Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[Mr Pigeon]

As above, it's partly Russia trying to drag this war back to the optics of 1945, but also referring to Ukrainians as Nazis is a casual anti-Ukrainian slur by Russia. The Ukrainian resistance fought alongside the Nazis against the Soviet Union during World War II, so that part of their history is complicated to put it lightly. What countries don't have a complicated relationship with parts of their history though? What countries don't have monuments to or symbols of things that many of us would rather were left in the past?

True enough. As an F1 fan I immediately think about the British fascist Mosley, and how years later his son managed to shake off the stain of his family name and turn it into one that's now known for car safety - saving countless lives. But the stain will always be there to some extent even if the descendants have done completely different things in their life.

If Russia really want to play the "your country used to do this/that" game then they're just as guilty as everyone else. What matters is what they do now, and right now all I see is Russia committing war crimes.

 

[Frosty]

BBC:

Leading Russian liberal newspaper Novaya Gazeta has sent an email to subscribers detailing threats it has received from the state media watchdog Roskomnadzor and requesting people vote on possible next steps.

Over the weekend, the regulator sent letters to a number of (remaining) independent media, demanding they delete material describing the conflict in Ukraine as a "war".

According to Roskomnadzor, the correct term is "military operation"; other terms that are apparently unacceptable are "invasion" and "aggression".

Novaya Gazeta asks its readers to vote on what the paper should do next - either “to continue our work under military censorship and implement the demands of the authorities” or “to cease our editorial operations until the end of the war”.

 

[Smores]

Those who could already did, others were subject to reprecussions.

Is it though? Territorial lines and integrity is staple of any countries constitution. It's not just people's hearts desire, but also strategic, cultural, economical etc. importance to the said country. Do you honestly belive 97% wanted to join Russia? there was a rough 50/50 vote that sparked euromaidan, but apparantely a whole region doesn't want to be in Ukraine, but not even a whiff comes out of it until russians point it out?
Wherever you're from, would you be OK with part of your country joining your most aggressive neighbour, when your countrymen are getting shot trying to stabilize it? And then another part in couple of years? And maybe another one in couple? Who do you think seized control of Crimea in 2014? Peasants with pitchforks? Held back these ukrainians, who now are shitting on russian advancing army?

Too many questions for me to answer there.

I don't think land should be owned on an historical precedence because we've seen countless wars over the ambiguity of ownership and i don't see history affording rights to impose will. The people who take up home in any place should decide for themselves in a free manner and under no influence of threat, it's obviously never that simple and needs working through but that's the principle i'd stand behind. I'm against suppression of secessionism as i am oppression by military takeover, although the latter is obviously much worse than the former.

I've no idea if Crimea at this stage want to join Russia or reform with Ukraine, hopefully if Russia withdraws completely Ukraine do let them have that choice.

 

[TMDaines]

And to reiterate my point — the “referendum” was done with Russian military on the ground and it can’t be considered legitimate by any means. I guess we’ll never know how this referendum would’ve gone legitimately but it all indicate towards a landslide victory for the pro-Russian contingent. I think only Crimean tatars were against the idea out of the significant ethnic/cultural/social groups on the peninsula.

The Crimean referendum was a complete farce @harms. I'm surprised you posted this. It was done with Russian occupying forces, it did not have legitimate international observers, and there was no option on the ballot to simply "remain" and maintain the status quo. From Wikipedia:

There were two choices to choose from on the ballot. Voters were able to choose only one of these. The choices reflected the following stances:

Choice 1: Do you support the reunification of Crimea with Russia with all the rights of the federal subject of the Russian Federation?
Choice 2: Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?
The referendum's available choices did not include keeping the status quo of retaining arrangements enacted by the 1998 Constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Additionally, the second choice, is unclear because there were two revisions of the Crimean constitution in 1992. The original 1992 constitution was adopted together with a declaration of independence, but parliament then amended the constitution one day later to affirm that Crimea "was a part of Ukraine".

Many commentators, including The New York Times, Kyiv Post, and Fox News argued that both choices would result in de facto independence.

Absolutely polling in the past had showed a strong preference to either take on greater independence or to join Russia, but when Russia did what it did, it failed the Crimean people by ensuring that Crimea will never have legitimate means to self-determine their future. I've no idea how this issue is ever solved now.

 

[led_scholes]

My feeling is that if there is no systematic oppression, people of a country can decide to go independent only if the current country allows them. That's why despite I support Catalonia's independence, I think that Spain has the right to keep Catalonia for example. There is pretty much no oppression there.

I don't have a good understanding of Ukrainian politics to know if Crimea and Donbas region were discriminated. I don't think that just wanting to leave is a reason in itself, cause then it never stops and we go back to having 10000 tribes in Europe.

