Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

Moby said:
I don't really subscribe to that. There are certain acts wherein human rights aren't a right anymore. This is one of them.
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There's really not any leeway here. A human right is by definition something you have by existing as a human. If you believe a right can be taken away then you don't believe it is a human right. You can believe it is a general right people have under certain conditions, e.g. you can believe that people have a general right to not be taken and locked up by the state, but that this right is forfeitet if you're convicted of a serious crime, but you cannot believe that it is a human right. It's literally impossible.

Abizzz said:
She wasn't stateless until the terror state she chose to spend her life in collapsed.
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IS is a group, not a state, she was never an Islamic State citizen. You have to know this, so I really don't get the point of this comment.
 
2cents said:
I agree. However in this case she has changed her story after taking legal advice and coming to understand the consequences of her decisions. Again, until she presents some real evidence I don’t see a reason to simply accept this line without question.
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So as a 15yr old you'd expect her to take into account the full legal ramifications of her actions, and not seek legal advice afterwards?
 
2cents said:
I agree. However in this case she has changed her story after taking legal advice and coming to understand the consequences of her decisions. Again, until she presents some real evidence I don’t see a reason to simply accept this line without question.
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Yea I think it’s clear she’s unreliable in terms of testimony. But it doesn’t mean she wasn’t groomed, (nor does it mean she was). What it does make really clear is she is 15 years old and had a brain of a 15 year old - an age where they struggle to understand the consequences of their actions.
 
A victim of grooming's opinion on whether they were groomed or not is not the most important opinion on the matter. Definitely not.
 
NotThatSoph said:
IS is a group, not a state, she was never an Islamic State citizen. You have to know this, so I really don't get the point of this comment.
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No one recognized their statehood. But they still very much claimed to be one:
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/timeline-the-rise-spread-and-fall-the-islamic-state

The group changed its name to the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) in 2013. ISIS launched an offensive on Mosul and Tikrit in June 2014. On June 29, ISIS leader Abu Bakr al Baghdadi announced the formation of a caliphate stretching from Aleppo in Syria to Diyala in Iraq, and renamed the group the Islamic State.
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Abizzz said:
No one recognized their statehood. But they still very much claimed to be one:
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/timeline-the-rise-spread-and-fall-the-islamic-state
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Couldn't matter any less. If you want to defend making people stateless that's fine, go ahead, you can make that argument just like the current UK government is attempting to do, but hiding behind this is a weak excuse that doesn't work. If you feel the need to add excuses then it implies to me that your conviction isn't very strong.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
So as a 15yr old you'd expect her to take into account the full legal ramifications of her actions, and not seek legal advice afterwards?
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No I’m saying the fact her story changed over time in such a way as to transform her from willing ISIS volunteer to groomed trafficked victim is suspicious and, in the absence of new evidence, possibly reflects legal advice received in between. I’m not actually ruling out the possibility she was groomed in some way but I see little reason to just assume she was right now.

The Corinthian said:
Yea I think it’s clear she’s unreliable in terms of testimony. But it doesn’t mean she wasn’t groomed, (nor does it mean she was). What it does make really clear is she is 15 years old and had a brain of a 15 year old - an age where they struggle to understand the consequences of their actions.
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I pretty much agree, although I would point out again that over 50,000 others, male and female, young and old, rich and poor, crossing all linguistic, ethnic and national boundaries, also made the same decision. I think it’s hard to understand and uncomfortable to acknowledge that ISIS actually had that kind of broad, genuine appeal, and I’m not sure that ‘grooming’ is a useful paradigm by which to understand that appeal, however relevant it may be in this specific case.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Couldn't matter any less. If you want to defend making people stateless that's fine, go ahead, you can make that argument just like the current UK government is attempting to do, but hiding behind this is a weak excuse that doesn't work. If you feel the need to add excuses then it implies to me that your conviction isn't very strong.
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:rolleyes:

I guess I'll have to continue existing without your approval. I'll struggle.


Sorry @altodevil didn't mean to include your quote in that.
 
Abizzz said:
:rolleyes:

I guess I'll have to continue existing without you're approval. I'll struggle.
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It has nothing to do with approval. Of course you shouldn't care about my approval, we don't know each other. You don't believe it's a human right to not be made stateless, you believe it's a right that can be taken away under some conditions. That's fine. What I think of you or you think of me doesn't change anything.

For what it's worth you don't have either my approval or disapproval, I don't know what that would even mean. I don't know you.
 
2cents said:
No I’m saying the fact her story changed over time in such a way as to transform her from willing ISIS volunteer to groomed trafficked victim is suspicious and, in the absence of new evidence, possibly reflects legal advice received in between. I’m not actually ruling out the possibility she was groomed in some way but I see little reason to just assume she was right now.



