Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

NotThatSoph said:
Again, I've shown you this before. Source is still COMTRADE.

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Link please. I don't trust random pictures from the internet.
 
frostbite said:
But you don't have a link?
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The link? It's a database, I gave you the database.You can check it yourself. Or, you can use something like tradingeconomics to check each country, like e.g. Greece, and then you can check other countries to compare. I did that for you.
 
One thing to note with all these economic statistics being posted, they are all from pre- February 24th, they don't show what each country has done to cut down money flows to Russia after the latest invasion. We will have to wait until next year for the 2022 statistics, to get a better idea of who is doing what.
 
Here are some numbers. I don't know if these numbers are correct, but I have a link. Germany is the clear leader at 24 billion.

https://beyond-coal.eu/russian-fossil-fuel-tracker/

GERMANY
Total spent on Russian fossil fuels: €24116m (data for 2019)
Coal: €1562m
Oil: €14641m
Gas: €7913m

GREECE
Total spent on Russian fossil fuels: €3636m (data for 2019)
Coal: €22m
Oil: €2924m
Gas: €690m

NETHERLANDS
Total spent on Russian fossil fuels: €13489m (data for 2021)
Coal: €441m
Oil: €11683m
Gas: €1365m

AUSTRIA
Total spent on Russian fossil fuels: €2093m (data for 2019)
Coal: €118m
Oil: €219m
Gas: €1757m

ITALY
Total spent on Russian fossil fuels: €14304m (data for 2021)
Coal: €738m
Oil: €3771m
Gas: €9795m

FRANCE
Total spent on Russian fossil fuels: €8173m (data for 2019)
Coal: €347m
Oil: €5685m
Gas: €2140m
 
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frostbite said:
German apologists en masse. It is sad. If you really care about Germany's honor, you should be the first to demand that Germany takes a leadership position in this war. It is the first major war in Europe after WW2 and Germany can be the leader of the good guys!
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Mate, your comment on the Netherlands just proves how ignorant you are regarding this whole topic.

I, too, wished Germany and especially Scholz would be more determined. But unfortunately, there's no point in discussing it with you.
 
And one word about "per capita":

If Malta is the greatest importer per capita of Russian fuel and China is the lowest, does this mean that Malta is the Russian enabler and China is innocent?
 
Zehner said:
Mate, your comment on the Netherlands just proves how ignorant you are regarding this whole topic.

I, too, wished Germany and especially Scholz would be more determined. But unfortunately, there's no point in discussing it with you.
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Which one is "ignorant"? That I consider the German and the Netherland politics about the same (concerning both Southern Europe and Ukraine-Russia) and that the Netherlands are not very important in the EU when compared to Germany? Do you really disagree with this opinion?
 
frostbite said:
And one word about "per capita":

If Malta is the greatest importer per capita of Russian fuel and China is the lowest, does this mean that Malta is the Russian enabler and China is innocent?
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That's such a stupid argument. Of course a country with more people needs more gas. If you have the highest carbon emissions per capita in the world, you obviously have to lower that, too, even if you're low on population. Especially coming from somebody who's been all over Germany from the very beginning, this is just hypocrisy of the highest order.
 
frostbite said:
Which one is "ignorant"? That I consider the German and the Netherland politics about the same (concerning both Southern Europe and Ukraine-Russia) and that the Netherlands are not very important in the EU when compared to Germany? Do you really disagree with this view?
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Yes, because both are sovereign countries with elected governments completely independent of each other. Ironically, even if unintended, your words are a bit reminiscent of how people thought of Ukraine as an extension of Russia. It is disrespectful to not treat sovereign countries for what they are.
 
frostbite said:
And let me add that, in my opinion, Putin is an autocrat who came to power with popular vote and he really reminds me of Hitler. This is one of the reasons that I'd expect Germans to be extra sensitive about this war and become the LEADERS in helping Ukraine beat Russia. The leaders! Not Netherlands, not Italy, not France, not UK, not USA. Germany should be the leaders in this, exactly because of their history.
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Yeah you see that's the problem... After Hitler the whole country was reeducated to not to want war. "The world" can't complain that a country doesn't really join a war when it has made this country to not want to join a war.

Nonetheless we Germans should do more, but I always think it's funny that people demand Germany to be a military superpower who just a few years ago feared a strong German military.

And directed at you @frostbite : why don't you demand that your goverments for example gives some of your German built U212 submarines to Ukraine? They surely would have a field day hunting down the Russian Black Sea Fleet
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
If the Japanese government managed to make a u-turn and finally stick the 2 fingers up to the OTT homegrown anti-nuclear uproar after Fukushima, it shouldn't be that hard for the German government to reactivate their own nuclear power plants. Better that than relying on coal (THAT is the epitome of stupid) and other foreign fossil fuels.

