Transgender rights discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Scott Moe, from Saskatchewan, has to be the dumbest cnut of a premier in Canada if there was no Danielle Smith around.
Saskatchewan premier vows to veto ruling on school pronoun policy (BBC)
Moe pushed forward a policy that bars teachers from using the preferred pronouns and genders of students under 16 without their parental consent. That was before the highest court in the province blocked that policy.
Saskatchewan premier vows to veto ruling on school pronoun policy (BBC)
Moe pushed forward a policy that bars teachers from using the preferred pronouns and genders of students under 16 without their parental consent. That was before the highest court in the province blocked that policy.
How long does it take for a proposal to become a law?
Moe has been a very good premier for Saskatchewan. He's had a rather positive approval rating for his entire tenure.
That's only because Saskatchewan is full of racists, bigots and homophobes/transphobes. He's a shitty Premier from a stupid party and Saskatchewan is a dump these days. He's no Roy fecking Romanow, that's for sure.
Sorry, I just spent six weeks there.
My deepest condolences
But fair enough, and I won't try to convince you that your experience wasn't what you describe. I will say that I lived in Saskatoon from age 3 - 30 (excepting an exchange year, and one year in Edmonton) and it's become about 1000x more multicultural and cosmopolitan over my time. I was the only non-white kid in most of my classes growing up. A couple years ago I did some work in elementary schools and we were playing cricket at recess with the massive South Asian population that exists now. Schools had the equipment and everything.
You won't find that in BC, where I'm at now, despite there being a huge Punjabi population here. I'd consider moving back to SK if it wasn't so damn boring and ugly.
I'll give you the multicultural aspect. I grew up there as well (age 1 - 25) and there are definitely many more south Asian, Filipino and African residents these days but as a person with some indigenous ancestry, I'm confident in saying that a majority of the white residents hold archaic beliefs about race and sexuality and the Saskatchewan party holds those, too. Hopefully some of these new residents will stick around there and foster change through participation in government.
Yeah, I won't put up much fight on Harper's "old stock Canadians" in Saskatchewan being behind the times. But I will say that I find anti-Indigenous sentiment in the Okanagan worse than it is in Saskatchewan. Some of the shit people say here
Yeah, I won't put up much fight on Harper's "old stock Canadians" in Saskatchewan being behind the times. But I will say that I find anti-Indigenous sentiment in the Okanagan worse than it is in Saskatchewan. Some of the shit people say here
To be fair, it's pretty bad everywhere. At least the new immigrants tend to have respect and admiration for the indigenous people and culture.
People who are against trans rights or are busy trying to get laws passed concerning trans people, how many trans people have they actually talked with?
I have a friend who was born male and transitioned to female a decade ago, so she's female, not trans. According to her this isn't something that someone wakes up one day and decides to do, it's something that is clear and apparent to the person from their earliest memories. So people who know they are in the wrong body can't act to change anything until well into adulthood, according to many states laws now.
It's a strange topic if it doesn't affect you, or your family, or people you know, but once you do know someone in that community, it's really not that complicated. Those kids are suffering and they are telling their parents what they need - why not listen to them? Does anyone think any of those parents are intentionally pushing their kids into this? It's terrifying. A couple friends of mine had this very thing happen, and in addition to trying to help their kids not feel suicidal, and trying to get their peers to accept them, they are also now fighting with people who feel compelled to tell them what to do for their kids' health and sanity.
I just wish people would let the people it affects make the decisions they need to make without harassment and judgment.
I have a friend who was born male and transitioned to female a decade ago, so she's female, not trans. According to her this isn't something that someone wakes up one day and decides to do, it's something that is clear and apparent to the person from their earliest memories. So people who know they are in the wrong body can't act to change anything until well into adulthood, according to many states laws now.
It's a strange topic if it doesn't affect you, or your family, or people you know, but once you do know someone in that community, it's really not that complicated. Those kids are suffering and they are telling their parents what they need - why not listen to them? Does anyone think any of those parents are intentionally pushing their kids into this? It's terrifying. A couple friends of mine had this very thing happen, and in addition to trying to help their kids not feel suicidal, and trying to get their peers to accept them, they are also now fighting with people who feel compelled to tell them what to do for their kids' health and sanity.
I just wish people would let the people it affects make the decisions they need to make without harassment and judgment.
I feel like I agree with half of what you say and disagree with the other. I wouldn't say I am pro or anti trans rights, in so much that I agree that a person should be able to live how they wish within the rules of society. But I perhaps don't extend that to them having the right to tell others how to think.
I would never be rude to a trans person intentionally and would do my best to address them how they wish. I wouldn't however accept the demand that they are treated as the opposite sex in situations where biology matters (medical, sport, changing rooms, prisons etc). It's sad that in having what I would call a balanced opinion, would actually be seen as offensive by many.
