Mauricio Amadaeus Pochettino | Chelsea sack watch

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I'm pretty sure that I clearly stated that he contributed. The point isn't to tell you that Pochettino is a bad a manager or that he is good, that would be silly. The point is that he isn't a winner and that he has been in a position to win regularly and didn't.

I feel that I need to make that point almost everyime in this thread, I have always rated Pochettino as a manager and was heavily behind his hiring in 2016 but at some point we can't ignore the fact that he hasn't been a winner. Personally I don't see it as a deal breaker because I would happily use him as a bridge head coach since I trust his ability to raise the floor of his teams but by now I'm pretty sure that he isn't a winner and doesn't raise the ceiliing of his teams.

Well, I agree with that.

However; its not the same with all posters, its either Yes he is the man and he will be very good, he will improve players and win stuff to he is bad manager, he cant win anything.

I think every manager coming to this club is a risk. The only reason I see Poch as a decent option is because he came in at Southampton, got them playing his way, went to Spurs and did the same, improving loads of players.

However; at PSG, like almost every manager at United, he cannot get his message across to the players because of player power.

I dont care which manager we get, if Ronaldo, Rashford do not want to put a shift, it will be the same fate for any manager coming in.

The thing what I know Poch can do is, if we get players that are not the best in the world, he can work with them. His midfield was Wanyama and Dembele and they were really strong in there. We need something like that, its not just the managerial position that is key this summer.
 
You can talk about this quality of players, who brought the players together and bind it together? Poch.

You talking as if Son, Kane are oap's, they are 29 so very much so in their prime, if you ask some they say 27 onwards is the prime, Conte has Kane and Son in their prime.
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Right, we will see how many trophies Conte wins, unless he leaves, which means he realises Spurs aint winning anything.
He didn't bind it together though, they didn't win anything, he may have brought them together, but that's the point I'm trying to make. The objective is to win something, I'm not asking him to win the league, he should have won something. Fecking Arteta even won an FA cup with an average Arsenal, Rodgers with Leicester, Ranieri won the league with Leicester, Poch has no pedigree when it comes to winning anything and it's a huge concern.

I'm not saying they're over the hill, but most people would expect us to win something if we had a 24 year old Kane and Son, I don't see why Poch is immune from the criticism because of Conte not winning something in his first season at the club, when they're 4 years older than when they had their best seasons.

Ultimately if our goal of our hire is to bring someone in to try and improve us and get us back to a regular top 4 team, then Poch is the best man for the job. I think we should be trying to aim at someone who has potential to go further than that, who is more forward thinking in how they play, which could potentially lead us to winning something. I genuinely would have little hope of us winning any silverware under Poch, but that's not to say he wouldn't improve us, we don't look like winning anything for a long time anyway.
 
He didn't bind it together though, they didn't win anything, he may have brought them together, but that's the point I'm trying to make. The objective is to win something, I'm not asking him to win the league, he should have won something. Fecking Arteta even won an FA cup with an average Arsenal, Rodgers with Leicester, Ranieri won the league with Leicester, Poch has no pedigree when it comes to winning anything and it's a huge concern.

I'm not saying they're over the hill, but most people would expect us to win something if we had a 24 year old Kane and Son, I don't see why Poch is immune from the criticism because of Conte not winning something in his first season at the club, when they're 4 years older than when they had their best seasons.

Ultimately if our goal of our hire is to bring someone in to try and improve us and get us back to a regular top 4 team, then Poch is the best man for the job. I think we should be trying to aim at someone who has potential to go further than that, who is more forward thinking in how they play, which could potentially lead us to winning something. I genuinely would have little hope of us winning any silverware under Poch, but that's not to say he wouldn't improve us, we don't look like winning anything for a long time anyway.

Lets put it into context.

Spurs were never a trophy winning side, Poch is a big part of why they think they are a top tier club, he raised expectations at the club. If you ask a Spurs fan, what period was their best football? they'd say Poch.

So that means he is a good coach right?

Obviously I am not deluded to thinking he will win us the league or something but at this moment in time, I would like to see improvement, consistency and then obviously win trophies. Also, would he be more desirable if he won a carling cup? I don't know. Without having final winning experience, it does create a doubt, 100%.

However; I cannot think of a manager that I will have 100% confidence in winning us a trophy with the current culture, players and set up.
 
The work he done at Southampton and Tottenham is forgotten then?

No - not by reasonable people.

The latter will take that as evidence that he was, at that point/those points, a very good/promising manager.

The question was always whether he could cut it at the highest level, with the highest expectations.

Winning Ligue 1 won't convince anyone - that's just the reality of the situation. Nobody will consider that anything but par for the course.

More importantly, though - people do watch his PSG team. They aren't impressed. We have several PSG fans on here who watch every game - and who direct much of the same criticism towards Poch that Ole got by United fans: there is no proper cohesion, no consistently well executed game plan, the wins are down to individual brilliance, etc.

