Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

gfactor86 said:
the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner
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disgusting post.
 
gfactor86 said:
I agree. Nothing happens until both sides are represented by more moderate parties.
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Then why did you try to paint a completely different picture? Instead of spreading misinformation, you could have just wrote this last post.
 
Raoul said:
Neither side are interested in negotiating, which is compounded by the fact that Palestinians are represented by two competing factions, neither of which speak for them as a whole.
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I agree. I also think if Israel had any intention of actually working things out diplomatically or treating the Palestinians like humans they would have already done so in the west bank. For me as terrible as the situation in Gaza is, the situation in the west bank to me shows Israel's true intention, which is from the outside is pretty disgusting.
 
Giggsyking said:
disgusting post.
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how so?

They did vote for Hamas.

hamas wants Israel eradicated that's a FACT. It's in their charter.

Arab neighbours couldn't care less. Egypt shares a border with Gaza. They could take in refugees anytime but don't, because they don't want them and they are happy for it to be "Israel's problem"

thousands of Palestinians languishing in refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon. Never been given full rights there or chance at making a life for themselves in those countries.
 
Giggsyking said:
Did they let the 5m Palestinians return to their land. Who are you kidding? its like people forget that internet exist and you can search every fecking information.
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So we should start calling the evacuation of civilians from the battlefield a crime against humanity? What effects do you think this will have in any future conflict?
 
Carolina Red said:
@gfactor86 - there’s no Hamas in the West Bank, yet Palestinians keep getting killed there. Why’s that?
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20% of the Israeli population are Arab. They have the same rights as everyone else. They can work, choose to be with men or women, they are even represented in the Knesset.

how many Jews live in Gaza?
 
gfactor86 said:
20% of the Israeli population are Arab. They have the same rights as everyone else. They can work, choose to be with men or women, they are even represented in the Knesset.

how many Jews live in Gaza?
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Answer the question

Why do Israelis keep killing Palestinians in the West Bank?
 
People are very keen to rehearse the usual arguments but there's little focus on what's coming next. The analysts I speak to say that when Israel attacks on the ground, Hezbollah are likely to fire a huge number of far more sophisticated rockets into Israel. Israel will retaliate by blowing up Iran's nuclear facilities. And then we will be in a much bigger conflict. In the fog, the Gazans will end up getting ethnically cleansed.
 
gfactor86 said:
how so?

They did vote for Hamas.

hamas wants Israel eradicated that's a FACT. It's in their charter.

Arab neighbours couldn't care less. Egypt shares a border with Gaza. They could take in refugees anytime but don't, because they don't want them and they are happy for it to be "Israel's problem"

thousands of Palestinians languishing in refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon. Never been given full rights there or chance at making a life for themselves in those countries.
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I don’t think Hamas have held elections since they took over in 2006, which is before almost half of Gaza’s current population were born.
 
Raoul said:
Its obviously a tragic situation in that the invasion is almost certainly going to happen very soon, where the Israelis are clearly looking at invading the two northern most sections of Gaza (North Gaza and Gaza City) and fighting the initial phase of the war with Hamas there, then once secured, moving into the other areas. Therefore the people in the northern areas would have to move south or else risk dying. Its going to be a humanitarian disaster either way since there aren't enough resources to provide shelter/food/water/medicine/basic services to those that move. There are also people in the northern sections who for medical reasons, don't have the resources to move. The bottom line, we are going see unprecedented levels of death, destruction, and displacement in the coming weeks and months unless the international community can find a way to temporarily move the civilians from Gaza to a safe space outside the strip until the fighting stops. There are however no easy solutions that are also realistic given that neither the Israelis nor Hamas are going to back down.
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I agree with you about everything in your comment, particularly your last sentence. That's why I firmly believe that we're assisting to a defining moment in human history, where something truly needs to be done.

The world simply can't afford to let the pyromaniacs on both sides keep on playing their suicidal game. There's no winner here.
 
That_Bloke said:
I agree with you about everything in your comment, particularly your last sentence. That's why I firmly believe that we're assisting to a defining moment in human history, where something truly needs to be done.
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What do you suggest? Impose a two state solution on two groups who aren't interested? Wipe out one of them? It worked for the Romans. Which one would you wipe?

VorZakone said:
Why weren't there elections anymore after 2006?
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Because Hamas don't believe in democracy - they are religious theocrats.

To be fair I don't think there have been meaningful regular elections on the West Bank either. Or anywhere else in the Arab world. It's a mistake to project our cultural values onto other countries and people.
 
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gfactor86 said:
the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner
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spoken by someone truly ignorant of the situation. appaling post.
 
Raoul said:
That's not what they're telling them though. They are asking them to move south. In many ways, it is somewhat unprecedented for a military to give a population a 10 plus day warning that their area isn't safe and that they should move further south.
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If you are Palestinian surely you would not trust Israel in giving you back your land. This whole thing smells like Nakba 2.0 especially when you listen to the rhetoric coming from Netanyahu's cabinet.
 
