
1st state that none of it is racist, based on stereotypes, etc. (even though you personally know a handful of posters in this thread, at best)
Then make comparisons which tend to miss the point.
Finally, accuse the poster who brought it up of being sensitive (throw in terms like snowflake and SJW).
Etc...
Are you going to say anything new?
I'm curious because whenever I see this go down I'm thinking "So you say there is an element of racism? Ok" bare in mind all the examples of it, to the extent where the club we support has had to release regular statements etc.... Tedious as feck seeing people try to play this stuff down all time tbh.
1st state that none of it is racist, based on stereotypes, etc. (even though you personally know a handful of posters in this thread, at best)
Then make comparisons which tend to miss the point.
Finally, accuse the poster who brought it up of being sensitive (throw in terms like snowflake and SJW).
Etc...
Are you going to say anything new?
I'm curious because whenever I see this go down I'm thinking "So you say there is an element of racism? Ok" bare in mind all the examples of it, to the extent where the club we support has had to release regular statements etc.... Tedious as feck seeing people try to play this stuff down all time tbh.
Haven't done any of these things myself so not sure what sort of 'new' take you're expecting.
It's both facile and futile to try to link criticisms of Pogba over his agent's behaviour, or over his work rate and attitude to defending, or over his social media presence and focus on building his brand, to racism.
And I'm viewing this at the level of the individual because this is a thread about an individual. This isn't a thread about Rashford or Martial. It isn't a thread about Alex Scott. It isn't a thread about the classic racially-linked stereotypes or tropes that are used to denigrate or praise black players.
Are you actually telling me to deal in ultimatums? I have absolutely no clue who is or isn't racist on the internet. You could be. The annoying dude who brought it up could be. Random poster #3 could be. Of course some people hate Pogba because they're racist. What I'll never be okay with is assuming people are racist just because they don't like a player. Like honestly, you people are arguing that because someone said Pogba is a "lazy" player, that they're projecting racism. I don't think he's lazy on the pitch, but if someone wants to think that I'll defend them for their opinion if someone calls them racist for thinking so.
Secondly, he brought it up, I was simply debating his point until he said "call me a snowflake", so I did. That's on him.
Say anything new? Probably not, these threads play themselves out in the same way every time with holier than thou people calling everyone who criticizes said player a racist while completely ignoring players like Shaw experienced the same criticisms. Of course there are racial undertones in sports. Hell, in the NFL, every short white receiver is "the first one in and last one out, brings in his own lunch pail". Racial undertones will always exist, that doesn't mean that players are immune to those criticisms. Pogba, Foden, Beckham, Rio, all have had stupid haircuts (and many more, what was the name of the dude on uruguay's NT with the rat tail?). The haircuts are stupid regardless of their skin color. I don't understand why people come out of the woodwork and cry racism as the first line of defense of black players. They're grown men and should be able to be criticized the same way as any white player. If people are criticizing them differently, then it's a problem.
I'll be honest with you, I haven't seen anything in this thread that could be construed as racism, not in the criticism of Pogba or anyone else for that matter. Have you? I haven't read the entire thread admittedly, but I'm confident that any show of racism would have been flagged and promptly dealt with by a mod. You know that.
I don't doubt the existence of racism on the many various media platforms out there - those that deal in anonymity anyway - but on a heavily moderated forum such as Redcafe? They'd never get away with it.
You both seemingly state there's no racism.
You both seemingly missed the point the poster was making.
You both seemingly went after the poster, @Flytan especially.
If I'm being honest you both don't come out of it looking good.
It's both facile and futile to try to link criticisms of Pogba over his agent's behaviour, or over his work rate and attitude to defending, or over his social media presence and focus on building his brand, to racism. - Why?
And I'm viewing this at the level of the individual because this is a thread about an individual. This isn't a thread about Rashford or Martial. It isn't a thread about Alex Scott. It isn't a thread about the classic racially-linked stereotypes or tropes that are used to denigrate or praise black players. - But it is now, isn't it? Due to a post made earlier bringing up the issue and you and others engaging with that post. If you didn't want to make a thing out of it then why make a thing out of it?