ETA And this is - also - in clear contrast to Tuchel: a manager (or head coach) who did stamp his mark on the team, who did have them play consistently according to a game plan, etc.
 
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No - not by reasonable people.

The latter will take that as evidence that he was, at that point/those points, a very good/promising manager.

The question was always whether he could cut it at the highest level, with the highest expectations.

Winning Ligue 1 won't convince anyone - that's just the reality of the situation. Nobody will consider that anything but par for the course.

More importantly, though - people do watch his PSG team. They aren't impressed. We have several PSG fans on here who watch every game - and who direct much of the same criticism towards Poch that Ole got by United fans: there is no proper cohesion, no consistently well executed game plan, the wins are down to individual brilliance, etc.

Winning Ligue 1 will make no change for me. Losing it, a different thing.

That is the question, can he cut it at the highest level? Well, that question applies to ETH too.

I do see that from the PSG team, there is no method to their play, there is no style, I agree.

I won't lie, its a difficult decision for the club, any appointment is a massive risk.
 
Poch has won the French cup and is going to win Ligue 1. He has also come 2nd in both the PL and CL. Those are good accolades. All this talk of not being a winner reminds me of how Tuchel was viewed by the experts before Chelsea.

Put him in the right situation and he'll win, same with Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, and every other manager. Without City's structure would Pep dominate the PL to the extent he has? And in fact, even with Bayern and City's structure he hasn't won the CL yet after Barcelona. Same with Klopp, just 2 major trophies in how many years now?

Winning trophies isn't easy, nor is it a given for even the topmost managers. No idea why that is suddenly the minimum standard for a man who until recently had Spurs as his biggest club managed.
 
No - not by reasonable people.

The latter will take that as evidence that he was, at that point/those points, a very good/promising manager.

The question was always whether he could cut it at the highest level, with the highest expectations.

Winning Ligue 1 won't convince anyone - that's just the reality of the situation. Nobody will consider that anything but par for the course.

More importantly, though - people do watch his PSG team. They aren't impressed. We have several PSG fans on here who watch every game - and who direct much of the same criticism towards Poch that Ole got by United fans: there is no proper cohesion, no consistently well executed game plan, the wins are down to individual brilliance, etc.

On that part I know that many will frame it as because it's ligue 1 but the reality is that it applies to all managers managing actual top teams. Few people consider Valverde or Kovac differently after their stints with Barcelona and Bayern despite winning the league. They did the minimum expected.

When it comes to managers, they are only considered top managers or special when they overachieve, win regularly and/or win this style.
 
I won't lie, its a difficult decision for the club, any appointment is a massive risk.

No doubt.

For me, it's - still - all about what happens behind the scenes.

I'm not looking for a brilliant "head coach". I'm looking for a brilliant person capable of hiring that coach.
 
Lets put it into context.

Spurs were never a trophy winning side, Poch is a big part of why they think they are a top tier club, he raised expectations at the club. If you ask a Spurs fan, what period was their best football? they'd say Poch.

So that means he is a good coach right?

Obviously I am not deluded to thinking he will win us the league or something but at this moment in time, I would like to see improvement, consistency and then obviously win trophies. Also, would he be more desirable if he won a carling cup? I don't know. Without having final winning experience, it does create a doubt, 100%.

However; I cannot think of a manager that I will have 100% confidence in winning us a trophy with the current culture, players and set up.
Spurs aren't a trophy winning side, but for example Juande ramos still managed to get them a trophy at least. Ok sure he raised expectations and that's fantastic, but I do think actually winning something is a springboard for future performances and consistently missing out on trophies has it's own effect too.

He is a good coach, there is no denying that, but there are lots of good coaches out there without those doubts of final winning experience. I'm struggling to phrase this well, but I'd rather gamble on someone with potential and inexperience in those moments (in England and CL at least), than someone with that experience to some how be better in those situations next time. Does that make sense? I agree we won't find someone who will give us that confidence, so I think we have to be bolder in our decisions and Poch is not a bold decision. Also, I'd have the horrible feeling he'd try and convice us to shell out on Kane, which again is a boring and short term move with it's own doubts.
 
They did the minimum expected.

Yes - and, realistically, a fairly unexceptional coach can clearly win domestic titles in certain leagues if the circumstances are favourable.

An actually incompetent coach can't, of course - the competition in both France and Germany is more than good enough to punish actual incompetence. It can even punish a good coach if the circumstances are not favourable.

So, winning Ligue 1 isn't something any idiot can do just by turning up.

What we're talking about here is genuine excellence, though (of the sort that makes people stand up and pay attention).

It's analogous to Ole's stint at United: the people who actually considered him utterly incompetent vastly underestimated how difficult it is to manage/coach a top club - and were completely wrong, not to say idiotic, in their overall assessment of him - but they still had a point when they deemed him not good enough.
 
