Transgender Athletes

VorZakone said:
I'm not sure this is really the case. Most acknowledge the biology aspect but they prioritize transgender participation over the complains of biological women.
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And why would that be? Isn't it because it's the "correct opinion" according to mainstream? A lot of people have vastly different opinions on the same topic depending on the environment where they express it. One being what they really think, another being the politically correct one. You can support transgenders in everything but if you think they should not be allowed to compete with biological women (for quite obvious reasons), you will suddenly be called out for wanting to strip their human rights, transphobic and will be cancelled by the radicals on any social media platform. It's just the way it is with this whole gender topic.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Nobody is denying anyone their identity. You're just using that as your argument because you cannot come up with a valid reason as to why they should be allowed to compete in a category of weaker cis women. They're women but with the ability of a male due to genetics which does not change based on what you identify as. They have the strength, genetics and power of a man even though they're women. If a cis woman loses against another cis woman there won't be any questions or doubts that it's a loss because it's a fair fight. If they lose against a transwoman then it's not a fair loss. It's a loss against someone who will always have an edge due to strength, endurance, ability, power, speed just to name a few criteria that makes it an unfair competition.
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Any physical advantage trans women may have over cis women is dwarfed by the advantage men have over trans women, it's not even close. When a good trans woman athlete competes against a good cis woman athlete the result will be close, while if a good trans woman athlete competes against a good cis man athlete it'll be like the heavyweight vs featherweight example you yourself brought up.

We are talking about very strong hormonal treatments here, and often surgery. The strength and power output absolutely do change, they fall by enormous amounts, that's not even in question. The debate is if it's enough.
 
giorno said:
What that says is you don't genuinely consider trans-women, women. Usain Bolt had massive genetic, physical advantages over every other person he competed against. Should we have excluded him from competing?

I get the desire to protect cis women athletes, there is no easy or simple solution here, but not at the cost of denying an entire group of people their identity
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I never got this argument; taking a small variance within one group, to the extrapolate that the bigger variances between two different and separate groups shouldn't be controlled for or addressed.

Seen it with Michael Phelps etc but it never makes any sense to me.
 
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Escobar said:
No we do not. It is cery clear, scientifically there is no debate
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If you mean because females have XX chromosomes then that's not been how we've defined through history. Some born female (according to their birth certificate etc) babies don't have XX chromosomes. Significant numbers of born female babies have ambiguous external genitalia. Some have a mismatch between external and internal organs.

You can draw lines in definitions, but it isn't a simple one and not even a historically consistent one.
 
jojojo said:
If you mean because females have XX chromosomes then that's not been how we've defined through history. Some born female (according to their birth certificate etc) babies don't have XX chromosomes. Significant numbers of born female babies have ambiguous external genitalia. Some have a mismatch between external and internal organs.

You can draw lines in definitions, but it isn't a simple one and not even a historically consistent one.
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Are you referring to DSD/Intersex?
 
stepic said:
honestly the way people go on about the incredibly massive advantages trans women have over poor wee cis women, you’d think there’d be at least one trans woman on the planet who massively dominates their sport like Bolt did in his.

I guess we’ll keep waiting.
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Thankfully common sense is filtering through and trans women are being widely banned across sport in the female category. So we won’t get a biological man dominating women’s sport.
 
The current discourse around the debate could move towards resolution if trans activists look ahead and be honest about the end game. Even if you solve the conundrum about the trans athletes, you will have to consider the non binary athletes. Movement is already underway and most likely would result in gender result awards in arts in near future, that is just best actor award (all gender identities) rather than separate one for male and female. Along same lines you will have a non binary US football player in future who may not want to be excluded by being forced to compete under label of US women soccer team.
Essentially the only way to be fair to all gender identities now is to have a single category for all sports. That is too radical a change hence why you won't see any one right now argue for it in mainstream but hard to see how that is not the end game here.
 
crappycraperson said:
The current discourse around the debate could move towards resolution if trans activists look ahead and be honest about the end game. Even if you solve the conundrum about the trans athletes, you will have to consider the non binary athletes. Movement is already underway and most likely would result in gender result awards in arts in near future, that is just best actor award (all gender identities) rather than separate one for male and female. Along same lines you will have a non binary US football player in future who may not want to be excluded by being forced to compete under label of US women soccer team.
Essentially the only way to be fair to all gender identities now is to have a single category for all sports. That is too radical a change hence why you won't see any one right now argue for it in mainstream but hard to see how that is not the end game here.
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I see your point but those with gender dysphoria wish to be seen as the sex that their innate gender most aligns with, so removing sex based categories would potentially signal to them that they're not a real man/woman, which is also unfair.
 