Those so-called Greens have betrayed the environment by supporting a return to coal rather than going for a far easier option that would reduce dependence on polutting sources of energy, especially Russian oil and gas.
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Nuclear power plants only help with electricity. The Russian gas is mainly used for heating.

https://www.politico.eu/article/gas-crisis-germany-nuclear-power-debate/
 
stefan92 said:
Yeah you see that's the problem... After Hitler the whole country was reeducated to not to want war. "The world" can't complain that a country doesn't really join a war when it has made this country to not want to join a war.

Nonetheless we Germans should do more, but I always think it's funny that people demand Germany to be a military superpower who just a few years ago feared a strong German military.

And directed at you @frostbite : why don't you demand that your goverments for example gives some of your German built U212 submarines to Ukraine? They surely would have a field day hunting down the Russian Black Sea Fleet
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Well, I always believed that to hate Hitler and all that he represents should also mean to stop any Hitlers from gaining power in other places in Europe. Isn't that reasonable? Just sitting aside doing nothing is a form of complicity, isn't it? After all, Hitler rose to power and caused the death of millions only because too many decent people did nothing.


And please stop with Greece, it is silly. Greece has major problems with Turkey (including daily air space violations), Greece is still trying to get out of the 2010 bankruptcy, Greece is too small to help Ukraine in any meaningful way. It is really absurd for Germans today to point to Greece, and expect Greece to lead them! As you say, it is Germany who builds submarines, not Greece. Germany should be offering its submarines to Ukraine, because Germany does not face any dangers today.

https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2022/04/27/turkey-record-violations-greece-airspace/"

"Turkish F-16 fighter jets recorded on Wednesday a record of 126 violations of Greek air space and 30 overflights of Greek islands some of them inhabited."
 
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Zehner said:
That's such a stupid argument. Of course a country with more people needs more gas. If you have the highest carbon emissions per capita in the world, you obviously have to lower that, too, even if you're low on population. Especially coming from somebody who's been all over Germany from the very beginning, this is just hypocrisy of the highest order.
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But that's how politics work. Germany has 80 million people, and that's why it has a lot of political power in the EU. If Germany in 1945 was split into 10 Germanies, and they were not allowed to re-unify, they would not have as much political power today and we wouldn't talk about them.

With political power you also have responsibility. Malta does not have the same political power, it also does not have the same political responsibility. That's why nobody talks about what Malta thinks about the Russian invasion. Per capita is important in a "moral sense" for individuals. Per capita is meaningless in international politics.
 
the hea said:
The 16% used for electricity is still quite a lot of gas and with the shutting down of the remaining nuclear plants, Germanys dependency on coal and gas for generating electricity will only increas, at least in the short term.
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I don't disagree that is massively stupid of Germany to shut down it's remaning powerplants, its just that it reopening them won't have as much an impact as some posters here want to believe.

" Thirdly, fuel for the reactors would have to be purchased taking up more time and, most importantly, "nuclear power plants produce 6 percent of electricity and, according to various studies, can only replace 1 percent of gas consumption," Kemfert concluded."
 
frostbite said:
Well, I always believed that to hate Hitler and all that he represents should also mean to stop any Hitlers from gaining power in other places in Europe. Isn't that reasonable? Just sitting aside doing nothing is a form of complicity, isn't it? After all, Hitler rose to power and caused the death of millions only because too many decent people did nothing.


And please stop with Greece, it is silly. Greece has major problems with Turkey (including daily air space violations), Greece is still trying to get out of the 2010 bankruptcy, Greece is too small to help Ukraine in any meaningful way. It is really absurd for Germans today to point to Greece, and expect Greece to lead them! As you say, it is Germany who builds submarines, not Greece. Germany should be offering its submarines to Ukraine, because Germany does not face any dangers today.

https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2022/04/27/turkey-record-violations-greece-airspace/"

"Turkish F-16 fighter jets recorded on Wednesday a record of 126 violations of Greek air space and 30 overflights of Greek islands some of them inhabited."
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Ok, mabey not militarily.
But how about stopping the shady dealings of the greek shipping and tanker industry with russian oil?
You know actually stop to fund the russian war machine?

https://www.businessinsider.com/gre...t-from-transporting-russian-oil-report-2022-6
https://www.tradewindsnews.com/tank...cord-as-tanker-transfers-increase/2-1-1223272
 
Correcting me if I'm wrong but Russia is trying to occupy by destroying, pillaging, killing and bombarding mostly Russian speaking areas in east and southeast. I read somewhere that in Mariupol people mostly spoke Russian and lot of them were pro Russian. Probably it's not that simply but it is absurd.