I pretty much agree, although I would point out again that over 50,000 others, male and female, young and old, rich and poor, crossing all linguistic, ethnic and national boundaries, also made the same decision. I think it’s hard to understand and uncomfortable to acknowledge that ISIS actually had that kind of broad, genuine appeal, and I’m not sure that ‘grooming’ is a useful paradigm by which to understand that appeal, however relevant it may be in this specific case.
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But you don't believe that with time and increased maturity, a person can come to realise the reality of what was happening to them as a child?
 
mu4c_20le said:
So whose is it?
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Legal professionals and law enforcement. My wife has seen first-hand countless young girls who claim everything was great, or wouldn't even understand the concept of grooming when probed. When in truth the evidence to suggest they were is substantial, and often sickening.
 
NotThatSoph said:
There's really not any leeway here. A human right is by definition something you have by existing as a human. If you believe a right can be taken away then you don't believe it is a human right. You can believe it is a general right people have under certain conditions, e.g. you can believe that people have a general right to not be taken and locked up by the state, but that this right is forfeitet if you're convicted of a serious crime, but you cannot believe that it is a human right. It's literally impossible
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Ok so being guaranteed of having the citizenship of a state in which you were born in is not a human right then. I'm not utterly concerned with the semantics.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
But you don't believe that with time and increased maturity, a person can come to realise the reality of what was happening to them as a child?
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It’s certainly possible but more investigation would be needed to determine that, and I’m not sure she’s earned the benefit of the doubt here. In the meantime, and above all else, I’m extremely reluctant to have any kind of equivalence drawn between her and the actual slaves captured and sold for sex by the organization she joined and for whom she has yet to express any pity. Describing her as having been trafficked or raped unfortunately draws such an equivalence, however unintended. I’m definitely more open to the ‘grooming’ charge but would need more evidence, and would still be hesitant to draw analogies with young vulnerable girls groomed specifically for the sex industry.

As things stand for me this is a case of a stupid young girl falling for an ideology which she investigated and found attractive. There are likely multiple reasons why ISIS appealed to her, and some of them may be primarily due to her youth. Really the British state should be anxious to bring her home and get the truth out of her, and see if perhaps she’d be willing to help with other investigations.
 
Jippy said:
It's not sympathy for Shamima that's the issue - no-one is denying she's odious. It's disgust at the British government dumping responsibility for its problem citizens on other countries like a feckless coward.
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People in this thread are doing that. They are claiming because she was 15 when she left for Syria to join ISIS it means she isn't responsible for her actions and in fact she is a victim in all of this. Which to me and many others is obviously a load of bollocks. Also, if you believe she isn't a victim then you are a racist apparently.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
I'm basing my opinions on the legal frameworks of the country that revoked her citizenship.

1. Again! She made the decision at 15 when she wasn't legally able to make that decision. Those people who 'found her a husband' were the groomers as they offered her a life with a husband when she was a child!

2. As above, applying UK law as they're the ones who revoked her citizenship.

3. Now that's just ignorant! She was 19 but it was her actions whilst a minor that lead to her losing her citizenship. You surely can't the that obtuse that you think that's a valid argument? How about we hold all u-18 criminals until they're 18 and then we can try them as adults FFS!

4. Finally, it doesn't matter what she did, she had reduced capacity / diminished responsibility as she moved as a minor.
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1. I think you're severely stretching the claim of 'grooming' significantly even if I allow for British law being applied to none British land.

2. It sounds like you're a lawyer looking for technicalities to get her off and I'll be honest I'm more an ends justifies the means kind of guy. An evil pyschopathic murderer is in refugee camp that keeps her imprisoned. She should be in prison to protect general society and punish her anyway

3. She absolutely was commiting heinous crimes as an adult. So yes she started commiting these crimes as a 15yo and continued as an 18 and 19yo. She didn't want to return to Britain when she was 18 or 19 and was very happy their until they started to lose their homes due to them losing the war.

4. She was not a minor when she was putting people in suicide vests they couldn't remove and carrying out brutal punishments against peoples as her part in the 'morality police' when she was 18 and 19

Other issues you're ignoring:

A) The crimes she's commited in Syria should absolutely be prosecuted in Syria

B) British citizens should be protected against people who are threats to society that are entering the country
 
ThierryFabregas said:
1. I think you're severely stretching the claim of 'grooming' significantly even if I allow for British law being applied to none British land.

2. It sounds like you're a lawyer looking for technicalities to get her off and I'll be honest I'm more an ends justifies the means kind of guy. An evil pyschopathic murderer is in refugee camp that keeps her imprisoned. She should be in prison to protect general society and punish her anyway

3. She absolutely was commiting heinous crimes as an adult. So yes she started commiting these crimes as a 15yo and continued as an 18 and 19yo. She didn't want to return to Britain when she was 18 or 19 and was very happy their until they started to lose their homes due to them losing the war.