Well, he will most likely win the French league. yet, people will use the excuses "its the French league, anyone can win that with PSG",

The work he done at Southampton and Tottenham is forgotten then?
The thing is, it's been 5 years since he had an impressive season. 2016/17 and 17/18 were his best seasons with Spurs probably. 18/19 he fluked his way to a CL final, but fair enough they did make it that far, but they were really bad in the league that year and just played poorly with the decline already starting. And it's not like he was a perfect candidate before his last season at Spurs anyway.

We know what he is and we know what he is not. A manager to potentially rival Klopp, Pep or even Tuchel he is not.
 
Yes - and, realistically, a fairly unexceptional coach can clearly win domestic titles in certain leagues if the circumstances are favourable.

An actually incompetent coach can't, of course - the competition in both France and Germany is more than good enough to punish actual incompetence. It can even punish a good coach if the circumstances are not favourable.

So, winning Ligue 1 isn't something any idiot can do just by turning up.

What we're talking about here is genuine excellence, though (of the sort that makes people stand up and pay attention).

It's analogous to Ole's stint at United: the people who actually considered him utterly incompetent vastly underestimated how difficult it is to manage/coach a top club - and were completely wrong, not to say idiotic, in their overall assessment of him - but they still had a point when they deemed him not good enough.

I totally agree with you. I just tried to highlight why I thought this point was true. In the case of Pochettino unless he somehow shows something that he has never showed up to this point, whoever sign him will sack him because he isn't able to compete with the best managers for silverware.
 
Not really. Liverpool already had an excellent structure in place, all they needed was a top manager to push on. One that wouldn't actively fight said structure either

But you make a good observation. Maybe you do have a good structure in place too now, and it's just a matter of getting a top manager. Doesn't look like it though...
I know you might want this to be true so even if United did get a world class manager we'd still be shit, but it's just not true. Liverpool were incredibly poorly run and one of the laughing stocks of the PL before Klopp. Their structure was garbage. City were a good team before Guardiola but he made them a juggernaut. Alex Ferguson was United manager while the Glazers were in charge yet continued winning till his retirement, the Glazers are a poison but trophies can clearly be won under them, we even won a CL under them, we just keep appointing the wrong people.
 
I totally agree with you. I just tried to highlight why I thought this point was true. In the case of Pochettino unless he somehow shows something that he has never showed up to this point, whoever sign him will sack him because he isn't able to compete with the best managers for silverware.

Yep - exactly.

As far as I'm concerned Pochettino is a good coach. Nothing he has done at PSG indicates otherwise. It's not an easy job to begin with.

But - and this is obviously the point - he hasn't shown anything anywhere which indicates that he's anything more than a...good coach. Which is nice and all - but why should United hire a fairly ordinary - in the grand scheme of things - "good coach"?

If we had a clear advantage in terms of resources over our rivals - sure. Hiring a "good coach" would make sense. We'd win the league with a "good coach".

We don't have such an advantage, though. Not anymore.

If we have a genuine ambition to win the league, it makes far more sense to gamble on Ten Hag (who may possess exceptional qualities) than going for a "good coach" (who has pretty much demonstrated by now that he doesn't have exceptional qualities).
 
Yep - exactly.

As far as I'm concerned Pochettino is a good coach. Nothing he has done at PSG indicates otherwise. It's not an easy job to begin with.

But - and this is obviously the point - he hasn't shown anything anywhere which indicates that he's anything more than a...good coach. Which is nice and all - but why should United hire a fairly ordinary - in the grand scheme of things - "good coach"?

If we had a clear advantage in terms of resources over our rivals - sure. Hiring a "good coach" would make sense. We'd win the league with a "good coach".

We don't have such an advantage, though. Not anymore.

If we have a genuine ambition to win the league, it makes far more sense to gamble on Ten Hag (who may possess exceptional qualities) than going for a "good coach" (who has pretty much demonstrated by now that he doesn't have exceptional qualities).
Phrased it much better than I could, but my senitments exactly.
 
Yep - exactly.

As far as I'm concerned Pochettino is a good coach. Nothing he has done at PSG indicates otherwise. It's not an easy job to begin with.

But - and this is obviously the point - he hasn't shown anything anywhere which indicates that he's anything more than a...good coach. Which is nice and all - but why should United hire a fairly ordinary - in the grand scheme of things - "good coach"?

If we had a clear advantage in terms of resources over our rivals - sure. Hiring a "good coach" would make sense. We'd win the league with a "good coach".

We don't have such an advantage, though. Not anymore.

If we have a genuine ambition to win the league, it makes far more sense to gamble on Ten Hag (who may possess exceptional qualities) than going for a "good coach" (who has pretty much demonstrated by now that he doesn't have exceptional qualities).

