I agree.Have you read some of the details of the footage? I don’t think even the most militant Irish nationalist would have tried to excuse or justify this sort of stuff if it was carried out by the IRA?
There seems to be a (religion fuelled?) hatred here that goes above and beyond the oppressed striking back at the oppressor. Which is maybe worth talking about?
Of course it’s wrong to ask it. It’s anti semitic as feck. Your whole post is.
I don't know what they know and think. They're not exactly high on options anyway, and it does seem like their stance has at least delayed the Israeli attack, so who knows.
There does appear to be some hesitancy from the Israeli side, possibly due to US pressure to allow time for negotiations to release people.
Screaming everything is anti semitic doesn't make it anti semitic.
You're forgetting the terror attacks in Israel during Rabin's time as PM and Peres's time as Rabin's successor before the election which Netanyahu unfortunately won in 1996. That made a huge difference in public opinion and in the polls.
Goldstein's grave has indeed become some sort of sick hero monument, but the people who view him like that are a small minority.
For the umpteenth time…But then everyone would have accused them of stealing the Ugandan's land. Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people
It happens both ways - the IDF and settlers are as bad as Hamas when it comes to barbarity. I'm not going to post the videos and clips I have of Gazan babies charred and blackened due to Israel's actions over the last couple of weeks, but that is the reality.Have you read some of the details of the footage? I don’t think even the most militant Irish nationalist would have tried to excuse or justify this sort of stuff if it was carried out by the IRA?
There seems to be a (religion fuelled?) hatred here that goes above and beyond the oppressed striking back at the oppressor. Which is maybe worth talking about?
Israeli settlers killing a baby:autopsy conducted at the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute in Tel Aviv revealed that the teen had soot in his lungs, indicating that he was alive and breathing when he was set alight. He had been forced to swallow petrol beforehand.[51][52][53][54] The burns affected 90% of his body, and it appeared he had sustained head injuries from a beating and had been repeatedly hit in the head with a sharp object,[6][16][55] which at the time was alleged to have been a tire iron,[56] but is now alleged to have been a wrench
Here's the aftermath of that incident:Right-wing Jewish extremist settlers near Nablus firebombed a Palestinian home on Thursday night, starting a fire which destroyed the house and burned a baby to death, as well as severely burning the baby’s four-year-old brother, mother and father.
The baby who was killed in the attack was about 18 months old. He was identified as Ali Saad Dawabsha.
Routine torture of Palestinians:This is precisely what Israeli Jewish settlers were doing yesterday, outside the court in Lod. “Ali was burned, where is Ali? Ali is on the grill!”, they chanted, in reference to the 18-month old baby Ali Dawbsheh, who was burnt alive by Jewish terrorists in the West Bank town of Duma in 2015. Ali’s mother Riham and father Saad died of their wounds a few weeks later. Of the family of four, only 5-year-old Ahmad survived the arson with severe burns.
Doing so with impunity:
Here's a report of how 40% of Palestinian children detained are sexually abused with virtually all tortured when in detainment:people, including children, could be smeared with vomit or urine, be confined in a "coffin", be suspended by the wrists; be denied food and water or access to toilets, or be threatened to have their sisters, wives or mothers raped.[19] Methods, including torture, practiced also on Palestinian children were reported to persist with Amnesty International stating in 2018 that though over 1,000 complaints have been filed regarding these practices since 2001, "no criminal investigations were opened
Look I'm happy to delete the post if it is deemed anti semetic by the mods etc.
But I would question why is it anto semetic?
I was responding to a guy who said the Jews have been persecuted throughout history by different countries, people etc. I'm Muslim and there is a mistrust over the last few years lie I've never known. But I would say Al Qaeda, Isis etc have been the source of that.
This is a people who have lived and worked and been part of communities all over the world. Yet there is factual history of atrocities they have faced. I think it's reasonable at least ponder why the Jews. Throughout history.
The rest of my post is based on actual conversations at the time and by a Jewish person.
The views on what Barak's offer to Arafat actually entailed differ based on whose telling it. The Palestinians were unhappy with the partioning of the West Bank, and the quality of some of the territories Israel was prepared to offer as compensation for territories lost.The offer to Arafat was the ballpark maximum possible. Some possibilities around a Jerusalem neutrality zone but I can’t see how he could have been offered much more?
Both Hamas and Israeli intransigence is the problem.The point is that Hamas would reject it, even if hypothetically israel offered it. All those people who think it is a solution but Israeli intransigence is the problem, don't seem to consider Hamas don't want it anyway. And there is no peace without Hamas, a third or not.
1. Asking what the reason is, that Jews have been one of the most persecuted groups through history. It’s like asking why it is that blacks were enslaved more. It’s a question framed to attribute possible blame to Jews (ie. If Jews acted differently they’d be persecuted less. Jews were persecuted in different ages and regions for different reasons; the rise of Christianity being a major factor
2. The bit about hitler I’m not even sure how to approach, linking a Jewish state to the rise/causes of hitler? I collect 17th/18th century German antisemitic medals….