4. She was not a minor when she was putting people in suicide vests they couldn't remove and carrying out brutal punishments against peoples as her part in the 'morality police' when she was 18 and 19

Other issues you're ignoring:

A) The crimes she's commited in Syria should absolutely be prosecuted in Syria

B) British citizens should be protected against people who are threats to society that are entering the country
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How do you know any of this? You are accusing her of heinous acts and telling people to blow themselves up when all we know for fact is that she was taken as a bride, married off as soon as she got there and subsequently had 3 kids that all died.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
"Begum claimed during the interview that she was groomed by friends and older men online, maybe for months. She said, “(I was) groomed for weeks and weeks and maybe even months and months. It wasn’t just a decision I made very quickly, it was a decision I thought about for a while”. She added that she did not hate Britain but her life. She said, “I didn’t hate Britain, I hated my life really. I felt very constricted, and I felt I couldn’t live the life that I wanted in the UK as a British woman.”
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You know that's what her lawyers told her to say don't you? Here's what she was saying when she was 19. She was happy living under ISIL until the age of 19 when they lost the war



'Why did you leave for Syria (essentially asks if she was groomed)' - 'I watched the news and saw allot of videos on the internet and it attracted me. It attracted allot of people'.

'Do you think you've made a mistake going to Syria' - 'In a way yes but I don't regret it........I married my husband, I wouldn't find someone like him back in the UK.........I did have a good time there........I would like to get in contact with my husband (an ISIS fighter)

'I was happy in ISIL until the very end'
'I was okay with beheadings.......Islamically that was all allowed.......(You didn't question that) NO.'
'They don't have any evidence against me.......they don't have proof I did anything' - statement of a guilty person and we have evidence through testimony of her war crimes
 
marktan said:
How do you know any of this? You are accusing her of heinous acts and telling people to blow themselves up when all we know for fact is that she was taken as a bride, married off as soon as she got there and subsequently had 3 kids that all died.
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If only there was some kind mechanism through which people accused of something could be confronted with proof against them and given a chance to defend themselves.
 
maniak said:
If only there was some kind mechanism through which people accused of something could be confronted with proof against them and given a chance to defend themselves.
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Her crimes are under Syrian jurisdiction. I'm more than happy for Syria to give her the death penalty through their court process, which she would receive if they policed her properly. If they prefer to leave her rotting in a unsanitary refugee camp, that's their call.
 
ThierryFabregas said:
Her crimes are under Syrian jurisdiction. I'm more than happy for Syria to give her the death penalty through their court process, which she would receive if they policed her properly. If they prefer to leave her rotting in a unsanitary refugee camp, that's their call.
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Only because the UK cowardly evaded their responsibilities towards one of their citizens. A really pathetic move that should embarrass any british citizen.
 
2cents said:
Again you’ve provided no evidence for this. This is from an interview she gave just after she emerged:

“Can you describe what it has been like to live with and under the Islamic State? At first it was nice, it was like how they showed it in the videos, like 'come, make a family together'.Then afterwards, things got harder, you know. When we lost Raqqa we had to keep moving and moving and moving. The situation got difficult.
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I read that quote as pretty big evidence that she was groomed personally. "They" showed in the videos could be seen as people leading her to propaganda and bringing her into the circle. She could have just found and watched a few videos, but I'm pretty certain that once you're in that part of the internet there'll a lot of people looking to entice you further in and convert you.

Also, they've enticed her with promises of families and a good life, and that's surely how grooming works?
 
maniak said:
Only because the UK cowardly evaded their responsibilities towards one of their citizens. A really pathetic move that should embarrass any british citizen.
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I swear some of you would want Hitler let off under mental health dissorders and talk about his human rights FFS

You're like those women on twitter who want to give Putin a hug to stop him being an evil fecker
 
Balljy said:
I read that quote as pretty big evidence that she was groomed personally. "They" showed in the videos could be seen as people leading her to propaganda and bringing her into the circle. She could have just found and watched a few videos, but I'm pretty certain that once you're in that part of the internet there'll a lot of people looking to entice you further in and convert you.

Also, they've enticed her with promises of families and a good life, and that's surely how grooming works?
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She's saying she was only regretful when they lost the war. She was loving it until she became a refugee. She also testifies that they didn't groom her in this video.
 
Balljy said:
I read that quote as pretty big evidence that she was groomed personally. "They" showed in the videos could be seen as people leading her to propaganda and bringing her into the circle. She could have just found and watched a few videos, but I'm pretty certain that once you're in that part of the internet there'll a lot of people looking to entice you further in and convert you.
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You could interpret it like that in isolation, but later she is specifically asked if someone recruited her or she just watched videos, and she says she just watched videos. I can say from personal experience that anyone with an interest in ISIS from 2013-2015 had absolutely no difficulty finding videos, online magazines, speeches, even a tourist guide to the Islamic State was published. It was all freely available all over the internet.