Of course they're causing havoc in the entire country by sending devastating rockets and trying to destroy the whole infrastructure but their main thrust is in the east.
 
Real Name said:
Correcting me if I'm wrong but Russia is trying to occupy by destroying, pillaging, killing and bombarding mostly Russian speaking areas in east and southeast. I read somewhere that in Mariupol people mostly spoke Russian and lot of them were pro Russian. Probably it's not that simply but it is absurd.

Of course they're causing havoc in the entire country by sending devastating rockets and trying to destroy the whole infrastructure but their main thrust is in the east.
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It's one of the more puzzling aspects for me. Whoever was pro-Russian in the south and east might wanna rethink their beliefs.
 
frostbite said:
Well, I always believed that to hate Hitler and all that he represents should also mean to stop any Hitlers from gaining power in other places in Europe. Isn't that reasonable? Just sitting aside doing nothing is a form of complicity, isn't it? After all, Hitler rose to power and caused the death of millions only because too many decent people did nothing.


And please stop with Greece, it is silly. Greece has major problems with Turkey (including daily air space violations), Greece is still trying to get out of the 2010 bankruptcy, Greece is too small to help Ukraine in any meaningful way. It is really absurd for Germans today to point to Greece, and expect Greece to lead them! As you say, it is Germany who builds submarines, not Greece. Germany should be offering its submarines to Ukraine, because Germany does not face any dangers today.

https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2022/04/27/turkey-record-violations-greece-airspace/"

"Turkish F-16 fighter jets recorded on Wednesday a record of 126 violations of Greek air space and 30 overflights of Greek islands some of them inhabited."
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Most western countries are doing far from nothing. We'd like to see Germany do more but at the moment they are at Russia's mercy economically until they become far independent of Russian oil and gas which is something that takes time. Like I said earlier, it's easy thump your chest when you have nothing to lose by doing so. And in case your wondering I'm not German although my username sounds like it.

Also Hitler was steamrolling Europe. Putin has lost 25% of his fighting force to sit on parts of Eastern and southern Ukraine. He's failed in all his major objectives. If he strikes at Nato countries he won't stand a chance.
 
Putin goes to a famous Russian medium that reads the future, and asks him when he is going to die.

- The same day as the greatest Ukrainian State Holiday.
- Are you sure? asks Putin.
- Yes, I am 100% sure, the medium answers!

Putin pulls out a gun, points it to the medium and tells him:

- Tell me how you know this, or else you are dead.
- Well, it is simple, answers the medium. Any day you die it will become the greatest Ukrainian State Holiday!
 
frostbite said:
But that's how politics work. Germany has 80 million people, and that's why it has a lot of political power in the EU. If Germany in 1945 was split into 10 Germanies, and they were not allowed to re-unify, they would not have as much political power today and we wouldn't talk about them.
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That's what you missed about our history - not becoming a true military power was a condition for the reunification. Especially the UK feared a new dawn of German superpower ambitions and promises to reduce our military were necessary to be able to become a souveign state again and finally get rid of the occupation rules in 1990.
 
stefan92 said:
That's what you missed about our history - not becoming a true military power was a condition for the reunification. Especially the UK feared a new dawn of German superpower ambitions and promises to reduce our military were necessary to be able to become a souveign state again and finally get rid of the occupation rules in 1990.
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Lets be honest here. While all of this is true. It is not the reason for the piss poor state of the german armed forces, the Bundeswehr. The reason for that is, that Germany thought it could have armed forces on the cheap, and spent the money on other things, while enjoying the "peace dividend" and the security umbrella provided by the United states.
 
Gehrman said:
Most western countries are doing far from nothing. We'd like to see Germany do more but at the moment they are at Russia's mercy economically until they become far independent of Russian oil and gas which is something that takes time. Like I said earlier, it's easy thump your chest when you have nothing to lose by doing so. And in case your wondering I'm not German although my username sounds like it.
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While the economic interest in regards to energy imports are obviously one important factor to explain German policy, its hardly the only one. To reduce it to an economic question is missing a lot. The German military is weak especially when it comes to a lack of military equipment. People who follow the German military will know that this was a constant factor during the mission in Afghanistan. Its hard to overstate the extend of it. This isn't some kind of made up excuse. There is a cultural/historic hesitance to exacerbate, escalate or actively participate in a military conflict. e.g. Germany was one of the 5 nations, that abstained from voting in favor of the UN resolution 1973, that started the intervention in Libya. Germany certainly has a preference for multilateral diplomatic approaches.
Germany was involved in the Normandy Format (with France, Russia and Ukraine) since 2014 and tried to facilitate a solution. It failed and depending on one's view one might argue, that this was the wrong approach, but Germany was certainly invested in this.