Saying that, I think at this stage it is irrelevant. Crimea is a part of Russia now, so I don't expect this to change even if Russia gets a pro-Western leader. I think it is more complicated for Donbas, but I do not think it can get back to becoming part of Ukraine. The important part IMO is for this to end as soon as possible. I guess best case scenario might be for Ukraine to be neutral military-wise in a new deal with Russia and US/EU/NATO, but join the EU. Russia then won't claim to be threatened and Ukraine will prosper economically.

Oh absolutely. I m not in favor of Catalan independence, because it just creates more borders. But if the Catalans do really want to be independent, who am I to judge it? Unfortunately, there is no quantative or qualitative way to measure oppression.

 

[ShoePolish]

Again then. What claim did Kosovo had for independence? Or any state in history for independence? By your argument Latvia should have never left the German Empire.

I'll be honest, I'm not entirely educated on Kosovo - Serbia situation, and am researching on it as our discussion goes on, but Serbia formed following Yugoslavias break up, drafted a constitution, that Kosovo disagreed with as they didn't want to be part of Serbia. That's a different scenario, as a majority tried to take over a minorities territory, after a break up of a former state union, when lines of new countries were drawn. If 2006 serbian constitution was acknowledged by the UN (can't find a valid report it was), then yes, they have no right for independence.
That's what I tried to say, historically, no country had a claim on any territory, everything was changing all the time, depending who had stronger military. That's why we have international laws in place now, that accepts and supports countries right to it's bound territory right now. If we start ignoring those laws, we're going back to medieval times, where everything is free game.
What argument did I make to base that claim again, bit confused on the last part?

 

[harms]

The Crimean referendum was a complete farce @harms. I'm surprised you posted this. It was done with Russian occupying forces, it did not have legitimate international observers, and there was no option on the ballot to simply "remain" and maintain the status quo. From Wikipedia:

Which is exactly what I've said (and @Raoul seconded). You can't have a legit referendum with "polite people" with guns "securing" every voting booth. And that referendum wasn't legit.

My point was on what an actual referendum would've been like (which makes your comparison with Ireland a bit off).

 

[TMDaines]

I guess these are linked?

 

[IWat]

As above, it's partly Russia trying to drag this war back to the optics of 1945, but also referring to Ukrainians as Nazis is a casual anti-Ukrainian slur by Russia. The Ukrainian resistance fought alongside the Nazis against the Soviet Union during World War II, so that part of their history is complicated to put it lightly. What countries don't have a complicated relationship with parts of their history though? What countries don't have monuments to or symbols of things that many of us would rather were left in the past?

Even their Police vans look like they're from the 1970s

 

[shamans]

You can put a mirror infront of every country and find issue you know depending on how far you pick to look back. Where are you from may I ask?

No you can't. There are some glaring hypocrisies in the world that doesn't involve twisting a story.

It's a bigger crisis because its a nuclear superpower invading a European country. You cant really be surprised that European and Western media cares more about such an unprecedented and potentially world defining event than a civil war in the Middle East.

Caring about it is different from forming actual opinions such as this being unprecedented or "more severe" than other incidents. It's a bigger deal because it's actual Europeans?

Not long ago Trever Noah was running skits on India and Pakistan headed to war. Two nuclear powers. It's just less human for the west when the rest do it because they are probably used to it.

 

[TMDaines]

Which is exactly what I've said (and @Raoul seconded). You can't have a legit referendum with "polite people" with guns "securing" every voting booth. And that referendum wasn't legit.

My point was on what an actual referendum would've been like (which makes your comparison with Ireland a bit off).

Agreed, I was focussing more on process than sentiment. Not sure there is a perfect analogy.

 

[IWat]

No you can't.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Just found a sect or pro-Putin weirdos from Ireland on a sub on reddit.

Jesus, the depth of human depravity and stupidity never ceases to amaze does it ?

Imagine these fecking idiots, probably growing up in Castletownbere or somewhere like. Completely separate from all of this. Now, hunched over their keyboard, foaming at the mouth, spreading their bile. No actual concept of what's going on, just grown up being a contrarian and that's all they have. Facking hell. You'd just want to smack the pricks.

 

[harms]

Even their Police vans look like they're from the 1970s

Hey, we have newer ones too!

 

[gorky_utd]

Good read here, explain why Russia invade Ukraine, and helps understand the whole situation and motives behind the invasion.

Great video. Basically putler is the military leader of the oligarchs. You have to feel for the Ukrainian people. They are losing everything while caught between superpowers.

 

[IWat]

Hey, we have newer ones too!