I would go for Ten Hag over Poch but I'm not sure its really this cut-and-dried.

The counter-argument to this bit about a good coach versus an exceptional one is that you don't actually need an exceptional manager to win the league, we've just been going through a bizarre period (that is soon to end) where the two best managers of the last 15 years have been in the league and also at the head of teams that are probably in top five all time in the PL, so our perspective is a little skewed by their level.

In the immediate pre-Guardiola/Klopp period, the title was won by Antonio Conte, Claudio Ranieri, late stage Jose Mourinho, Manuel Pelligrini, Fergie, and Roberto Mancini. Only Ferguson and maybe Conte could be termed exceptional.

It's great to have an exceptional manager, but its also important to have a good one. With a good manager you can win the title if you have enough resources and get enough other things right as a club (obviously that last part has been a struggle for United recently). If you don't have even a good manager - and I would say that Ole is a prime example of this - then you don't have a prayer really.

I would still go with Ten Hag because I'm pretty confident that he is at least a good manager, with a small chance of being exceptional. But I really disagree with the notion that hiring Poch means never ever winning anything, especially given that United's next rebuilding cycle (under any manager) is going to take a couple years anyway and by that time Guardiola and Klopp are quite likely to be gone.
 
I would go for Ten Hag over Poch but I'm not sure its really this cut-and-dried.

The counter-argument to this bit about a good coach versus an exceptional one is that you don't actually need an exceptional manager to win the league, we've just been going through a bizarre period (that is soon to end) where the two best managers of the last 15 years have been in the league and also at the head of teams that are probably in top five all time in the PL, so our perspective is a little skewed by their level.

In the immediate pre-Guardiola/Klopp period, the title was won by Antonio Conte, Claudio Ranieri, late stage Jose Mourinho, Manuel Pelligrini, Fergie, and Roberto Mancini. Only Ferguson and maybe Conte could be termed exceptional.

It's great to have an exceptional manager, but its also important to have a good one. With a good manager you can win the title if you have enough resources and get enough other things right as a club (obviously that last part has been a struggle for United recently). If you don't have even a good manager - and I would say that Ole is a prime example of this - then you don't have a prayer really.

I would still go with Ten Hag because I'm pretty confident that he is at least a good manager, with a small chance of being exceptional. But I really disagree with the notion that hiring Poch means never ever winning anything, especially given that United's next rebuilding cycle (under any manager) is going to take a couple years anyway and by that time Guardiola and Klopp are quite likely to be gone.

But surely you can see that they all won before winning in the PL and in the case of Ranieri he joined a bottom half club. If United were a bottom half team expecting to not get relegated then someone like Ranieri would make sense.
 
But surely you can see that they all won before winning in the PL and in the case of Ranieri he joined a bottom half club. If United were a bottom half team expecting to not get relegated then someone like Ranieri would make sense.

The fact remains that most of those guys would be classified as good but not particularly exceptional managers.

There is this bizarre notion on the forum that the only way to win trophies in the PL now is to have a manager that is the equal of Klopp and Guardiola. That's just an unrealistic bar, since they are the best managers of the last 15 years, and its also probably going to become an irrelevant bar fairly soon. We'll see what actually happens but Pep has talked about leaving after next year and Klopp in summer 2024.

Poch will never be Guardiola or Klopp but is he any worse a manager than Pelligrini, Ranieri, late stage Jose Mourinho, or Mancini? I don't think so unless your criteria is just the tautological one of "have they won a major trophy."
 
The fact remains that most of those guys would be classified as good but not particularly exceptional managers.

There is this bizarre notion on the forum that the only way to win trophies in the PL now is to have a manager that is the equal of Klopp and Guardiola. That's just an unrealistic bar, since they are the best managers of the last 15 years, and its also probably going to become an irrelevant bar fairly soon. We'll see what actually happens but Pep has talked about leaving after next year and Klopp in summer 2024.

Of course they would which is why the doubts over Pochettino are warranted. He is considered better while having shown far less or at best as much as they have.
 
I would go for Ten Hag over Poch but I'm not sure its really this cut-and-dried.

The counter-argument to this bit about a good coach versus an exceptional one is that you don't actually need an exceptional manager to win the league, we've just been going through a bizarre period (that is soon to end) where the two best managers of the last 15 years have been in the league and also at the head of teams that are probably in top five all time in the PL, so our perspective is a little skewed by their level.

In the immediate pre-Guardiola/Klopp period, the title was won by Antonio Conte, Claudio Ranieri, late stage Jose Mourinho, Manuel Pelligrini, Fergie, and Roberto Mancini. Only Ferguson and maybe Conte could be termed exceptional.

It's great to have an exceptional manager, but its also important to have a good one. With a good manager you can win the title if you have enough resources and get enough other things right as a club (obviously that last part has been a struggle for United recently). If you don't have even a good manager - and I would say that Ole is a prime example of this - then you don't have a prayer really.

