Mossad were on holiday 2 weeks ago but they're back at work now.I've pointedly not joined the calls to lay blame at one side or another, because all the 'evidence' posted so far is not evidence. Though I struggle to believe anything coming from the IDF at all. They do after all have history for doing something, lying about it and then admitting it later once it's not as politically painful.
However, they've gone from having literally no clue at all about the attacks last weekend.....to being in hamas telegram channels which outline exact attack plans and intercepting a call from 2 hamas members saying exactly what they need the world to hear? After initially saying simaltaneously it was both hamas and PIJ?
How convenient.
The Israelis are known liars. They lie repeatedly to cover up their crimes. They weren’t even subtle about it this time round with the hospital bombing.
Don’t agree. I think it’s a cynical point. Of course it matters where and why people die. It matters who killed them. If it was an accident or an attack it matters who ordered it. Yes, people are dead no matter what. But these things influence how we deal with this conflict going further. They influence international support or criticism.
And we can actually see that they matter. In these discussions, in the news, at protests and everywhere. They are obviously significant.
At least to me. And I think to others as well.
But sadly this thread has very largely succumbed to people choosing sites and just trying to advocate for their cause.
Where as Hamas are a bunch of honourable, trustworthy gentlemen.
Mossad were on holiday 2 weeks ago but they're back at work now.
I think this "evidence" isn't going to change anything. Pro-Israelis are going to see it as proof but people against Israel, a country well known for killing civilians and lying about it, aren't going to be convinced.
100% this.
It’s as though people obsess so much about a specific atrocity they lose track of the bigger picture. It was the exact same thing last week when the narrative on social media was all about babies that may or may not have been beheaded, despite knowing for a fact that hundreds of Israelis of all ages had definitely been slaughtered in cold blood by Hamas. Which was really all that mattered.
This hospital thing is becoming a distraction to the bigger picture. Gaza is being bombed back into the stone age. That’s what matters. Not the exact cause of just one of many explosions that happened there over the last week.
Can I blame social media?
We already know Israel are levelling Gaza and civillian infrastructure, we already know Hamas are firing rockets from amidst civillian infrastructure. The risk both sides take is that something like this happens and, guilty or not, they get blamed for it happening. It's one group of known liars who could easily lie about hitting a hospital versus another group of known liars who could easily lie about hitting a hospital. With little hard evidence backing either claim up.
Unless/until we see investigations and evidence from 3rd parties, people are just feeding into the propaganda fight when they say "X did it", as you clearly can't know from the evidence presented so far.
And, in big picture terms, I doubt it matters to most people doing the speculating anyway. It's not like this will suddenly 180 their opinion of the IDF or Hamas.
Where as Hamas are a bunch of honourable, trustworthy gentlemen.
The Israelis are known liars. They lie repeatedly to cover up their crimes. They weren’t even subtle about it this time round with the hospital bombing.
If their PR manager made a post then deleted it, and so far they’ve changed their story regarding the hospital 3-4 times, what does that tell you? The international community needs to hold them to account. Enough is enough.
I disagree. These events are part of the bigger picture. They are moments of further escalation. They are the base for new hatred and violence. They matter. It matters who did it and why. Same with the story about the babies. There are differences between acts of war and war crimes. Even if the lines can be extremely blurred.
The idea that this doesn’t matter because people die anyway and it’s likely that nobody serves prison time for this, is something I can’t agree with. There is a difference between accidentally hitting civilians and targeting them. There is a difference between lone soldiers and the like committing atrocities and people in command actually ordering them. These things all matter. They are the pieces that make up the whole bigger picture.
They are the basis for judging what actually transpired here. And it baffles me that people on here disregard these events as something that has no importance. They are incredibly significant. And considering the arguments made by many people on here on how they formed their opinions in the conflict as a whole, where they stand and why they do so, shows me that they actually matter to them. They matter like turning of the water supply. They matter like attacking hundreds of people at a music festival.
It all matters.
I don't know how you cope with it tbh, it's easy for people like me to dip in and out of this thread when we please but you're actually having to live amongst it all.Indeed.
This isolated incident again shows that there's no room for a middle ground (i.e. me saying that we can't and won't know what happened).
everything goes to the black and white.
This entire 'conflict' in a nutshell.
Indeed.
This isolated incident again shows that there's no room for a middle ground (i.e. me saying that we can't and won't know what happened).
everything goes to the black and white.
This entire 'conflict' in a nutshell.
It would matter if the two sides who are in this are capable of empathy, forgiveness, admitting fault, and a willingness to move forward in peace.
So, basically, no, it doesn't matter.
They will just proceed to ping the blame to each other which will further fuel new hatred and violence. It's a neverending cycle.
And we're waaaay past any acts of accountability for any of the actions done by either side from a united nations, or EU, or US point of view.
Given that this usually leads to absolutely zero repercussions for Israel, except for the international equivalent of a "strongly worded letter".What usually happens is that, the longer these Gaza wars go, less will be spoken about Hamas because nobody expects anything from them and "it should be taken for granted that they are vile". Until Hamas starts torturing kidnapped people [if at all], nobody is going to talk about what happened on October 7th.
People have already stopped calling for Hamas' head in this very thread. Which is why I keep saying this is PR gold for them, whether they did it or not.