That actually looks pretty swish in fairness. Keep yourself safe!

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Hey, we have newer ones too!

That's a Winnebago!

 

[VorZakone]

So Finland's PM announced they will send weapons too? Bold move considering they're not a NATO-member as of this moment.

 

[harms]

That actually looks pretty swish in fairness. Keep yourself safe!

Yeah, our police vans are our national pride, the symbol of Russia moving into a clean, modern future.

 

[Beans]

I spent some time in Crimea a couple of years before the 2014 invasion and was struck by how Russian the culture and identity was there. Had there been a legit referendum, I think the Crimeans would've probably selected Russia (just not by the farcical numbers as in Putin's "referendum at gunpoint"). Even if Russia were to become a Democracy, I think there will still be considerable interest in retaining Crimea, which IIRC even Navalny is a proponent of.

Polls at the time showed that while those people preferred Russian identity to Ukrainian, they wanted to be independent, not part of Russia.

 

[led_scholes]

I'll be honest, I'm not entirely educated on Kosovo - Serbia situation, and am researching on it as our discussion goes on, but Serbia formed following Yugoslavias break up, drafted a constitution, that Kosovo disagreed with as they didn't want to be part of Serbia. That's a different scenario, as a majority tried to take over a minorities territory, after a break up of a former state union, when lines of new countries were drawn. If 2006 serbian constitution was acknowledged by the UN (can't find a valid report it was), then yes, they have no right for independence.
That's what I tried to say, historically, no country had a claim on any territory, everything was changing all the time, depending who had stronger military. That's why we have international laws in place now, that accepts and supports countries right to it's bound territory right now. If we start ignoring those laws, we're going back to medieval times, where everything is free game.
What argument did I make to base that claim again, bit confused on the last part?

We have international laws since 1648. Just because there is a treaty X that states that territory Y should be owned by entity A, for me this is not an eternal commitment.

So, in Latvia I m sure there was a treaty somewhere assigning the territory to the German empire. Does it mean that Latvian people should have stayed forever under German rule? Or for example: Crimea was transferred under soviet rule in 1954? Was that legal? In 1991, when Crimeans were asked, they stated they wanted to be part of Russia. Now, let's go to Latvia. If I m not mistaken, you demanded independence during the 80s. How would you feel, if instead of having the independence you wanted, the Russians would say: nope sorry, we have a constitution that says you are part of soviet union, you can't leave.

 

[Mihai]

Obviously the democratically elected President of Ukraine, Jewish descendant of Holocaust survivors, is a Nazi and needs to be replaced with the only non-Nazi available which is a man called Pladimir Vutin who wears a fake moustache and has a face like a toddler who's drawn eyes on a potato too close together.

Describe Lukashenko without saying Lukashenko.

 

[botond]

any news on what happened on the talks ?

 

[Raoul]

 

[The Firestarter]

any news on what happened on the talks ?

Explosions in Kiev right after.

 

[matt10000]

My feeling is that if there is no systematic oppression, people of a country can decide to go independent only if the current country allows them. That's why despite I support Catalonia's independence, I think that Spain has the right to keep Catalonia for example. There is pretty much no oppression there.

I don't have a good understanding of Ukrainian politics to know if Crimea and Donbas region were discriminated. I don't think that just wanting to leave is a reason in itself, cause then it never stops and we go back to having 10000 tribes in Europe.

Saying that, I think at this stage it is irrelevant. Crimea is a part of Russia now, so I don't expect this to change even if Russia gets a pro-Western leader. I think it is more complicated for Donbas, but I do not think it can get back to becoming part of Ukraine. The important part IMO is for this to end as soon as possible. I guess best case scenario might be for Ukraine to be neutral military-wise in a new deal with Russia and US/EU/NATO, but join the EU. Russia then won't claim to be threatened and Ukraine will prosper economically.

Yes solution has to make it appear that Putin has saved face in some way to stop his toys coming outnof his pram.

Historically the east side of Ukraine has a lot closer ties with Russia as Stalin aent loads of Russians there. The West side has been assoicated with Poland/Europe a lot more. I can see Ukraine being split with certain east regions independent of ukraine and pro russian and west side remain ukraine but with promises not to join NATO or something. Putsie isnlosing but a cornered wounded animal can be dangerous sonfor the sake of peace have to givehim something to save face.

Cuban missle crises was same, in the end US had to promise something in return to de escalate it

 

[BluesJr]

Every time I read "Putler" I die a little bit inside. How has there not been any news on the talks?!

