Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Roane said:
Is it wrong to ask why this was? Why the Jews specifically over any other people's?

I was reading some stuff from before the Balfour agreement and there is a quote from a British, Jewish politician (name escapes me) who was dead against a Jewish state.

His reasoning was that once there is a Jewish state the Jews around the world would be homeless. He cited russian Jews as no longer being seen as Russian, with no protection or need for Russia to offer them rights as "true citizens". Because of a nation state. He actually predicted Jewish persecution and lack of rights and them being used as future scapegoats. Then Hitler happened.

I'm no way even suggesting a "bought it on themselves" narrative here. Or anything of the kind. Just interesting that this was a point raised during the very early discussions of a Jewish homeland and by a Jewish person.
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Why can't the Jewish people have one (smaller than Wales) in their ancestral homeland? After the Holocaust the need for a Jewish state was even more of a necessity. Jews needed to be able to protect themselves.
 
Halftrack said:
Does Israel?
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Israel was prepared to offer it 20 or so years ago.

There is no point Israel offering something that they know Hamas is uninterested in. There is no two state solution.

Hamas want a one state solution - ie the end of Israel.
 
frostbite said:


These people grew up with hate and only hate. Their lives have no other meaning except hating Israel. They use their "god" to justify their cruelty. They are the same as ISIS. I don't know how anyone in the West can support these people, they are the opposite of what the West stands for. Karl Popper talked about the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance. We should become completely intolerant of everyone who supports Hamas, they are the same as ISIS or the Nazis, nothing good can come out of them.
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Hamas are a symptom, not the cause of the hostilities between the people. They've only been around for 30 years.

Would you extend the same classification to settlers who terrorise, murder and steal the homes of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank?
 
gfactor86 said:
Why can't the Jewish people have one (smaller than Wales) in their ancestral homeland? After the Holocaust the need for a Jewish state was even more of a necessity. Jews needed to be able to protect themselves.
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The Holocaust wasn't the reason for a Jewish homeland. The discussions had begun in the 1920's. Earlier if you look at the demand from Russian Jews .

The ancestral home argument is void and was a major sticking point for the mandate in the 1920's. Likes of Lord Curzon were against that notion as he didn't feel it had basis.

The size of the land is irrelevant too. Fact is there were people living there who were displaced and l, well robbed. You didn't address my post
 
nickm said:
Israel was prepared to offer it 20 or so years ago.

There is no point Israel offering something that they know Hamas is uninterested in.

Hamas want a one state solution - ie the end of Israel.
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No they weren't. They never have been.

It's in the writings and words of likes of Netanyahu that they needed a Hamas to stop certain things happening. They vested time and money into the creation of them
 
gfactor86 said:
The Jewish people are one of the most persecuted in human history. Ancient Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Spanish, Germans. Have all looked to eradicate them. Israel above any other country possibly should have Nuclear Weapons to ensure its own survival and the survival of the world's oldest religion.
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The Ancient Greeks sought to eradicate jews? I'm unaware of this. When did that occur?
 
gfactor86 said:
Israel are the only country in the world to offer a state to the Palestinian people.
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Have you had a look at these 'offers'? They're riddled with so many caveats, stipulations which at best are criminal, and at worst an absolute fallacy. No dignified person would ever accept those conditions, and Israeli hardliners know this, banking on the fact the Palestinians will rightly turn down these conditions. The status quo benefits them as much as it benefits the like of Hamas - so long as peace is off the cards, they can continue to colonise swathes of the West Bank until the Palestinians have nothing left.
 


The excellent Hind Hassan laying down the reality of Gazan life on GMB.



Surreal footage.
 
Raoul said:
Your hypothetical country would probably get invaded and obliterated and before you had the chance to develop one, especially if you behave as if you may consider using it.

As for your second point. Israel is backed by the US. The fact that they have nukes is a distant consideration.
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And I continue to wonder why North Korea has not been invaded, I dare say that Iran already has one
 
When Israel was established by the British, 73% of the land was granted to Jordan. But you will never see anyone talk about this. Jordan took the majority of the land.
 
gfactor86 said:
When Israel was established by the British, 73% of the land was granted to Jordan. But you will never see anyone talk about this. Jordan took the majority of the land.
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Britain had offered freedom to independent Arab states, including Palestine and Jordan for helping against the Ottomans.

They negated on that promise.

Interesting quote for you from the Jewish Chronicle:

Had Islam not come along, Jewry in the west would have declined to disappearance and Jewry in the east would have become just another oriental cult
 
Jordan could have given sovereignty of the West Bank to Palestinians in 1967. But instead just decided to fight with Israel and lost the West Bank altogether.
 