What I'll never be okay with is assuming people are racist just because they don't like a player. - Nobody was doing that, and I think you know that.
but if someone wants to think that I'll defend them for their opinion if someone calls them racist for thinking so. - But why? Maybe that person is racist? Vouch for yourself, when you vouch for the whole of redcafe and beyond I have to wonder why?
I don't understand why people come out of the woodwork and cry racism as the first line of defense of black players. - Wtf man? Is it the first line of defence? Who did this? Take a step back and read and analyse what you are writing...
You both seemingly missed the point the poster was making.
You both seemingly went after the poster, @Flytan especially.
If I'm being honest you both don't come out of it looking good.
More specifically:
It's both facile and futile to try to link criticisms of Pogba over his agent's behaviour, or over his work rate and attitude to defending, or over his social media presence and focus on building his brand, to racism. - Why?
And I'm viewing this at the level of the individual because this is a thread about an individual. This isn't a thread about Rashford or Martial. It isn't a thread about Alex Scott. It isn't a thread about the classic racially-linked stereotypes or tropes that are used to denigrate or praise black players. - But it is now, isn't it? Due to a post made earlier bringing up the issue and you and others engaging with that post. If you didn't want to make a thing out of it then why make a thing out of it?
More specifically:
What I'll never be okay with is assuming people are racist just because they don't like a player. - Nobody was doing that, and I think you know that.
but if someone wants to think that I'll defend them for their opinion if someone calls them racist for thinking so. - But why? Maybe that person is racist? Vouch for yourself, when you vouch for the whole of redcafe and beyond I have to wonder why?
I don't understand why people come out of the woodwork and cry racism as the first line of defense of black players. - Wtf man? Is it the first line of defence? Who did this? Take a step back and read and analyse what you are writing...
Your second para answers your first. On redcafe people have to be more subtle with it. This doesn't mean that people should go around accusing posters of racism, but to me, it means that assuming that nobody is racist due to seeing no overt examples is either naïve or wishful thinking. But listen, that's what I think. Ya'll can think what you want but when I see posters go after another poster because he had the nerve to bring it up? I'ma pipe up...
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If we do keep Pogba, I want to see him rotated with Bruno more. Many teams in the past 6 months have at least contained Bruno - often double or triple-teaming him - and I'd love to see Ole acknowledge that, and let the Portuguese fall back into the centre circle, and let Pogba 'swap' into the more advanced position. If nothing else to confuse teams who've set out with the man-marking idea.
Bit like having wingers swap sides to test full backs.
Bit like having wingers swap sides to test full backs.
Why would you assume I agree with every decision the club makes?
The difference here compared to Sanchez is that the club are attempting to correct a problem and make the most of a signing, we overpaid on wages for Sanchez before he kicked a ball, we’re not doing that here.
Nope x3. And bully for me.
Because they are all criticisms clearly not linked to racism. More importantly it does a disservice to the fight against racism and a disservice to well-intentioned and open discussion in this particular thread.
And that's the last I'm saying on it because this is a predictable and pointless little roundabout to detour the thread into.
From what I've read on this thread there hasn't been any incidents if racism aimed at Pogba, unless I've missed something.
Interestingly though some of the comments aimed at his agent have been unsavoury and can be construed as discriminatory if not outright racist. So calling him a "pizza muncher" or a "greaseball" etc.
It is disturbing, for me anyway, that nothing has been said about this by anyone (again unless I've missed it). Disturbing in the sense that because he is hated by pretty much all then does it make it ok? Whereas Paul divides opinion and those who are fans will maybe pick up any discriminatory comments (or even percieved ones).
Antinracism shouldn't be a sometimes issue, but an all time issue. Whether it's aimed at those we like or those we hate.
Interestingly though some of the comments aimed at his agent have been unsavoury and can be construed as discriminatory if not outright racist. So calling him a "pizza muncher" or a "greaseball" etc.