E-mal said:
If you are Palestinian surely you would not trust Israel in giving you back your land. This whole thing smells like Nakba 2.0 especially when you listen to the rhetoric coming from Netanyahu's cabinet.
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You might be right on the Nakba 2.0 thing. Something that wouldn't have happened if not for Hamas' actions two weekends ago.
 
Raoul said:
You might be right on the Nakba 2.0 thing. Something that wouldn't have happened if not for Hamas' actions two weekends ago.
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It’s already happening and been happening in the West Bank for decades though.
 
Carolina Red said:
there’s no Hamas in the West Bank
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Just to clarify this again, not to excuse anything Israel is doing in the West Bank but because it’s important in order to understand what the future likely holds for Nablus and Jenin (at least). Hamas, PIJ, and several other factions are very much present in the West Bank, especially in the north around those two cities. The PA’s authority is increasingly fragile there, especially in the Jenin refugee camp which is a PIJ stronghold from where the attacks in Israel early last year originated. What seemed likely to me recently was Nablus and Jenin gradually becoming mini-Gazas, increasingly ruled by the Islamist factions and subject to Israeli sieges and raids which leave the PA completely sidelined. In fact it might be accurate to say that has been the status in Jenin, or at least it refugee camp, for the last 18 months.
 
I just wonder what it must feel like, to wake up every day in a pressure cooker, for years and years just feeling things ratchet up and having absolutely no control. Just waiting for something to happen, and when it does, it's never going to be good.

Absolutely grim.
 
2cents said:
Just to clarify this again, not to excuse anything Israel is doing in the West Bank but because it’s important in order to understand what the future likely holds for Nablus and Jenin (at least). Hamas, PIJ, and several other factions are very much present in the West Bank, especially in the north around those two cities. The PA’s authority is increasingly fragile there, especially in the Jenin refugee camp which is a PIJ stronghold from where the attacks in Israel early last year originated. What seemed likely to me recently was Nablus and Jenin gradually becoming mini-Gazas, increasingly ruled by the Islamist factions and subject to Israeli sieges and raids which leave the PA completely sidelined. In fact it might be accurate to say that has been the status in Jenin, or at least it refugee camp, for the last 18 months.
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But that's more of a "recent" development? And one has to ask this question, why wouldn't you start supporting the more aggressive movements when you realize that you are at the mercy of settlers and IDF with seemingly no support from the PA's authority or the international community?

It's like mistreating your dog and wondering why he eventually attacked you.

PS: Yes I know, palestinians aren't dogs.
 
JPRouve said:
But that's more of a "recent" development? And one has to ask this question, why wouldn't you start supporting the more aggressive movements when you realize that you are at the mercy of settlers and IDF with seemingly no support from the PA's authority or the international community?
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Yes I think you can probably trace it back about two years from what I’ve read. And I agree it’s probably the inevitable consequence of the situation in the West Bank over the last decade or so.
 
Raoul said:
You might be right on the Nakba 2.0 thing. Something that wouldn't have happened if not for Hamas' actions two weekends ago.
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Are you serious mate? I am not condoning Hamas, but the blockade since 2005 guaranteed that they are damned if they don't and damned if they do. I will fight back if all avenue I have attempted has failed just like the Palestinians did. I only disagree with the targeting of innocent civilians.

If we are going to be honest for once, Israel are never going to give these folks their legitimate right, neither through diplomacy nor violence, with that knowledge in mind I think their choices are very limited if at all existent. Again I do NOT condone targeting innocent civilians.
The UK started this conflict by double dealing but the USA have continued to fuel it by allowing Israel to be an apartheid and self indulging cnuts, and this is coming from someone that truly cares about Israel
 
2cents said:
Yes I think you can probably trace it back about two years from what I’ve read. And I agree it’s probably the inevitable consequence of the situation in the West Bank over the last decade or so.
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That's the timeframe that I noticed but wasn't sure. That gives me the opportunity to make a small point, in the recent death figures in the West Bank the vast majority are supposed to be innocent but a bit more than a dozen are linked to an alleged attempted attack of a military check point with explosives, IDF has made several raids since late August-early September based on that.
 
E-mal said:
Are you serious mate? I am not condoning Hamas, but the blockade since 2005 guaranteed that they are damned if they don't and damned if they do. I will fight back if all avenue I have attempted has failed just like the Palestinians did. I only disagree with the targeting of innocent civilians.

If we are going to be honest for once, Israel are never going to give these folks their legitimate right, neither through diplomacy nor violence, with that knowledge in mind I think their choices are very limited if at all existent. Again I do NOT condone targeting innocent civilians.
The UK started this conflict by double dealing but the USA have continued to fuel it by allowing Israel to be an apartheid and self indulging cnuts, and this is coming from someone that truly cares about Israel
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I think its fair to say the Israeli reaction is 100% based on Hamas' act from two weeks ago. We can go back in time further all the way to be earlier parts of the 20th century, but in terms of the Israeli invasion of the present, it is a direct reaction to Hamas' attack on them 14 days ago.
 
