Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Lemoor said:
My understanding is that what happened since 2014 was in massive part possible, because Ukrainian army was in a completely derelict state. They had to take every help they were offered and even then Russia didn't have to allocate massive resources (especially in current context) to regularly gain ground.
I don't really see how those tactics would result in anything but a meat grinder for Russia now.
And that's obviously ignoring that sentiments in Ukraine are completely different to the ones that were there in 2014 and international community will probably be less lenient with accepting Russian bullshit as excuses. I'm not sure if restarting is a viable option for Russia at all.
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Also, 2014 insurgencies were followed by mass defections of russian backers in Ukrainian armed forces. IIRC, their Black sea admiral defected and most of their troops stationed in Crimea, which made russian Crimea tactic possible. Likely, ukrainians made steps to make sure this does not happen again.
 
VorZakone said:
Haven't the French already come out and said that was never suggested to the Ukrainians?
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The reports i've read in France are actually unclear. It said that Macron told Zelinisky that they needed to find diplomatic solutions so Russia doesn't feelt humiliated. Maybe those reports were incomplete but I didn't read anything mentionning the fact that he suggested for Ukraine to give up part of its territory.

The Elysée made a statement saying that Macron never discussed anything like that with Putin and that it was for Ukraine to decide the terms of this negociaiton, that's pretty much it.
 
Just as an aside, the portuguese neonazis I mentioned many pages ago, who went to ukraine to fight for them were sent back to portugal after arriving in ukraine, with the ukranian ambassador saying ukraine doesn't need people like them.
 
Oly Francis said:
The reports i've read in France are actually unclear. It said that Macron told Zelinisky that they needed to find diplomatic solutions so Russia doesn't feelt humiliated. Maybe those reports were incomplete but I didn't read anything mentionning the fact that he suggested for Ukraine to give up part of its territory.

The Elysée made a statement saying that Macron never discussed anything like that with Putin and that it was for Ukraine to decide the terms of this negociaiton, that's pretty much it.
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I have never read about the winning side of a war conceding something to a losing side just for the sake of avoiding humiliation at any moment in History. Just the possibility that the topic has been raised is silly in itself. If Russia ends up getting fecked, they get fecked. Something more than military hardware and soldiers will be lost.

I'm still waiting for a Battleship Potemkin mutiny moment.
 
Oly Francis said:
That's not occupation, in the name or not. But that's not even the point (because semantics set aside, we pretty much know what the situation was there). The way the Ukrainian governement was handling the situation in this area was simply not working and they'll have to handle the Azov/nationalist issue once the war is over. The compromise the made back in 2014 was just unsustainable and the "you'll commit war crimes i'll commit war crimes" situation isn't tolerable.
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No they don't have to deal with that at all :lol: jesus christ.

These men and woman are literally, right now, putting their lives on the line to fight against the very personification of Nazi facisim, and may well not survive it. If it was true what the Russian trolls like to ram down the world's throats every minute of every day, they would have switched sides long ago.

Even worse case we'd be talking about max 500 openly far right Ukraine 'Nazi' out of a pre-war soldier count of 200k+. It is a total and utter zero non-factor in the scheme of things, anything you hear otherwise is indeed Russian propaganda, it is low hanging fruit given Azov's roots.
 
Oly Francis said:
Dombas wasn't occupied by Russia since 2014. The likely fueled and organized the separatists but that's it.
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Hahahahahha :lol:

The whole thing kicked off because of Russian involvement and they only have been able to hold any territory because of Russian forces. Next you will tell me Crimea wasn’t seized by Russian forces either.
 
TMDaines said:
Hahahahahha :lol:

The whole thing kicked off because of Russian involvement and they only have been able to hold any territory because of Russian forces. Next you will tell me Crimea wasn’t seized by Russian forces either.
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That was not even remotely the point and I won't adress this topic here anymore since it seems people would rather keep this thread for current event news.
 
Oly Francis said:
That was not even remotely the point and I won't adress this topic here anymore since it seems people would rather keep this thread for current event news.
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The whole point was parts of the Donbas have been occupied by and because of Russians since 2014. The entire military conflict there was provoked and driven by Russian nationals – and said Russian nationals have been entirely open about that.
 
TMDaines said:
The whole point was parts of the Donbas have been occupied by and because of Russians since 2014. The entire military conflict there was provoked and driven by Russian nationals – and said Russian nationals have been entirely open about that.
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What about the coup in 2014? And who financied it?
 