Probably my most 'controversial' opinion in the context of your post is that I think it should be illegal for anyone who isn't an adult to have any kind of medical intervention to change gender, be is surgical or via medication.
It might make it clearer if I define terms. A trans person (in my definition) is switching from whatever their original gender was, to the other gender. It's not being a transvestite, and it's not someone who is gay and acting butch or femme or whatever. The person is taking steps (medication, surgery) to become the other gender.
When it comes to sport (I might say high school is exempt), they should do an X-Y chromosome test. It doesn't matter what gender you are or were, it only matters if you have the X or Y signifier. This is for sport at elite level (college, Olympics, pro).
Changing rooms if done correctly are private, so it shouldn't matter. Maybe a rethink on how changing rooms are done is in order.
Prison is a different animal. If you put a biological female in a general pop of men, even if they identified as male, they are not going to be safe (is my guess). I don't know how they figure this one out.
For the last point, why should young people give up their entire childhood and young years, living in the wrong body? Especially if they can begin the transition to the other gender in time to experience the joys of being a teenager in the right body.
Remember, I have several friends whose kids are going through this right now, and because they waited until they were 18 (in two of the cases) it has been a real nightmare. Another is only 13 and is doing better. Anyone who is interested should try and find some examples of people who have transitioned talking about how it would have changed their lives if they could have done it as a teen. (I don't have any links).
But I will admit that before I personally knew these kids and their parents, I didn't understand it. I thought it was a mental health problem. Once you talk with these people and realize how much happier they are now, and how miserable they were, because (in their view) they were imprisoned in the wrong body their entire lives. Imagine what that must be like. One of my friends who fully transitioned (male to female) still only dates girls. It's not even a sex thing, it's an identity thing.
They weren’t born a man; they were born a baby boy. It all depends on when they went through the transition. If it was after puberty, yes, they would enjoy extra muscle mass, larger frames, etc. if they transitioned before puberty, the advantages would probably disappear. That swimmer who did it after already competing at collegiate level is probably an outlier. The point is, if people were given the therapy and surgeries they needed as youth, instead of fighting and having to wait until their adult years, this would be rare.
i really don’t know what specific things or laws you’re referring to, but the laws in the US are definitely transphobic and anti-trans.
You can't let children transition! That's lunacy. They're children. They don't know anything! There's a couple of years at most between kids stopping believing in Santa, and kids starting puberty....and they should be exposed to concepts like picking gender?! Come on, this is just daft. That's bad parenting.
I’m talking teenage years.
Advocating for surgery pre-puberty? That’s crazy!! Offer counselling and support sure, but a child should not be given that responsibility when they lack the emotional maturity to make the decision.
Even in mid teens - high school age is too young!
The hormone replacement starts at 14, early puberty. Surgeries are a bit later, 16 or 17. I think you need to find some first hand accounts, because it will surprise you. They are as sure of their gender as you are. It’s not like experimenting with being gay or whatever.
https://apnews.com/article/gender-transition-treatment-guidelines-9dbe54f670a3a0f5f2831c2bf14f9bbb
But teenagers are going through puberty already... And teenagers are still immature children. They can't make decisions either.
I’m guessing you don’t have kids? Puberty can start anywhere between 9 and like 15, but 13-14 is most common. You should listen to them Instead of telling them what you think they should do. If it’s not you, your family, or your friends, be grateful because it’s rough. If you do meet someone who it affects directly, just listen.
This is a very different discussion but, to be blunt, it's a bit of can of worms, isn't it?
You have to be 18 to vote, 16 to legally consent to sex, 18 to gamble, and you can't even purchase certain media until you're 18, all because you're not considered mentally developed enough to make an informed decision on these things, yet young teenagers (or even younger again when you consider puberty blockers) are capable of making an informed decision on taking potentially life-altering hormones therapy and a bit later undergoing certainly life-altering medical procedures?
It's a bit of a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason - "it's not a phase, mom!"
Teenagers and kids are sure as shit of a lot of things until they're not, why is this an exception?
How many times do you need to be told or read that young teenagers pre puberty or during are taking puberty blockers and not hormone therapy.
Maybe I've phrased that incorrectly, but are puberty blockers not a form of hormone therapy, given that my understanding is that their sole purpose is to stop the body's production of the hormones that trigger puberty?
As for what you seem to be describing as hormone therapy, which I'm assuming is the taking of opposite sex hormones, the poster I responded to said that hormone replacement starts at 14 years old. How is a 14 year old not a young teenager?
they can realize at preschool age they are the wrong gender outwardly. So around 5. There was a 5 year old in my son’s class who was super angry all the time because his parents dressed him like a boy. He got angry when they cut his hair because he said “they won’t know I’m a girl!” This kid, Watson, was an absolute terror, totally bullied the other kids. Then one day her parents capitulated and allowed her to wear girl clothes to school from then on, and to style her hair like a girl, and she became sweetness and light. Night and day personality switch.