NotThatSoph said:
We are talking about very strong hormonal treatments here, and often surgery. The strength and power output absolutely do change, they fall by enormous amounts, that's not even in question. The debate is if it's enough.
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That means we're also talking about drawing lines between different transwomen - as gender transition mean different things for different individuals. If it's essentially a rights and inclusivity question then I'm not sure where you'd draw that line at all.

If it's essentially about sporting fairness and rules to protect that, we're looking at different lines in different sports. I doubt events like shooting for example need gender categories at all, but if they do then there's still no need for a birth sex based distinction.

Most physical sports though? You say the differences are close.The differences between elite athletes are close, that's why this isn't easy.

I doubt it's possible to put a number on it as so much depends on transition timing, physical nature of transition, training intensity during transition etc. Some transwomen lose a lot of their previous advantages, others lose less - I really don't see how you build that into a sporting fairness model.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Why the condescending tone? Our capabilities should not even be compared to someone with a superior genetic makeup. It's ridiculous the way some try to invalidate a legitimate concern that has scientific data to back it up.
Calling them "poor cis woman" is very insulting when these women work their asses to compete in a specific category only to be faced with even more challenges in the form of an athlete who is far more superior.
Why then do you not see more transmen compete in the men's category if they measure up equally? Why is it that the number of transwomen who are competing in the women's category greater than transmen competing in the men's category if they're all of equal ability?
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The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
 
stepic said:
The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
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You’re a misogynist.
 
stepic said:
The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
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Isn't this because the transwomen are able to compete closer to cis women's pro level even as semi-pros?
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
They're been using any excuse for decades to ban anything not heteronormative and they see this as a vote winner in the middle ground unfortunately.
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Yep, unfortunately so. Hence topics such as this one (and others, like appealing to parents’ innate concern for their children and using this in other fear mongering ways eg safety of children in changing rooms) are purposely used as wedge issues.

And it works. Time and time again
 
stepic said:
The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
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Men telling women how women should think about being women doesn't sit quite right with me.
 
There is no way this issue is not going to result in anything but bans of transgender athletes in women sports.

Sports are ruined when some get an unfair advantage. This debate is not about transgender rights so much as it is about fair competition.
 
stepic said:
The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
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And what about how cis women are being portrayed by you? Calling them wee cis women seems fair to you? Are you favoring trans women over cis women for a particular reason?

In the world of sports even a small advantage can make a difference. We're talking seconds and mere inches that can determine a win.

It's just not right and like I mentioned before these wee cis women work their asses of and it's the decisions of mostly men(correct me if I'm wrong) that's creating a situation where they have to work even harder now to win in a category that's supposed to be dedicated to women with equal abilities.

If these women are found guilty of taking enhancement drugs to keep up then they'll get disqualified. The reason being they now have an advantage over the other athletes. It's that advantage that's an issue. It's not their identity. It's the advantage, no matter how small that will always create that doubt whenever a transwoman wins a competition.
It's not fair to them also if they'll always be doubted when they win. They want a clean win too. It's not fair to either party and that's why they should compete with athletes of equal ability in their own separate category where they can be celebrated instead of doubted.
 
711 said:
Men telling women how women should think about being women doesn't sit quite right with me.
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Let’s call it what it is - misogyny. And @stepic is a prime example although he’ll no doubt fall over himself trying to explain away how it isn’t.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
And what about how cis women are being portrayed by you? Calling them wee cis women seems fair to you? Are you favoring trans women over cis women for a particular reason?

In the world of sports even a small advantage can make a difference. We're talking seconds and mere inches that can determine a win.

It's just not right and like I mentioned before these wee cis women work their asses of and it's the decisions of mostly men(correct me if I'm wrong) that's creating a situation where they have to work even harder now to win in a category that's supposed to be dedicated to women with equal abilities.

If these women are found guilty of taking enhancement drugs to keep up then they'll get disqualified. The reason being they now have an advantage over the other athletes. It's that advantage that's an issue. It's not their identity. It's the advantage, no matter how small that will always create that doubt whenever a transwoman wins a competition.
It's not fair to them also if they'll always be doubted when they win. They want a clean win too. It's not fair to either party and that's why they should compete with athletes of equal ability in their own separate category where they can be celebrated instead of doubted.
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see above
 
The Corinthian said:
Let’s call it what it is - misogyny. And @stepic is a prime example although he’ll no doubt fall over himself trying to explain away how it isn’t.
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I was clearly mocking those who present cis women as fragile. If you can’t understand that incredibly basic context then that’s on you.
 
stepic said:
I am literally saying the opposite. Please learn to read.

Cis women are not weak and fragile. They routinely beat trans women. THATS MY POINT
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stepic said:
I was clearly mocking those who present cis women as fragile. If you can’t understand that incredibly basic context then that’s on you.
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That’s more nonsense.