Raoul said:
I think its fair to say the Israeli reaction is 100% based on Hamas' act from two weeks ago. We can go back in time further all the way to be earlier parts of the 20th century, but in terms of the Israeli invasion of the present, it is a direct reaction to Hamas' attack on them 14 days ago.
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Yeah but whatabout... etc
 
2cents said:
Just to clarify this again, not to excuse anything Israel is doing in the West Bank but because it’s important in order to understand what the future likely holds for Nablus and Jenin (at least). Hamas, PIJ, and several other factions are very much present in the West Bank, especially in the north around those two cities. The PA’s authority is increasingly fragile there, especially in the Jenin refugee camp which is a PIJ stronghold from where the attacks in Israel early last year originated. What seemed likely to me recently was Nablus and Jenin gradually becoming mini-Gazas, increasingly ruled by the Islamist factions and subject to Israeli sieges and raids which leave the PA completely sidelined. In fact it might be accurate to say that has been the status in Jenin, or at least it refugee camp, for the last 18 months.
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Sorry…

*there had been no Hamas in the West Bank, yet Israelis kept killing Palestinians

And I’d tend to think along the same lines as what @JPRouve said… any recent growth of militant factions in the West Bank has to be traced, at least in part, to the persistent actions of Settlers and IDF in the West Bank. I also have to consider if it wasn’t the Israeli government’s intention all along for militancy to grow in the West Bank in order to give them an excuse to take more action there.
 
Raoul said:
Sounds pretty imminent.

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Raoul said:
I think its fair to say the Israeli reaction is 100% based on Hamas' act from two weeks ago. We can go back in time further all the way to be earlier parts of the 20th century, but in terms of the Israeli invasion of the present, it is a direct reaction to Hamas' attack on them 14 days ago.
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I understand your point, but looking at the crisis as snapshot from two weeks ago would never solve the problem. The Israelis created the largest prison ever and thought it had never blow up in their face. Except they are ready to murder 2.3 million people, these tactics will never bring peace. They are fighting people who have nothing to loose. The only way to expect peace from your enemy is to give him something he is in danger of losing.
 
Carolina Red said:
Sorry…

*there had been no Hamas in the West Bank, yet Israelis kept killing Palestinians

And I’d tend to think along the same lines as what @JPRouve said… any recent growth of militant factions in the West Bank has to be traced, at least in part, to the persistent actions of Settlers and IDF in the West Bank. I also have to consider if it wasn’t the Israeli government’s intention all along for militancy to grow in the West Bank in order to give them an excuse to take more action there.
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Yes I tend to agree, especially with the bolded.
 
2cents said:
Just to clarify this again, not to excuse anything Israel is doing in the West Bank but because it’s important in order to understand what the future likely holds for Nablus and Jenin (at least). Hamas, PIJ, and several other factions are very much present in the West Bank, especially in the north around those two cities. The PA’s authority is increasingly fragile there, especially in the Jenin refugee camp which is a PIJ stronghold from where the attacks in Israel early last year originated. What seemed likely to me recently was Nablus and Jenin gradually becoming mini-Gazas, increasingly ruled by the Islamist factions and subject to Israeli sieges and raids which leave the PA completely sidelined. In fact it might be accurate to say that has been the status in Jenin, or at least it refugee camp, for the last 18 months.
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I have to somehow get an answer from anyone with a solid knowledge on this very delicate matter and you're one of the posters I respect the most in this thread.

I tried to ask Israeli posters but got no answers. Abbas is toast, everybody knows it. The PA has been a shit show for decades, yet I see one man on that side who was, and imo still is, a valid partner in the peace negociations. That's Marwan Barghouti. What's your take on him?
 
Raoul said:
I think its fair to say the Israeli reaction is 100% based on Hamas' act from two weeks ago. We can go back in time further all the way to be earlier parts of the 20th century, but in terms of the Israeli invasion of the present, it is a direct reaction to Hamas' attack on them 14 days ago.
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Exactly. None of this latest siege would have happened if not for the appalling attacks by Hamas.
 
That_Bloke said:
I see one man on that side who was, and imo still is, a valid partner in the peace negociations. That's Marwan Barghouti. What's your take on him?
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I’d be a bit hesitant to pin much hope on any individual to break the deadlock (you see it with the counter-factual hopes placed on Rabin for example), and I’d worry that the years of imprisonment and time off the scene have raised his stature beyond its worth in terms of peace-making. I suspect his popularity among Palestinians might decline quite sharply were he to emerge from prison and immediately set out to forge a two-state peace with Israel, but perhaps he has the aura about him to overcome that.

From the Israeli side, he’s obviously going to remain suspect as a hero of the two intifadas, particularly the second which, until two weeks ago, was the most traumatic episode for Israeli society in their long confrontation with the Palestinians. And of course as a potentially unifying figure the Israeli anti-peace right that has dominated their governments for almost fifteen years now will be happy to continue to see him rot.
 
If Hamas returned all the hostages then Israel would stop the onslaught. They won't though because Hamas hates the 200 hostages more than it loves the 2m Palestinians that they claim to fight for
 
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