So at what age would it be appropriate to let Watson begin to resemble the girl she was in the inside? She felt like there had been a terrible mistake made by God. Get her the blockers and then surgery she needs so that she can start to live her life. It’s not a casual choice. You should read up, because I think you’re making a common mistake and equating gender with sexuality.
(Continued) Watson identified as female as a 5 year old at the latest. She lived as female for the next 9 years before she could start the blockers. Anyone who met her after she became female would not know, and that’s the point: let these kids enjoy their lives instead of living a lie. It’s not a teenager choice. It’s a years-long process. The kids that are truly trans, and not simply gay, or transvestite, it’s their identity.
I agree it is a very drastic decision, but they know that too. I know there are some who stop halfway, but this is kind of a whole new world we are in, in terms of acceptance and options and understanding what they are going through. The gender reassignment is also very expensive, so many who would get it simply can’t afford it. This is way more common than it used to be. Until I met that kid Watson, I knew zero trans people. Since then, that number is close to 20. Not too long ago, being gay was listed as a mental illness. This is similar. The hesitation by outsiders, like us, is Because we imagine it would be experimenting as the other gender, but we know we would eventually switch back to our real gender. This is exactly what these kids feel. They know their real gender.
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You can really tell the posters who have zero experience with children or teenagers with gender identity issues.
You're advocating surgery and serious heavy medication/intervention whatever for little kids? Do you know how fecked up that is?
In many many cases it is apparent very early that there is a gender issue. At that point, subject to hugely extensive medical review by specialists and experts, preventing the onset of puberty until someone is older is a hugely beneficial action. My nephew did not get this help and it made life far far harder than neccesary.
There's a trans girl in my daughter's class at school. My daughter came back from hockey with a black eye yesterday after getting an elbow in the face from this kid. Who is, by all accounts, a very nice person, day to day, but bigger/stronger than the other girls in the class and apparently extremely aggressive in the way she plays hockey. I've been dipping in and out of this transgender in sports debate in an entirely abstract way up until now. It all feels a lot more real as of the last 24 hours.
To be clear, I'm sure there have been plenty of "cis girl vs cis girl" black eyes over the years, so I'm keeping this all in perspective. Just all seems a lot more real when your own kid walks onto a pitch with someone born a different gender.
My comments weren't about sport specifically and that line of discussion is probably better done in the other (not sport related) transgender thread.
It sounds like you are being very considered in your response when it is your kid with the black eye.
I don't really want to get into specific individuals too much because a) it's too emotive and b) it's all anecdotal. However, I'll address some of this post in sections:
If the school are happy with it, there's nothing wrong with Watson attending school in a dress or, as you've put it, "resemble the girl she was in the inside". This is very different to medical transition.
While we're talking anecdotally, my sister in law absolutely refused to wear her school uniform from around 5-years-old through to about 10/11-years-old. Instead, she pretty much exclusively wore cargo pants and rugby shirts, and was generally a typical 'tomboy'. I don't believe she ever claimed to be a boy, which is obviously a difference, but the fact remains she grew out of it and, while she's still very sporty, is very much a 20-something woman.
I'm just going to ignore the "God" comment because that's a whole different can of worms again.
You also need to stop telling people to "read up" because you have no idea how much reading they've done on the subject.
I'm not equating gender with sexuality (or indeed sex) at all. I'm not even sure what's given you that impression.
The crux of it is that we recognise that children/teenagers lack the ability to make informed decisions on many aspects of life, and as such, they are legally ring-fenced from them, but this is somehow different?
Again, they can't consent to sex, they can't vote, they can't gamble, and they can't buy a ticket to see Saw X in the cinema.
This reads as contradictory to me.
It's a decision they begin to make and consider as younger children, but at the same time it's a drastic decision?
Regardless, the point remains that they're surely too young to be making any informed decision on these potentially irreversible medical treatments?
And this is basically the point I'm making. Some of these treatments are irreversible. There is a severe gap in studies on the long-term effects of puberty blockers (anecdotally, a friend was prescribed what is the same drug for something, but was only allowed to take it for three months due to the potential long-term side-effects), let alone the potentially permanent effects of starting hormone replacement therapy or the definite irreversible changes of undergoing surgery.
What's wrong with simply letting these kids live and dress how they want (within reason, of course) and see how things go as they grow up?
I obviously can't speak for the care received by your nephew, but the UK's gender services are essentially being shut down in disgrace because of how poorly they've handled the care of those referred to them. This includes, perhaps most notably, placing individuals on medical pathways with little to no supporting research.
We should want these things to be extensively reviewed by medical experts, but from what I've read, I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.