I would still go with Ten Hag because I'm pretty confident that he is at least a good manager, with a small chance of being exceptional. But I really disagree with the notion that hiring Poch means never ever winning anything, especially given that United's next rebuilding cycle (under any manager) is going to take a couple years anyway and by that time Guardiola and Klopp are quite likely to be gone.

Your point - as I take it - is fair enough: the landscape changes all the time, and it is certainly possible that a less-than-exceptional manager could win the Premier League once Pep and/or Klopp is gone - or simply when said landscape has changed a bit.

However...the Premier League is currently going from strength to strength in terms of attracting the best of the best - players and managers. It seems unlikely to change for the time being - football moves in cycles, on all sorts of levels, but currently the PL is both a) very strong and b) still on the rise, really, certainly not in decline.

United - meanwhile - are certainly not very strong. Nor on the rise - if we are, it's very well hidden.

For us, here and now, I maintain that it makes far more sense to gamble on a potentially brilliant manager (who has something beyond the ordinary - an X factor, if you will) - rather than going for someone who would be good enough if our relative standing compared to the competition (City, Liverpool, Chelsea) was anything like it used to be.

The reality is we might have an edge on Liverpool in terms of resources - but nothing indicates we're better run than them. And they have an exceptionally good manager.

We don't have any kind of edge on City in terms of resources - and they also have an exceptionally good manager.

We might also have an edge on Chelsea in terms of resources (let's disregard the most recent developments - we don't know where that will lead eventually) - but they also have a manager who is, at least, well beyond just "good".

There is absolutely nothing which - at the moment - indicates that United, in our current state, will have a snowflake's chance in hell of going up against those three teams with Pochettino in charge next season.

So, based on your reasoning (which I don't disagree with, as such) - if we do hire him, we have to rely on factors beyond him. We need our rivals to become weaker, basically.

We might even need the league itself to weaken, or more precisely decline in overall standing or status - making it less likely that City and/or Liverpool (nevermind Chelsea...or other teams, Newcastle before too long) will attract an exceptional manager once Pep/Klopp moves on.

In short - the idea that United can win the league with a good, but not particularly brilliant, manager in the foreseeable future seems very unlikely to me.

You could say that it's unlikely regardless of who we end up hiring - but that sort of reinforces the point: if we are to stand a chance, it seems likely that we'd need something (someone) out of the ordinary to do so.
 
Your point - as I take it - is fair enough: the landscape changes all the time, and it is certainly possible that a less-than-exceptional manager could win the Premier League once Pep and/or Klopp is gone - or simply when said landscape has changed a bit.

However...the Premier League is currently going from strength to strength in terms of attracting the best of the best - players and managers. It seems unlikely to change for the time being - football moves in cycles, on all sorts of levels, but currently the PL is both a) very strong and b) still on the rise, really, certainly not in decline.

United - meanwhile - are certainly not very strong. Nor on the rise - if we are, it's very well hidden.

For us, here and now, I maintain that it makes far more sense to gamble on a potentially brilliant manager (who has something beyond the ordinary - an X factor, if you will) - rather than going for someone who would be good enough if our relative standing compared to the competition (City, Liverpool, Chelsea) was anything like it used to be.

The reality is we might have an edge on Liverpool in terms of resources - but nothing indicates we're better run than them. And they have an exceptionally good manager.

We don't have any kind of edge on City in terms of resources - and they also have an exceptionally good manager.

We might also have an edge on Chelsea in terms of resources (let's disregard the most recent developments - we don't know where that will lead eventually) - but they also have a manager who is, at least, well beyond just "good".

There is absolutely nothing which - at the moment - indicates that United, in our current state, will have a snowflake's chance in hell of going up against those three teams with Pochettino in charge next season.

So, based on your reasoning (which I don't disagree with, as such) - if we do hire him, we have to rely on factors beyond him. We need our rivals to become weaker, basically.

We might even need the league itself to weaken, or more precisely decline in overall standing or status - making it less likely that City and/or Liverpool (nevermind Chelsea...or other teams, Newcastle before too long) will attract an exceptional manager once Pep/Klopp moves on.

In short - the idea that United can win the league with a good, but not particularly brilliant, manager in the foreseeable future seems very unlikely to me.

You could say that it's unlikely regardless of who we end up hiring - but that sort of reinforces the point: if we are to stand a chance, it seems likely that we'd need something (someone) out of the ordinary to do so.

That is very well spelled out and argued on your part. I agree that Ten Hag would be the better choice and largely because of the same line of reasoning. I just don't think Poch would necessarily be a disaster or resign United to five more years in the wilderness. Reading some of the commentary on here you'd think hiring Poch was just about the worst mistake a club could ever make. Yet this is a club that just had Ole, past it Mourinho, past it LVG, and Moyes.
 