Roane said:
No they weren't. They never have been.

It's in the writings and words of likes of Netanyahu that they needed a Hamas to stop certain things happening. They vested time and money into the creation of them
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There have been other strains of thought on this in Israel over the years, "never have been" is incorrect. Netanyahu is finished.
 
gfactor86 said:
Why can't the Jewish people have one (smaller than Wales) in their ancestral homeland? After the Holocaust the need for a Jewish state was even more of a necessity. Jews needed to be able to protect themselves.
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From whom? Europeans?
 
Roane said:
Is it wrong to ask why this was? Why the Jews specifically over any other people's?

I was reading some stuff from before the Balfour agreement and there is a quote from a British, Jewish politician (name escapes me) who was dead against a Jewish state.

His reasoning was that once there is a Jewish state the Jews around the world would be homeless. He cited russian Jews as no longer being seen as Russian, with no protection or need for Russia to offer them rights as "true citizens". Because of a nation state. He actually predicted Jewish persecution and lack of rights and them being used as future scapegoats. Then Hitler happened.

I'm no way even suggesting a "bought it on themselves" narrative here. Or anything of the kind. Just interesting that this was a point raised during the very early discussions of a Jewish homeland and by a Jewish person.
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Of course it’s wrong to ask it. It’s anti semitic as feck. Your whole post is.
 
gfactor86 said:
The Jewish people are one of the most persecuted in human history. Ancient Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Spanish, Germans. Have all looked to eradicate them. Israel above any other country possibly should have Nuclear Weapons to ensure its own survival and the survival of the world's oldest religion.
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With this knowledge and experience, surely they must know how it feels to be oppressed and persecuted ? In any case the Palestinians were not responsible for those persecution, so transfer of this aggression seems like the classical ''flat track bully'' and in the long run detrimental to itself
 
That_Bloke said:
That goes without saying, but I'm hoping to see at least all the children, women and elderlies being released, no matter the reasoning behind.
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There were talks about the release of 50 people today, but they seemed to have failed for now.

So tonight, the released were two elderly women.
 
Roane said:
The 20's was to highlight that it was never the intention to accept a two state solution. It never has been and never will be.
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Rabin certainly tried to do that in the 90s. And as I said, Olmert tried to negotiate around 2007-2009. Whether it will ever happen again, I don't know.
 
Amir said:
There were talks about the release of 50 people today, but they seemed to have failed for now.

So tonight, the released were two elderly women.
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Scary that we don’t see their motives clearly. Not sure what delaying the invasion gains them. Perhaps more Palestinian civcas helps the cause. Or perhaps setting up for urban combat.
 
RedTiger said:
You could have had the entirety of Madagascar or even a quarter of Uganda.
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I can't help but feel in these debates, people aren't really debating the location, but the legitimacy of the founding. (For the record, Israel absolutely has a right to exist and the arguments about it's founding are pointless.)
 
nickm said:
Israel was prepared to offer it 20 or so years ago.

There is no point Israel offering something that they know Hamas is uninterested in. There is no two state solution.

Hamas want a one state solution - ie the end of Israel.
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Hamas represents a third of the Palestinian population, and the Israeli offer has been a joke designed to be unacceptable to the Palestinians.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
Also, how is the Israeli public view going now? Less support for a ground operation? More focus on releasing hostages?
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The public has probably softened somewhat. Two weeks ago, a ground operation was the focus - no doubt fueled by people feeling a need for revenge. Now that the abducted have names, faces, stories and families, some people's stance has certainly changed. Not all, though. And the bottom line remains: Israel cannot move on knowing that the thread of Hamas remains just accross the border.
 
Amir said:
Rabin certainly tried to do that in the 90s. And as I said, Olmert tried to negotiate around 2007-2009. Whether it will ever happen again, I don't know.
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Maybe I'm cynical but the killing of Muslims by Baruch Goldstein and his grave becoming a monument of a hero, Hamas retaliation and Likud taking over from Rabin's assassination is too much of a coincidence of wanting peace
 
owlo said:
Scary that we don’t see their motives clearly. Not sure what delaying the invasion gains them. Perhaps more Palestinian civcas helps the cause. Or perhaps setting up for urban combat.
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Or maybe they feel that as time goes by, the memories of the October 7 masscare will fade and people will focus more and more on the deaths in Gaza, with international pressure on Israel to avoid a ground assault.
 