Also, they've enticed her with promises of families and a good life, and that's surely how grooming works?
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Not sure where the line between propaganda and grooming is here. It doesn’t seem like she felt the videos she watched were misleading, according to her life with ISIS was just as the propaganda portrayed it, and she was happy with that until ISIS started losing. Is every minor who falls for propaganda considered to have been ‘groomed’? Perhaps, but it’s clearly a different category of grooming to the type we’re more accustomed to hearing about.
 
ThierryFabregas said:
I swear some of you would want Hitler let off under mental health dissorders and talk about his human rights FFS

You're like those women on twitter who want to give Putin a hug to stop him being an evil fecker
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Making people stand trial for their crimes would only be letting them off if they're found not guilty, which would mean that their alleged crimes cannot be proven to a satisfactory degree. Do you think there's no good evidence for Hitler's crimes? That's pretty messed up if so, the Holocaust is an established historical fact.
 
ThierryFabregas said:
I swear some of you would want Hitler let off under mental health dissorders and talk about his human rights FFS

You're like those women on twitter who want to give Putin a hug to stop him being an evil fecker
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In an ideal world, Hitler would've been tried in Nurnberg and punished within the legal framework. Same for any other villain in history. Justice served, probably more satisfying for their victims.

No one wants to her to be let off, people want her tried and not treated as some exception because... reasons.
 
2cents said:
You could interpret it like that in isolation, but later she is specifically asked if someone recruited her or she just watched videos, and she says she just watched videos. I can say from personal experience that anyone with an interest in ISIS from 2013-2015 had absolutely no difficulty finding videos, online magazines, speeches, even a tourist guide to the Islamic State was published. It was all freely available all over the internet.
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Fair enough, I was going from that quote.
 
P-Ro said:
People in this thread are doing that. They are claiming because she was 15 when she left for Syria to join ISIS it means she isn't responsible for her actions and in fact she is a victim in all of this. Which to me and many others is obviously a load of bollocks. Also, if you believe she isn't a victim then you are a racist apparently.
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People saying she's been groomed is different to saying she's not horrible. She's been massively unrepentant and pretty loathsome with the crap she's spouted. No-one has denied that, claiming she's a charmer, regardless of how much weight they put behind the grooming argument.
 
How are all the 15 year boys being promised lots of brides and highest heaven in ISIS being treated? Must have been a thing.
 
ThierryFabregas said:
I swear some of you would want Hitler let off under mental health dissorders and talk about his human rights FFS

You're like those women on twitter who want to give Putin a hug to stop him being an evil fecker
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You seem (deliberately or otherwise) to be ignoring that the woman made these decisions as a child and as such has diminished legal responsibility.
 
I'm only dipping a toe in this thread. Is there a poll, or a general consensus from Cafe users living in the UK if she should be allowed back? Just wondering if it's safe to wade in here. Also wondering how IS returnees who were male are or were treated, and if there is a different sentiment for this person? Why would she be treated differently?
 
Carolina Red said:
Remind me… how many fair trials and human rights did ISIS grant to the people they butchered?
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This kind of remark occurs so often and I honestly can't believe how anyone of sound mind would think it's actually anything but a horribly dumb thing to say.

It shouldn't be hard to realize that the point of a fuctioning society is NOT to be like ISIS :wenger:
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
I'm only dipping a toe in this thread. Is there a poll, or a general consensus from Cafe users living in the UK if she should be allowed back? Just wondering if it's safe to wade in here. Also wondering how IS returnees who were male are or were treated, and if there is a different sentiment for this person? Why would she be treated differently?
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Yeah hundreds returned to the UK and most nations in fact. For obvious reasons she became more of a well known figure and as such Daily Mail angry men burst a vein and the government made a political move to make capital out of it.
 
maniak said:
In an ideal world, Hitler would've been tried in Nurnberg and punished within the legal framework. Same for any other villain in history. Justice served, probably more satisfying for their victims.

No one wants to her to be let off, people want her tried and not treated as some exception because... reasons.
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The reason would be

A) She commited the crimes in Syria. So they decide if they prosecute her or leave her to rot
B) She's a threat to UK citizens. She said:
Manchester Arena bombing ‘justified’ because of Syria airstrikes
C) She might get off in a court of law when she's obviously guilty. If she doesn't get off, the British tax payer will pay £100,000s to keep her in prison.
D) Justice is being done already

Listen I'm not a fan of windrush or being unfair to immigrants. I just think justic is being served already at the best possible economic price.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
You seem (deliberately or otherwise) to be ignoring that the woman made these decisions as a child and as such has diminished legal responsibility.
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You seem to be ignoring she also commited war crimes aged 18 and 19 of legal age and also supported the Manchester Terrorist bombings during this period.
 
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