I like how PSG having so many great players is used as an excuse for him failing.

Crazy isn’t it?

At Spurs : “He’s overachieving with a squad that isn’t that good and limited resources! How can you expect him to win anything there?”

At PSG: “There are too many good players! Too much money! Too much pressure! How can you expect him to win anything there?”
 
I rewatched the game and there's a few observations to be made, things maybe Pochettino could/should have done to try and change the dynamic...

I do have one question for the french league followers on here @JPRouve @Oly Francis @Sayros what is going on with Wijnaldum? Is he unsettled? Problem with the city, family, anything? Or just a problem with the team/club/manager? Because honestly, PSG were crying for him in the second half. And not just after the 1-1 either, game had changed from the start of the half, PSG couldn't relieve the pressure and couldn't even break out in transition. Donnarumma's mistake obviously was a turning point, but i'm not sure we wouldn't have scored anyways. We were well on top and getting into dangerous areas pretty frequently by that point. I would add one of Neymar or Messi should also have come off for Di Maria, but I get the problem with that goes beyond the manager.

To be honest, i'm coming around to thinking this isn't on Pochettino...i think this PSG side might genuinely be overrated. Specifically the front 3. More specifically Messi and Neymar - they're just redundant together and hurt the team more than they help, for reasons beyond the usual "they don't defend" (yes they don't. This wouldn't be such an issue if they weren't the sort of players that kind of need their team to be dominant. Or if you could bench/sub one of them without having to worry about repercussions. Or if they weren't basically the same player...)
 
To be honest, i'm coming around to thinking this isn't on Pochettino...i think this PSG side might genuinely be overrated. Specifically the front 3. More specifically Messi and Neymar - they're just redundant together and hurt the team more than they help, for reasons beyond the usual "they don't defend" (yes they don't. This wouldn't be such an issue if they weren't the sort of players that kind of need their team to be dominant. Or if you could bench/sub one of them without having to worry about repercussions. Or if they weren't basically the same player...)

People were expecting them to be something like the second coming of the MSN but from what I've seen seems like the team functions better when Di Maria is starting. Mbappe should be undropabble and that leaves one of Neymar or Messi out in order for PSG to be able to play at their best but I also don't know what has been the problem with Wijnaldum, as on paper he should solve a lot of the problems of this PSG side.
 
People were expecting them to be something like the second coming of the MSN but from what I've seen seems like the team functions better when Di Maria is starting. Mbappe should be undropabble and that leaves one of Neymar or Messi out in order for PSG to be able to play at their best but I also don't know what has been the problem with Wijnaldum, as on paper he should solve a lot of the problems of this PSG side.
Not sure they function better per se(but they probably do), but certainly they can function much longer. Di Maria is a workhorse, an elite ball carrier and playmaker in his own right, and he just doesn't stop. Messi and Neymar kind of stopped playing in the second half, stopped popping up between the lines to knit play and help their ball progression and retention and grew increasingly isolated, which basically left the other 7 to fend for themselves for an entire half of football. And on top of that they looked gassed and had no spark even those few times they did get the ball - PSG had two dangerous attacks in the second half and Neymar and Messi ruined both(1 each) with lazy plays. Messi in particular looks like he only has one half of football in his legs anymore

I am glad they didn't hire Zidane last summer. This is a team meant for a manager of stars
 
I rewatched the game and there's a few observations to be made, things maybe Pochettino could/should have done to try and change the dynamic...

I do have one question for the french league followers on here @JPRouve @Oly Francis @Sayros what is going on with Wijnaldum? Is he unsettled? Problem with the city, family, anything? Or just a problem with the team/club/manager? Because honestly, PSG were crying for him in the second half. And not just after the 1-1 either, game had changed from the start of the half, PSG couldn't relieve the pressure and couldn't even break out in transition. Donnarumma's mistake obviously was a turning point, but i'm not sure we wouldn't have scored anyways. We were well on top and getting into dangerous areas pretty frequently by that point. I would add one of Neymar or Messi should also have come off for Di Maria, but I get the problem with that goes beyond the manager.

To be honest, i'm coming around to thinking this isn't on Pochettino...i think this PSG side might genuinely be overrated. Specifically the front 3. More specifically Messi and Neymar - they're just redundant together and hurt the team more than they help, for reasons beyond the usual "they don't defend" (yes they don't. This wouldn't be such an issue if they weren't the sort of players that kind of need their team to be dominant. Or if you could bench/sub one of them without having to worry about repercussions. Or if they weren't basically the same player...)
I have no answer personally for Wijnaldum. He honestly, from looking on the outside, looks terrified to be on the field. It’s the strangest thing. He actively runs away from the ball. He touched it in the single digits in a half when PSG dominated possession, as a central midfielder, it’s almost unheard of and blows the Lukaku stay away to me.
He’s just been a complete disappointment and it seems like he has no clear idea of what to do and how to fit in with the rest of the squad.
What hurt PSG, besides their loser mentality rearing its ugly head again, was when Paredes went off and Idrissa came in. The midfield was managing Madrid completely until that changed happened.
Wijnaldum simply wouldn’t have been a positive if he came on because he is absolutely lost and looks borderline amateurish. Confidence really can make or break a player and he’s completely devoid of it ever since he’s come to PSG.
 