Israel is expected to act more morally than them (sometimes the terrain allows for it, sometimes less so) and once it doesn't- it never does- There will be endless discussions in the UN Security Council calling them war criminals, there will be investigations after it all ends condemning it all...
The Israeli public will then feel that the world is against Israel no matter what, borderline anti-semitic, nobody understands what we're dealing with...
Rinse and repeat.
Only one of them has repeated bombed hospitals and also bombed the same hospital a week ago, while also giving threats of bombing it again.
Do the Palestinians not get their to live their lives peacefully, in their own houses. Something they've not been able to since 1948.Yes it is.
Because if the level of hate that is being spouted on here is anything to go by, it is a sad reflection of the true level of hate being acted upon by both sides in this ongoing conflict.
And caught in the middle are ordinary people just like you and me who are just trying to live our lives as peacefully as possible.
Wouldn't you like Israel to have higher standards than Hamas? If not, what's the point? It's a race to the bottom otherwise.
This stuff is fascinating in a way. Both sides are desperate to win the war of public opinion, and the hospital incident has become latest battle in that war. I'd expect anything in terms of deception from both Hamas and Israel.
Do I believe Israel could fake an intercepted radio message from Hamas? Yes.
Do I believe Hamas would lie about having received a warning prior to the bombing? Yes.
And then you have all the missile and bomb experts on Twitter weighing in to further muddy the picture.
I'll reserve judgement until some independent authority has made a conclusion. Now we just have to determine who is independent in all this. And I totally agree it's another distraction from the larger picture.
Do the Palestinians not get their to live their lives peacefully, in their own houses. Something they've not been able to since 1948.
But there is no middle ground. This is vile and disgusting and it almost doesn't matter who did it because that's what happens and has happened over and over in this war and all wars of this type. This is a symptom of the sickness.
Given that this usually leads to absolutely zero repercussions for Israel, except for the international equivalent of a "strongly worded letter".
What usually happens is that, the longer these Gaza wars go, less will be spoken about Hamas because nobody expects anything from them and "it should be taken for granted that they are vile". Until Hamas starts torturing kidnapped people [if at all], nobody is going to talk about what happened on October 7th.
People have already stopped calling for Hamas' head in this very thread. Which is why I keep saying this is PR gold for them, whether they did it or not.
Israel is expected to act more morally than them (sometimes the terrain allows for it, sometimes less so) and once it doesn't- it never does- There will be endless discussions in the UN Security Council calling them war criminals, there will be investigations after it all ends condemning it all...
The Israeli public will then feel that the world is against Israel no matter what, borderline anti-semitic, nobody understands what we're dealing with...
Rinse and repeat.
All valid opinions.
The parts i don't get - "Israel is expected to act more morally than them" - well, you would actually demand that a democratic legal and moral country behaves more morally then a terrorist organisation, no?
Also, endless discussions in the UN that lead to nothing. Just babble and a verbal slap on the wrist. "Do try and not hit a hospital next time, okaaay?"
"calling them war criminals, there will be investigations after it all ends condemning it all..." - without actually processing any of them?
You know, we (croatians) had a war some 30 years ago, we also had to defend ourselves.
We also did war crimes unfortunately, the difference is, our generals and military personel actually did a lot of time in the War tribunal prison in Hague.
They were held accountable. Some of them lawfuly, some of them were convinced on bullshit crimes, but nevertheless - we were on trial.
Do the Palestinians not get their to live their lives peacefully, in their own houses. Something they've not been able to since 1948.
Given how densely packed Gaza is, and I would guess especially so around a hospital, if Hamas fired a rocket from a car park behind the hospital and accidentally hit it, killing 500 people, then I would assume there would be a number of outraged civilian witnesses that could provide accounts?
seeing as I've been referred to it twice already- I should have stated that I know these denouncements by the UN mean jack shit and won't stop the next war.
I know that the Israeli top-figures won't be on trial, that's the Western bias.
If there's no middle ground then I can't for the life of me understand why this thread is called "Israel-Palestine discussion".
Where is the discussion? What's the point in airing one's opinion here?
How can you say that it almost doesn't matter who did it when:
a) people have been discussing who did it for about 10 pages already
b) this will incite greater anti-Israel demonstrations that will surely have at least so effect on politicians
c) this will have repercussions about what Biden allows/doesn't allow (funny to put it that way) Israel to do next
If it was proven that Israel did it beyond doubt there is a very real chance that a forced cease-fire would have taken place.
Of course it needs to be discussed.
From a twitter account that's been extremely critical of Israel up to now.
The UN shoot themselves a nuke in the foot at their very creation by giving a veto right to the world's biggest powers. From there it could only lead to one path.seeing as I've been referred to it twice already- I should have stated that I know these denouncements by the UN mean jack shit and won't stop the next war.
I know that the Israeli top-figures won't be on trial, that's the Western bias.
Not just the Israeli top figures, any Israeli at all.
Israel hasn't signed the Rome convention and doesn't recognize International criminal court, therefore, Israeli soldiers are free to kill who ever they want and not be held responsible under any circumstance.
Maybe one or two, and that's if they shoot a foreigner or a news crew.