Halftrack said:
Hamas represents a third of the Palestinian population, and the Israeli offer has been a joke designed to be unacceptable to the Palestinians.
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The offer to Arafat was the ballpark maximum possible. Some possibilities around a Jerusalem neutrality zone but I can’t see how he could have been offered much more?
 
Amir said:
Or maybe they feel that as time goes by, the memories of the October 7 masscare will fade and people will focus more and more on the deaths in Gaza, with international pressure on Israel to avoid a ground assault.
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Do you think they are that ignorant to how Israel works when it is hurt so badly though? I believe they know the ground invasion is inevitable now, Israel have no other option. There’s no way that Israel “let’s this go“
 
Roane said:
Maybe I'm cynical but the killing of Muslims by Baruch Goldstein and his grave becoming a monument of a hero, Hamas retaliation and Likud taking over from Rabin's assassination is too much of a coincidence of wanting peace
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You're forgetting the terror attacks in Israel during Rabin's time as PM and Peres's time as Rabin's successor before the election which Netanyahu unfortunately won in 1996. That made a huge difference in public opinion and in the polls.

Goldstein's grave has indeed become some sort of sick hero monument, but the people who view him like that are a small minority.
 
Halftrack said:
Hamas represents a third of the Palestinian population, and the Israeli offer has been a joke designed to be unacceptable to the Palestinians.
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The point is that Hamas would reject it, even if hypothetically israel offered it. All those people who think it is a solution but Israeli intransigence is the problem, don't seem to consider Hamas don't want it anyway. And there is no peace without Hamas, a third or not.
 
owlo said:
Do you think they are that ignorant to how Israel works when it is hurt so badly though? I believe they know the ground invasion is inevitable now, Israel have no other option. There’s no way that Israel “let’s this go“
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I don't know what they know and think. They're not exactly high on options anyway, and it does seem like their stance has at least delayed the Israeli attack, so who knows.

There does appear to be some hesitancy from the Israeli side, possibly due to US pressure to allow time for negotiations to release people.
 
owlo said:
Of course it’s wrong to ask it. It’s anti semitic as feck. Your whole post is.
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Screaming everything is anti semitic doesn't make it anti semitic.
 
Kaos said:
Hamas are a symptom, not the cause of the hostilities between the people. They've only been around for 30 years.

Would you extend the same classification to settlers who terrorise, murder and steal the homes of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank?
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The Nazis were also not the cause but the symptom in 1942. Now, we need to eliminate the symptom and then fix the cause, like Germany was fixed after 1945.
 
gfactor86 said:
No
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You seem to have missed the answer to your question, Redcafe's notification system can be a bit finicky sometimes.

africanspur said:
Ah how convenient. Yet you seem to have sources ready to go for Jihadis apparently infiltrating London protests.

From an incredibly quick google:

Ben Gvir and his Jewish Power Party, in cabinet and 3rd largest party in Parliament, alongside Smotrich and his Religious Zionist party?

How about the prime minister himself, with a map from the river to the sea?
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moses said:
You talk like they are subhuman.

The reality is that they are a broken oppressed people who have all the reasons in the world to hate Israel. Hamas is almost inevitable in the circumstances. They accept being slowly strangled as a people or fight. If you don't allow that fight to be legislative you make violence inevitable. Hate itself is not a crime, because sonetimes it's the natural response. It's where it goes that is the problem and if has to go somewhere.

Israel has all the power and if you insist on the clumsy Nazi comparison it is there it belongs. They have the will, they have the choice and thegly have a militarised state. I would argue they choose murder from a larger menu of choice than any form of Palestinian militants have or will ever have.

Popper would have classed their apartheid state as intolerable intolerance.

I am much more tolerant of David than Goliath, almost always.
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Have you read some of the details of the footage? I don’t think even the most militant Irish nationalist would have tried to excuse or justify this sort of stuff if it was carried out by the IRA?

In another scene Hamas attackers entered a house and spoke to a girl hiding under a table. “After some talking back and forth they shoot and kill her,” tweeted Jotam Confino, one of the correspondents at the screening. “Hard to say how old she is but looks like 7-9 years old.”

Another scene showed a father and his two sons, aged approximately seven and nine, running in their underwear to what appeared to be a bomb shelter. A Hamas attacker threw a grenade, killing the man. The boys emerge bloodied and run. “Dad’s dead, it wasn’t a prank,” one shouts. “I know, I saw it,” replies his brother, later screaming: “Why am I alive?”
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There seems to be a (religion fuelled?) hatred here that goes above and beyond the oppressed striking back at the oppressor. Which is maybe worth talking about?
 
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