The average woman is at a disadvantage to the average trans woman in the sporting arena. This is just a fact. If you’re too bone headed to understand and accept this fact, then it’s you who needs help with comprehension.
 
711 said:
Men telling women how women should think about being women doesn't sit quite right with me.
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Especially on the left, it's a neat way to be mask misogyny. Not saying that's Step but yeah, once you see it....

Remember nothing angers men more than women saying no and asserting a boundary.
 
The Corinthian said:
That’s more nonsense.

The average woman is at a disadvantage to the average trans woman in the sporting arena. This is just a fact. If you’re too bone headed to understand and accept this fact, then it’s you who needs help with comprehension.
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I've tried to explain this to someone before, but it doesn't seem to be easy to understand.
I was 1.90m tall, 6'3 ish, when i was 14, i was pretty much done with puberty when i was 16.
Anyone who thinks i wouldn't have an advantage over girls in sports if i transitioned then at 16, at that size, are just straight up wrong.

And to those saying cis women often beat trans in sports, sure, maybe now, but if they are allowed to compete with women, it's just a matter of time before most in the top are trans women.

I want everyone to live a good, safe and happy life, no matter gender, sexuality or colour, but saying i don't think trans women should compete in the women's division, makes me a bigot and transphobe in most discussions online.
As some have pointed out earlier, this is why many don't bother taking part in these discussion.
 
Grylte said:
I want everyone to live a good, safe and happy life, no matter gender, sexuality or colour, but saying i don't think trans women should compete in the women's division, makes me a bigot and transphobe in most discussions online.
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Do you believe those two things are compatible? Is a transgender kid who wants to play sports but is banned living a good and happy life?
 
Grylte said:
I've tried to explain this to someone before, but it doesn't seem to be easy to understand.
I was 1.90m tall, 6'3 ish, when i was 14, i was pretty much done with puberty when i was 16.
Anyone who thinks i wouldn't have an advantage over girls in sports if i transitioned then at 16, at that size, are just straight up wrong.

And to those saying cis women often beat trans in sports, sure, maybe now, but if they are allowed to compete with women, it's just a matter of time before most in the top are trans women.

I want everyone to live a good, safe and happy life, no matter gender, sexuality or colour, but saying i don't think trans women should compete in the women's division, makes me a bigot and transphobe in most discussions online.
As some have pointed out earlier, this is why many don't bother taking part in these discussion.
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Just to add to this, it's not the tans women fault. None of this is their fault. The fault lies on the sporting organizations for not providing them with a place in the sporting world where they can compete fairly.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I don't necessarily disagree with you because biological advantages of male born people obviously comes into play, regardless of the already utilised limitations on testosterone and other tests carried out to ensure that fairplay is carried out, when it comes to physical activities, in these sports. And maybe those these existing processes need to be advertised more to improve general confidence, somewhat...?

But at the same time the human factor also needs to be accepted and recognised. And as the parent of a transitioning child I know, at least from a personal level listening to my kid and how they feel; it's frightening how often these examples in sport are used as a reason to attack their existence. And then politicians, more than happy to feck around and steal, suddenly decide that gender is going to be to focus of their political campaigns - which aren't in any way divisive purely because hate brings them votes. And now the media report it because, if it isn't clearly already the talking point which it already is after public figures have been piggybacking off of it, it certainly brings the clicks to their website... But ultimately we all collectively begin to forget the most important factor. The Human factor...

Too often we all look through these situations through a lense that forgets that we're not just discussing "person A" or "person B". These are real people who are affected by often arbitrary decisions made by sporting - and political - committees that prefer to follow the "out of sight, out of mind" mentality without a single thought about how their actions affect the people they're challenging.

Until you've had to comfort and reassure a young kid at 4am because they don't want to live anymore, because all they see online is hate about people like them, it's difficult to appreciate that this is more than just about empty, unassociated names, on a news report.

If we're talking about souls then let's get the morality and humanity parts sorted out first.
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As a parent going through a similar situation, I could not agree more with this, it brought a tear to my eye reading it.

The sporting argument is a tough one and far more nuanced than many of the posts on here take into account. I don’t have an answer for it. But some of the posts here play into the spirit of the anti trans themes you see and hear online and in life everyday. Dismissing people has a very real and potentially devastating effect and one I see everyday.
 
maniak said:
Do you believe those two things are compatible? Is a transgender kid who wants to play sports but is banned living a good and happy life?
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Who banned them? The other athletes? They were banned by sporting organizations. The other athletes had nothing to do with it and they shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of an organization who can't provide a safe environment for all their athletes to compete...fairly.
 
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