3. A bad take from one Jew proven wrong by history is meaninglesso, anti semitism was virulent when there was no prospect of a Jewish state, and Jews have not lost national identity since the foundation of a Jewish state. With hindsight, his opinion is simply nonsense.
Im sure @2cents can answer you more eloquently should he choose to. It’s a horrible and ignorant post though.
1. Asking what the reason is, that Jews have been one of the most persecuted groups through history. It’s like asking why it is that blacks were enslaved more. It’s a question framed to attribute possible blame to Jews (ie. If Jews acted differently they’d be persecuted less. Jews were persecuted in different ages and regions for different reasons; the rise of Christianity being a major factor
2. The bit about hitler I’m not even sure how to approach, linking a Jewish state to the rise/causes of hitler? I collect 17th/18th century German antisemitic medals….
3. A bad take from one Jew proven wrong by history is meaninglesso, anti semitism was virulent when there was no prospect of a Jewish state, and Jews have not lost national identity since the foundation of a Jewish state. With hindsight, his opinion is simply nonsense.
Im sure @2cents can answer you more eloquently should he choose to. It’s a horrible and ignorant post though.
I agree that it's a bad question. It's a question, though, asked of someone who is essentially taking the 109 countries meme nazis use and attempting to use it as a defense of Israel. The whole thing is weird.
I agree that it's a bad question. It's a question, though, asked of someone who is essentially taking the 109 countries meme nazis use and attempting to use it as a defense of Israel. The whole thing is weird.
Screaming everything is anti semitic doesn't make it anti semitic.
A collection of thoughts and links from a MENA scholar I respect (but don't always agree with by any means) and who knows the region and the debates surrounding it very well - worth reading through to the extremely grim conclusion (which I find it hard to disagree with unfortunately):
"A categorical assertion: October 7th was the worst day in the history of the Arab-Zionist/Israeli conflict. Ever. Since its origins in the 19th century. This for the reasons specified by Eva Illouz and more: of 14 million Jews and Arabs, evenly divided, living in a land the size of Vermont or Normandy, hating, fearing, and distrusting the other more than ever, with no desire to coexist in the same space but unable to separate. I pronounced the Israel-Palestine conflict to be insoluble years ago but now it is definitive: there is no hope whatever. Except that the conflict can no longer be managed (from the Israeli standpoint) in the way that it has been. And the implication of the rest of the region, notably Iran and its clients, in the conflct, i..e, in a war, cannot be excluded. An apocalypse is not out of the question."
https://arunwithaview.wordpress.com/2023/10/21/the-israel-hamas-war/#comments
It's heartbreaking.
An extraordinary moment tonight. A video released by Hamas shows the moment the two elderly hostages were delivered, in the dark, to representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
Eighty-five-year-old Yocheved Lifschitz identifies herself and confirms her age.
Then, before leaving, she turns to a masked Hamas gunman, shakes his hand and says “shalom”.
Yocheved’s husband, eighty five year old Oded, is still in captivity. He’s a peace activist who’s reported to have spent his retirement driving Gazan cancer patients to hospital in Israel for treatment.
The Hamas was against the Oslo Accord and did its worst to destroy the peace process at the time through suicide attacks. You basically have now the two sides lead by the people who never wanted peace in the first place.Maybe I'm cynical but the killing of Muslims by Baruch Goldstein and his grave becoming a monument of a hero, Hamas retaliation and Likud taking over from Rabin's assassination is too much of a coincidence of wanting peace
This is a genuinely heartbreaking read.
None of the hostages (civilian in particular) deserve this but some of these are so sad to read.
Along similar lines, this from the BBC live feed about one of the two hostages released today:
Again.....awful, awful, awful.
I'd genuinely like to see a post in this thread since Oct 7 that is, in your view, anti-semitic. I'd certainly seen some anti-Arab, and possibly Islamophobic rhetoric, but I haven't seen anything that I'd say is anti-semitic. We had one poster that made some allusions to control of the media I think but I think he cleared up what he meant in a further post about the pro-Israeli lobby.Yea, the guy he’s responding to is either a troll, shill, or heartless bugger, or combination of the above. Not worth engaging with.
It was possibly asked in good faith, though the following post obviously wasn’t. I think a certain amount of anti semitism is rational right now, but its Good to explain why it’s bad.
What are you on about? Why not respond to my actual posts rather than making weird scenarios & shit up in your head.Handshake already being politicised by one of the cranks @The Corinthian is linking above to say, “look, the Hamas fighters arent bad, they treated her well”
I'm certain that they will release more, just to say "See, we're not the monsters the world makes us out to be."There were talks about the release of 50 people today, but they seemed to have failed for now.
So tonight, the released were two elderly women.