4bars said:
What about the coup in 2014? And who financied it?
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What the absolute feck are you talking about? Apparently someone should have told my friends and family who went out onto the streets that they were supposed to get paid…

The only reason the protests turned to a revolution that saw Yanukovych flee the country and lose the presidency was because he insisted on continually escalating the situation. Once you are willing to openly beat and kill people protesting your policies and decision making, you better ensure you have the resolve to see it through. Instead the coward fled to Russia once he realised he had bitten off more than he could chew.

There was zero expectation of Yanukovych being ousted when those first people took to the streets in early 2014.
 
TMDaines said:
What the absolute feck are you talking about? Apparently someone should have told my friends and family who went out onto the streets that they were supposed to get paid…

The only reason the protests turned to a revolution that saw Yanukovych flee the country and lose the presidency was because he insisted on continually escalating the situation. Once you are willing to openly beat and kill people protesting your policies and decision making, you better ensure you have the resolve to see it through. Instead the coward fled to Russia once he realised he had bitten off more than he could chew.

There was zero expectation of Yanukovych being ousted when those first people took to the streets in early 2014.
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Even if the CIA was there, it's clearly not easy to get people whipped up like that for BS reasons, or the US would still control Iran.

I think in this instance most people would say whatever help the CIA was able to provide was moral. But trying to stop war like we're seeing in Ukraine is a big part of the reason groups like the CIA end up doing clearly questionable things, which is seen as a lesser evil than war. I'm certainly looking at it all with a bit more understanding, seeing the horrors that Russia has unleashed.
 
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Beans said:
Even if the CIA was there, it's clearly not easy to get people whipped up like that for BS reasons, or the US would still control Iran.

I think in this instance most people would say whatever help the CIA was able to provide was moral. But trying to stop war like we're seeing in Ukraine is a big part of the reason groups like the CIA end up doing clearly questionable things, as is seen as a lesser evil than war. I'm certainly looking at it all with a bit more understanding, seeing the horrors that Russia has unleashed.
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Getting real tired of people downplaying the agency of Ukrainian people. Really tired of it. It’s not a board game of Twilight Struggle.
 
TMDaines said:
Getting real tired of people downplaying the agency of Ukrainian people. Really tired of it. It’s not a board game of Twilight Struggle.
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There’s pretty good documentary on Netflix that captures these events from Ukrainian people perspective for less acquainted. The CIA and getting paid parts are obviously laughable.
 
Rajma said:
There’s pretty good documentary on Netflix that captures these events from Ukrainian people perspective for less acquainted. The CIA and getting paid parts are obviously laughable.
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It’s in my queue, going to watch it. Thanks.
 
I wonder if Russian media will report Ukraine's winning the Eurovision Song Contest - and if so how they will spin it.
 
Rajma said:
There’s pretty good documentary on Netflix that captures these events from Ukrainian people perspective for less acquainted. The CIA and getting paid parts are obviously laughable.
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In a country as big as Ukraine we are supposed to believe that a legitimate regime was thrown out by the CIA against the will of the population (circa 40 Millions citizens). And that population was somehow manipulated into “supporting the coup”. :eek:
 
Pintu said:
In a country as big as Ukraine we are supposed to believe that a legitimate regime was thrown out by the CIA against the will of the population (circa 40 Millions citizens). And that population was somehow manipulated into “supporting the coup”. :eek:
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Has this lunacy been propagated by Russian TV?
 
The Russia-Ukraine war has stirred strong feelings in Europe. In my opinion, this is also obvious in this year's Eurovision contest. The votes show not only how good a song is, but what "feelings" the Europeans have towards the various countries.

This year's results are interesting:

1. First place, Ukraine with 631 points.
2. Second place, England with 466 points.
25. Dead last place, Germany with only 6 points.

(For Germany, 2 points from Austria, 2 points from Switzerland, and 2 points from Estonia. )

https://eurovisionworld.com/eurovision/2022

Okay, the song was not great but still... What do you think?
 
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Carolina Red said:
Who else thought they’d bought the farm when the camera got knocked over?
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4bars said:
And im getting tired of see people being so naive and that everything is white and black and that as russia has no right to do this fecked up invasion, think that US had been stirring the pot as had always done with the japanese, in south america and middle east. US government cant be happier of what ia going on

And if you cant see it well, your problem. US stir the pot before 2014 investing billions. As in many other places. Geopolitics they call it and ukranians are paying the price of being in the middle of the game of thrones
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There’s a thread for this. It ain’t this one.
 
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