 

[LARulz]

Ukraine joining the EU is surely World War 3? I can't see Putin stopping and going back with his tail between his legs, only way I see him going is in the event of a takeover from within or an all out assault to go swinging. Could also mean Putin turns up the heat in the next day or so to make sure they don't get a chance to officially join

If Ukraine joined then everyone has to officially get involved. I don't get it to be honest, not sure how that would end things anymore peacefully

Maybe I am just seeing it wrong because whilst Ukraine joining the EU in general is logical, the timing feels like it's asking for more trouble

 

[Cardboard elk]

l

So Finland's PM announced they will send weapons too? Bold move considering they're not a NATO-member as of this moment.

The prepper nation is always prepared for Russia. They have a strong mentality. I do not think Finland fears an invasion atm. It would cost Russia too much, just like in ww2.

 

[Raoul]

Every time I read "Putler" I die a little bit inside. How has there not been any news on the talks?!

Probably because there's nothing significant to report. If there was, it would very big news.

 

[IWat]

No you can't. There are some glaring hypocrisies in the world that doesn't involve twisting a story.



Caring about it is different from forming actual opinions such as this being unprecedented or "more severe" than other incidents. It's a bigger deal because it's actual Europeans?

Not long ago Trever Noah was running skits on India and Pakistan headed to war. Two nuclear powers. It's just less human for the west when the rest do it because they are probably used to it.

And you think we don't take the piss out of ourselves? Or is that something that is banned where you live?

 

[Lay]

I know he’s a bit of a weirdo but Bald and Bankrupt’s latest video showing him and other Ukrainians flee Ukraine is worth watching. I’ve only seen half of it so far but the Ukrainians seemed a hell of a lot calmer than I would be

 

[sullydnl]

 

[Revan]

Yes solution has to make it appear that Putin has saved face in some way to stop his toys coming outnof his pram.

Historically the east side of Ukraine has a lot closer ties with Russia as Stalin aent loads of Russians there. The West side has been assoicated with Poland/Europe a lot more. I can see Ukraine being split with certain east regions independent of ukraine and pro russian and west side remain ukraine but with promises not to join NATO or something. Putsie isnlosing but a cornered wounded animal can be dangerous sonfor the sake of peace have to givehim something to save face.

Cuban missle crises was same, in the end US had to promise something in return to de escalate it

Exactly. Ukraine giving Donbas and Crimea (as in, a Security Council resolution voting it), making a deal with Russia and US/NATO that guarantees their defense (similar to Budapest one) in exchange for their military neutrality, with a clear short path to EU, IMO is the least painful solution.

Not what Ukraine wants, but they get a very good deal considering the current situation, and it gives Putler the ability to sell it home as 'we prevented genocide in Donbas, extended Russia's territory and we will be forever safe with Ukraine never joining NATO).

 

[fergieisold]

Not a fan of some of the anti western sentiment purely because of our own poor behaviour. We all know the west has been complicit in very questionable practices when it comes to military action - but that’s not a reason to lend legitimacy to what Putin is doing now.

 

[sullydnl]

 

[cyberman]

Exactly. Ukraine giving Donbas and Crimea (as in, a Security Council resolution voting it), making a deal with Russia and US/NATO that guarantees their defense (similar to Budapest one) in exchange for their military neutrality, with a clear short path to EU, IMO is the least painful solution.

Not what Ukraine wants, but they get a very good deal considering the current situation, and it gives Putler the ability to sell it home as 'we prevented genocide in Donbas, extended Russia's territory and we will be forever safe with Ukraine never joining NATO).

I keep seeing this but Russia aren’t asking for Ukrainian territories so why are people so quick to give them away?

 

[TMDaines]

Anyone else surprised that Russian civic society hasn’t quite melted down, given all the sanctions? Are they going to take a long time to really bite?

 

[BluesJr]

Surely this is not the move that's going make Russia back down?!

 

[MoskvaRed]

I could see the outline of a potential deal along the lines of:

1. Donbass stays part of Ukraine but with Catalunya-style regional autonomy, including as to language
2. Crimea stays with Russia subject to a confirmatory referendum and, in any event, a long-term lease of Sevastopol
3. Ukraine moves towards EU accession
4. Ukraine stays neutral for military alliance purposes but NATO (or US, UK, France, Germany, Poland) and Russia jointly guarantee the territorial integrity of Ukraine

That sounds roughly fair (not perfect) and allows Ukraine, the West and Russia each to spin it as relative success.

However, the problem is that Putin has destroyed any remaining vestige of credibility and it seems the West (even Germany) has finally moved past the point where they see any possibility of a working relationship with him. The West can continue to try squeeze Russia to encourage a palace coup in Moscow but, in the meantime, it’s Ukraine in the meat grinder as its citizens get killed or forced out and its infrastructure gets smashed up. There is no easy answer right now unfortunately.