It is disturbing, for me anyway, that nothing has been said about this by anyone (again unless I've missed it). Disturbing in the sense that because he is hated by pretty much all then does it make it ok? Whereas Paul divides opinion and those who are fans will maybe pick up any discriminatory comments (or even percieved ones).
Antinracism shouldn't be a sometimes issue, but an all time issue. Whether it's aimed at those we like or those we hate.
You said an opinion that aligns with the club will always be more valid than those 'armchair pundits'.
Or does this statement only apply to certain situations that you personally agree with?
Yeah that's not on either.
Well that's great, easy to perceive it that way though. Thanks for clearing that up.
But you are speaking for posters you don't know. How in the world do you know that every criticism in this 99 page thread is limited to only those things and not seated in stereotypes or racism? To make this quick and not another one of those circular arguments, you don't know. You'd be silly to think you do if I'm being honest. Personally, in light of the conversations I've had on here and elsewhere over the last decade, I would not be playing down the possibility of a racism element.
As for the disservice argument you are making, feck off with that. The poster who brought it up (opening a dialogue and engaging with you) is not doing a disservice, I'm not doing a disservice, so who is? Disservice how exactly anyway?
Lets just move on...If he stays we'll lose him for nothing, I imagine Ole will use him on the left for the first few months while Rashford is out.
This is actually a fair cop, bit of a xenophobic slur that one. I'll stick to calling him a pig in a polo shirt.You posted that?
Just to be clear I wasn't picking you or any individual out. It was more making the point that we don't maybe see it as such if it's someone we dislike
This is true. Although, Raiola does come across as very greasy in his own way.
I'll stick to calling him a fatcake bastard and many other more imaginative insults.
Brilliant point to be fair to you. As you stated, some of the language used against Mino definatley has tones of racism to it, but untill you brought it up, how many on here have actually been pulled up by a mod or other users, myself included as I have seen such instances. The proof is in the pudding really, we have a long way to go in understanding and excluding all forms of racism and I don't think someone should be attacked for opening up a very valid discussion about whether negatives of Pogba has undertones of racism.
Running away from such dialogue or trying to sweep it under the rug as an "clearly not" racism with little evidence is the true disservice.
Okay, I get you now. Well, although I'm not naive enough to believe no racists are lurking amongst us, it's impossible to prove without evidence. If they are out there, then be consoled in the knowledge that the opinion of a racist is absolutely worthless, particularly one that is too cowardly to make their ignorance known. That said, it's probably unfair to accuse people of racism without evidence to support the claim.
In any case, United fans will openly rip into any player they see fit regardless of their skin colour or nationality. We tend to hate indiscriminatley, to our credit
It's xenophobic, not racism. For example, greaseball is a slur of Italians, or probably more accurately of Italian-Americans, deriving from greaser subculture. It could certainly be offensive to Italians. It's similar to calling an Irishman a paddy or a Scot a jock.
Don't even get me started on this one its another of my pet peeves going back to O'Shea and beyond. I think it's just a human thing but it does feel like United fans go overboard with it.Okay, I get you now. Well, although I'm not naive enough to believe no racists are lurking amongst us, it's impossible to prove without evidence. If they are out there, then be consoled in the knowledge that the opinion of a racist is absolutely worthless, particularly one that is too cowardly to make their ignorance known. That said, it's probably unfair to accuse people of racism without evidence to support the claim.
In any case, United fans will openly rip into any player they see fit regardless of their skin colour or nationality. We tend to hate indiscriminatley, to our credit
I give up with all these Pogba threads, its tiring and pointless debating, no one will move an inch either way. Will try to contribute to more positive threads. Thanks for those who did try to debate sensibly.
I said in this case the manager and club obviously agree with the fact we need him and haven’t gotten the best from him.
How is that relevant to feckin Sanchez ffs. Every transfer/player situation is different, the difference here is we are trying to keep the player. We couldn’t wait to get rid of Sanchez