Germany's policy toward the conflict is overall not that different compared to the policy of other European nations. As far as I can tell the USA hasn't shipped any modern tanks to Ukraine either...
 
frostbite said:
But that's how politics work. Germany has 80 million people, and that's why it has a lot of political power in the EU. If Germany in 1945 was split into 10 Germanies, and they were not allowed to re-unify, they would not have as much political power today and we wouldn't talk about them.

With political power you also have responsibility. Malta does not have the same political power, it also does not have the same political responsibility. That's why nobody talks about what Malta thinks about the Russian invasion. Per capita is important in a "moral sense" for individuals. Per capita is meaningless in international politics.
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I'm sorry, but that's just a lazy excuse. Germany could say the same about carbon emissions. "We're a small country, we aren't the leverage, look at China and India, they produce much more" ignoring that our per capita emissions are I believe four or five times those of India. This is simply not how it works. So it is a bit rich to criticize our financing of the Russian war when your very own people contributed more to it than the posters you're adressing.

And while I'm also of the opinion that Germany should do more, you'd be better off trying to understand why our leaders are so hesitant. I can only imagine what it would mean for Europe (and probably its arms production as well) if the German chemistry industry collapses for instance. Especially if some of the plants have to be closed for good because such a thing as a production pause doesn't exist. It either keeps running or it is finished.


Tucholsky said:
Lets be honest here. While all of this is true. It is not the reason for the piss poor state of the german armed forces, the Bundeswehr. The reason for that is, that Germany thought it could have armed forces on the cheap, and spent the money on other things, while enjoying the "peace dividend" and the security umbrella provided by the United states.
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This is one perspective. I believe the truth lies somewhere inbetween. The military is extremely unpopular in Germany - or was until the war. That has nothing to do with economic interests, it is just that two generations have been brought up completely anti war and anti military. On the other hand, I'm fully sure that the peace dividend is another "incentive" to think that way. Our dependence on Russian gas is a good example of that. People are genuinely for peace and trade but it's easier to convince yourself that trading with Russia will bring it closer to the West if you profit from it financially.

But even shortly after Trump's election, many people acknowledged that he had a point regarding the defense budget - and not the usual suspects from the right wing but people who generally despised him. It is a bit like "yeah, the clothes I wear were produced in Bangladesh but actually these factories are very important for the country on its way to grow economically". While you might have a point, you're making it (partly) out of the wrong motives, pointing a blind eye to the negative aspects of it.
 
frostbite said:
Putin goes to a famous Russian medium that reads the future, and asks him when he is going to die.

- The same day as the greatest Ukrainian State Holiday.
- Are you sure? asks Putin.
- Yes, I am 100% sure, the medium answers!

Putin pulls out a gun, points it to the medium and tells him:

- Tell me how you know this, or else you are dead.
- Well, it is simple, answers the medium. Any day you die it will become the greatest Ukrainian State Holiday!
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The thread for terrible jokes is in the General Forum.
 
Ukraine war: CIA chief says no intelligence that Putin is in bad health

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62246914

There is no intelligence that Vladimir Putin is unstable or in bad health, the director of the CIA has said.

There has been increasing unconfirmed media speculation that Mr Putin, who turns 70 this year, may be suffering from ill health, possibly cancer.

But William Burns said there was no evidence to suggest this, joking that he appeared "too healthy".

The Kremlin has again dismissed the reports of Mr Putin's ill-health as "nothing but fakes".

It came as the US announced it would provide Ukraine with more long-range weapons.
 
frostbite said:
German apologists en masse. It is sad. If you really care about Germany's honor, you should be the first to demand that Germany takes a leadership position in this war. It is the first major war in Europe after WW2 and Germany can be the leader of the good guys!
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This is an ignorant comment in itself.
 
Total losses of Russian forces (February 24, 2022 - July 20, 2022):

Human casualties:
~156,000 total
~38,750 killed
~116,250 wounded
~1,000 prisoners of war
221 Aircraft
188 Helicopters
1,700 tanks
3,905 APVs
856 artillery systems
250 MLRS units
113 anti-aircraft defence systems
2,775 vehicles and fuel tanks
703 UAVs
70 units of special equipment
15 sea vessels
167 cruise missiles


Source: Ukraine General Staff

https://uvji.substack.com/p/072022-military
 
"Troika" trending in Portugal. People are loving being asked to show solidarity to Germany after being fecked during the last crisis. Portuguese PM saying we're not going to reduce gas consumption.
 
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