The way I think about is that the challenges this presents for me/my daughter are nothing compared to the trans girl and her parents. For example, a big part of most Irish kids formative experience as a young teen is spending a few weeks over the summer in the Gaeltacht (a sort of Irish language summer camp, where kids go and stay with host families and do a load of sports and fun stuff while working on their Irish) This girl’s parents have been told that none of the host families will accommodate their child. Which must be heartbreaking. And I do have some sympathy with the host families, as the accommodation usually involves shared bathrooms/bedrooms etc The whole thing is horribly difficult and complicated. So a black eye playing hockey is fairly insignificant, in the grand scheme of things.
The main problem in these discussions is that you have 10% of people who are genuinely worried about women sports and 90% of people who have never watched a women sports event in their life and just don't like transgender people. This second set of people will pretend to be in the first one 100% of the times.
Tavistock was closed because it couldn't keep up with demand for its services. The Cass report recommended multiple centres be opened on a regional basis, rather than one centre in London.
The reality is that increased demand has lead to long waiting lists. It would take years for young people to even get a first appointment - they are certainly not being rushed into treatment - anything but.
The solution isn't to deny young people the care they need because they're deemed 'too young', and instead force them to suffer through years of puberty which will have potentially detrimental effects on them in later years; it's to provide the facilities and care to ensure the correct medical treatment is available for each individual on a case by case basis.
That's a very selective view of the report considering it also found that the Tavistock had woeful to non-existing record keeping, and that the medical pathways had little in the way of supportive evidence.
I meant "read up" as "read up on people's first hand experiences", because what you keep doing is repeating the same argument from your perspective - which is not adequate. I infer from your writing that you don't have children of your own, so you are operating from your own experiences of becoming a teenager 10, 20, 30 (?) years ago. Your personal experience is not as relevant as someone who is a trans person. You keep positioning this discussion as if trans people are adopting a lifestyle choice, and you are using the same language as people who are hostile to LGBTQ. You sound like you don't have any first-hand interactions with trans people. That's why I am urging you to read their personal stories.
They are experiencing depression, suicidal thoughts (and actions), and other ways of self-harm because they are forced to be outwardly opposite to what they feel inwardly. If they were supported when they were younger, they would be happier. By denying teens the right to begin transitioning, you are essentially asking them to waste their teenage years.
• On the positive side of the equation, what continually surprises me is the mind-body alignment that brought about an indescribable amount of inner peace and calm. It was a state of being I could only achieve in the past through temporary and often self-destructive means.
• I spent several years thinking about medical transition before I took the steps, and the delay was 100 percent fear based. I wish I had known that while stabbing myself with a needle sucks, being able to look in the mirror and actually like the person I see makes it all totally worth it.
• I wish I had known just how embracing who I really am would dramatically bring me back to life. I spent half my life ashamed and scared of who and what I was.
• What I'd want my pre-transition self to know is that however more difficult life gets, fighting the world as your authentic self is better than fighting yourself on behalf of the world. Nothing is worse than constantly beating yourself up. I felt like I'd been renting a space in my body for what seemed like an eternity. Nothing feels more exciting, scary, and wonderful than deciding to really move into yourself. I like people to know just how much happiness was waiting for me after my transition.
• Knowing that there is something other than grief that can sit in this body has been so, so powerful.
• I knew when I was 3 years old. I was assigned female at birth, but I distinctly remember someone saying, “Oh, what a cute little girl.” And I said, “I’m not a girl. I’m a boy.”
• Keeping a secret that big just wears on you. Waking up every day just trying to find another excuse not to transition just made me want to cry. Coming out and transitioning was like removing the biggest weight in the world off my back. It was such a sense of relief.
• Before transitioning, I was completely numb. I didn't feel happiness or joy, nor sadness or sorrow. I felt dead on the inside, like I was acting out a script someone else had written for me. After deciding to transition, it was as if all my life the whole world had been a sepia movie, and all of a sudden it got colors. I started feeling lots of things for the first time — even being sad was amazing because it meant I was alive.
• Before deciding to transition, I had suicidal depression and anxiety, and a strong tendency to sabotage myself. I was very successful professionally, but always felt I was an impostor. Now, my depression is gone, and anxiety is greatly reduced. I am the happiest I have ever been in my adult life.
• Before, I was anxious, depressed, suicidal, miserable, and scared. I didn't experience much emotional range. I had no idea how it felt to be happy or in love.
• Before, I was incredibly depressed and angry at all times. I honestly don't know how I was able to function. It felt like I was in a dark pit I couldn't see the end of. I felt completely alone and powerless.
https://www.self.com/story/before-transitioning
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-m...voices-post-kff-survey-transgender-americans/
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinekee/people-talk-about-transitioning-and-mental-health
https://www.theproudtrust.org/trusted-adults/coming-out/supporting-young-people-with-transitioning/