What hurt PSG, besides their loser mentality rearing its ugly head again, was when Paredes went off and Idrissa came in. The midfield was managing Madrid completely until that changed happened.
They really weren't though. Good defending in the box and Asensio's...the word that comes to mind here is obscene..."performance" were keeping us from scoring, but we were on top of your defence pretty much every 5 seconds. The sub actually didn't do anything. You had a good spell of possession after it when we got kind of confused for a minute whether to press or wait, besides that, you couldn't really string 3 passes together the entire half. Paredes or not. Frankly speaking, tactically this game was about two things - your front 3's ability to find space between the lines to help move the ball out of your half + break in transition vs our lack of organization. We didn't really fix the latter, but your front 3 faded badly in the second half so it didn't matter in the end

Wijnaldum simply wouldn’t have been a positive if he came on because he is absolutely lost and looks borderline amateurish. Confidence really can make or break a player and he’s completely devoid of it ever since he’s come to PSG.
Liverpool's Wijnaldum would have seen the game out for you. Ultimatelt the failure of this transfer cost you the tie
 
He would have been right choice in 2019/2020. Is Poch right choice in 2022 I'm not sure, but it's either him or ten Hag it seems. In 2023 we'd probably go for Enrique before those 2.
 
The hard truth is that you can't win anything with a dysfunctional squad no matter how good the players are individually. I don't think anyone could have made that PSG squad into winners any more than our squad can be made into winners.

The worry with Poch is that he was willing to humour that nonsense. Might he do the same for the Glazers?
 
They really weren't though. Good defending in the box and Asensio's...the word that comes to mind here is obscene..."performance" were keeping us from scoring, but we were on top of your defence pretty much every 5 seconds. The sub actually didn't do anything. You had a good spell of possession after it when we got kind of confused for a minute whether to press or wait, besides that, you couldn't really string 3 passes together the entire half. Paredes or not. Frankly speaking, tactically this game was about two things - your front 3's ability to find space between the lines to help move the ball out of your half + break in transition vs our lack of organization. We didn't really fix the latter, but your front 3 faded badly in the second half so it didn't matter in the end


Liverpool's Wijnaldum would have seen the game out for you. Ultimatelt the failure of this transfer cost you the tie

Until Donnarumma's mistake, PSG was clearly dominating the game toying with Real at times. Real was not even able to touch the ball for minutes despite mad press and already seemed to accept the game was over.
Other than the first 10 minutes, PSG never felt threatened. If not for that stupid mistake, PSG would probably score the second. Real should be thankful to Donnarumma and epic collapse of the defensive unit after that goal.
 
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He would have been right choice in 2019/2020. Is Poch right choice in 2022 I'm not sure, but it's either him or ten Hag it seems. In 2023 we'd probably go for Enrique before those 2.

Yup, at this point I feel there are better options. He should either had gone to Real Madrid or Manchester United but after his PSG stint there are several doubts about his ability to manage big egos; which is required to manage big clubs. I mean PSG is a circus but some responsabilty should lie on him.
 
They really weren't though. Good defending in the box and Asensio's...the word that comes to mind here is obscene..."performance" were keeping us from scoring, but we were on top of your defence pretty much every 5 seconds. The sub actually didn't do anything. You had a good spell of possession after it when we got kind of confused for a minute whether to press or wait, besides that, you couldn't really string 3 passes together the entire half. Paredes or not. Frankly speaking, tactically this game was about two things - your front 3's ability to find space between the lines to help move the ball out of your half + break in transition vs our lack of organization. We didn't really fix the latter, but your front 3 faded badly in the second half so it didn't matter in the end


Liverpool's Wijnaldum would have seen the game out for you. Ultimatelt the failure of this transfer cost you the tie
Disagreed on both counts. Midfield severely changed after Paredes went out. Him, Veratti, Messi were relieving a lot of pressure to transition the defense to attack and kept Madrid mostly at bay after the first 10m or so. Gueye couldn't replicate that as his role is very different.

And it's not Wijnaldum's failed transfer that cost them the tie, though it would have been nice that it did, but it's quite clearly a mental collapse. PSG managed just fine without him in the first game and were doing just fine in the return leg as well, Madrid was more threatening in the return leg (hard not to do better than that baffling first leg performance), but I never felt they were in control of the game until PSG collapsed on their own following the first goal, the midfield was stringing way more than 3 passes together for a while and were more or less in control; as much as I want to forget this game I do remember that much. It all went out the window after Benzema's first goal.
 
Disagreed on both counts. Midfield severely changed after Paredes went out. Him, Veratti, Messi were relieving a lot of pressure to transition the defense to attack and kept Madrid mostly at bay after the first 10m or so. Gueye couldn't replicate that as his role is very different.
No. This was the first half. In the second half, until the goal, you crossed the halfway line with the ball *literally* 4 times in total. In 15 minutes. You weren't relieving anything, you couldn't keep the ball at all. Mbappé had to drift wider and wider to present an outlet himself because Neymar and especially Messi disappeared. You were holding on. Doing a good job of it, but that's what you were doing at that point. It was like the first 10 minutes of the game, but worse

And it's not Wijnaldum's failed transfer that cost them the tie, though it would have been nice that it did, but it's quite clearly a mental collapse.
I mean, obviously. What I mean is, with Wijnaldum you would have seen the game out imo. You wouldn't have struggled quite so much to keep possession and I think you would have done a better job of getting the game back under control. The second goal was criminal tbh. We can talk about mental collapse, which happened for sure, but you also faded MASSIVELY physically

PSG managed just fine without him in the first game and were doing just fine in the return leg as well
Yes. I would argue Madrid not being good had a lot to do with that, but sure. Right until you didn't, at which point you really needed a player like him

Madrid was more threatening in the return leg (hard not to do better than that baffling first leg performance), but I never felt they were in control of the game until PSG collapsed on their own following the first goal,
You didn't collapse after the first goal, you collapsed after the second goal

the midfield was stringing way more than 3 passes together for a while and were more or less in control; as much as I want to forget this game I do remember that much. It all went out the window after Benzema's first goal.
You had exactly one spell of prolonged possession in the entire half, and it happened after the 1-1 and the sub. Maybe it was tiredeness, maybe you figured you could just defend the result, either way you didn't really do anything besides defending your box in the second half. The goals changed the energy more than anything
 
Freak result after playing some great football for the majority of 2 legs.

Typical PSG how many times do they throw away a European lead?
every year, I look at them and say they won't win the CL. Said the same about City for years - last year was the first time I felt they'd win it (think so again this year)
 
Well, he will most likely win the French league. yet, people will use the excuses "its the French league, anyone can win that with PSG",

The work he done at Southampton and Tottenham is forgotten then?
did he really do that much at those two? Played some nice football at times but we need a proven winner otherwise we might as well go back to Moyes who has done the same thing with West Ham
 
No. This was the first half. In the second half, until the goal, you crossed the halfway line with the ball *literally* 4 times in total. In 15 minutes. You weren't relieving anything, you couldn't keep the ball at all. Mbappé had to drift wider and wider to present an outlet himself because Neymar and especially Messi disappeared. You were holding on. Doing a good job of it, but that's what you were doing at that point. It was like the first 10 minutes of the game, but worse


I mean, obviously. What I mean is, with Wijnaldum you would have seen the game out imo. You wouldn't have struggled quite so much to keep possession and I think you would have done a better job of getting the game back under control. The second goal was criminal tbh. We can talk about mental collapse, which happened for sure, but you also faded MASSIVELY physically


Yes. I would argue Madrid not being good had a lot to do with that, but sure. Right until you didn't, at which point you really needed a player like him


You didn't collapse after the first goal, you collapsed after the second goal


You had exactly one spell of prolonged possession in the entire half, and it happened after the 1-1 and the sub. Maybe it was tiredeness, maybe you figured you could just defend the result, either way you didn't really do anything besides defending your box in the second half. The goals changed the energy more than anything
I guess the game affected my reading comprehension, I was discussing the whole game when you were talking only the second half. Focusing just on the second half, it was obviously bad after the first goal, you can say we collapsed after the second, but I already felt a change after the first one and the second and third came in quick successions. Until then, all you could hear were the PSG fans, Madrid was lively but didn't seem like they were going anywhere and the crowd was out of the game for the most part by then. It all changed after that first goal.

I get what you're saying about an ideal Wijnaldum, but I think it's completely pointless to discuss what potentially a player could have done that currently doesn't exist currently in Wijnaldum. We may as well been screaming for prime Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta, maybe those three would have prevented the collapse, but a prime Wiji? Maybe, but it's irrelevant right now. It's sad to see, but he's not even a shadow of his former self right now, he's simply in a Freaky Friday situation when he must have changed bodies with a seagull or something. I know there's some contenders out there for biggest flop transfers these past few years, but I will submit Wijnaldum's case against anybody out there. He has simply forgotten how to play football at PSG and is completely devoir of any confidence. A tight game at the Bernabeu would have been a disaster and he just can't be counted on right now unfortunately. I hope it changes but there's already talks of him going out on loan with an option to buy.
 
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