I'd genuinely like to see a post in this thread since Oct 7 that is, in your view, anti-semitic. I'd certainly seen some anti-Arab, and possibly Islamophobic rhetoric, but I haven't seen anything that I'd say is anti-semitic. We had one poster that made some allusions to control of the media I think but I think he cleared up what he meant in a further post about the pro-Israeli lobby.
What are you on about? Why not respond to my actual posts rather than making weird scenarios & shit up in your head.
Handshake already being politicised by one of the cranks @The Corinthian is linking above to say, “look, the Hamas fighters arent bad, they treated her well”
Her husband is probably super happy his love is safe. We all die eventually, and he can probably die in relative peace now. (Tiny positive but we cling to those)
Yea, the guy he’s responding to is either a troll, shill, or heartless bugger, or combination of the above. Not worth engaging with.
It was possibly asked in good faith, though the following post obviously wasn’t. I think a certain amount of anti semitism is rational right now, but its Good to explain why it’s bad.
Biden putting pressure on Israel with this tweet?
"We cannot give up on a two state solution."
It's not anti-semitic to ask why Jews are more deserving of a homeland more so than any other demographic. In fact, I'd have no issue with it if it didn't come at the expense, brutalisation and oppression of Palestinians. People who had literally nothing to do with Germans and European anti-semitism in that time period.I just quoted one. And explained why it is so. Your reply to it was quite obviously anti semitic too.
Are you being intentionally dense? His tweet links the article, the article is then posted and quoted from. That's it. And he's not a crank.The Asa Winstanley guy. Perhaps vet the cranks you tweet rather than accusing me of making shit up.
Which is what exactly ?He is a coward, he is more afraid of pro Israeli lobby than a lifetime dent on his conscious. He is 86 years old, has accomplished a lifetime goal of becoming a president with all the power in the world, will be alive at best for 5-10years, only cowardice is stopping him from doing what is right.
This makes no sense as a response. US actually seems to be reigning in the Israeli response - that is unequivocally a good thing for the average Palestinian - and delaying the ground attack. Biden is an old feck and a fool but for once the US is actually behaving ok in a very difficult political minefield and pushing for peace.He is a coward, he is more afraid of pro Israeli lobby than a lifetime dent on his conscious. He is 86 years old, has accomplished a lifetime goal of becoming a president with all the power in the world, will be alive at best for 5-10years, only cowardice is stopping him from doing what is right.
His colleagues are stepping down from editing positions in solidarity with him.Michael Eisen removed as editor of eLife for retweeting the Onion’s dark humour joke (the one discussed before here which was something along the lines of ‘Dying Gazas criticized for not using their last words to condemn Hamas’).
Beyond ridiculous!
Stop the genocide, demand Israel act with restraint, don't fund Israel with bombs against innocent civilians and do what is right by addressing the root cause of the problem. Him of all people should know that violence has not achieved anything, not in Vietnam, Iraqx2 and Afghanistan. It has not brought peace to Israel and would never guarantee peace.Which is what exactly ?
That video is probably one of the more surreal ones I have ever seen.
It's not anti-semitic to ask why Jews are more deserving of a homeland more so than any other demographic. In fact, I'd have no issue with it if it didn't come at the expense, brutalisation and oppression of Palestinians. People who had literally nothing to do with Germans and European anti-semitism in that time period.
Are you being intentionally dense? His tweet links the article, the article is then posted and quoted from. That's it. And he's not a crank.
Explain how supporting Israel with 14 billion dollars in Military support as a way of reigning in on Israel? How about vetoing all UN resolutions to pause hostilities ? They have vetoed all resolutions and singlehandedly done so, clear message to Palestinians where their loyalties lie.This makes no sense as a response. US actually seems to be reigning in the Israeli response - that is unequivocally a good thing for the average Palestinian - and delaying the ground attack. Biden is an old feck and a fool but for once the US is actually behaving ok in a very difficult political minefield and pushing for peace.
It's a recent convert to the cause, I think, not a troll or a shill. Argues similarly to how you often see former evangelical Christians argue for atheism; fervor combined with a clear lack of familiarity. Either a recent political shift, or a discovery due to family ties or a personal relationship. Could in theory be someone very young, but that's not possible due to the 86 plus signup date.
I mean, if you're going to deliberately misrepresent what was said, and not even quote me correctly when there's even a quote function on the page then it just shows your dishonesty in this whole conversation. And then this vague accusation of 'decided to add a few tropes in yourself' - again, it's just made up and probably backs up my original point pretty well.That’s not what he asked though is it. I’ve addressed exactly why his post was anti semitic. Your response that “crying anti semitism doesnt make it anti semitism“ was obviously anti semitic, as you decided to add a few tropes in yourself.
You posted tweets from a guy very visibly supporting Hamas terrorism on his account. You gave him airtime, that’s on you. A guy like that obviously isn’t balanced in views and is a crank.
If you choose to live in world that is removed from planet earth where the US just severs ties with a long-standing ally, sure, we can discuss that world. That’s not, sadly, the world we live in. Of course the US’ official loyalty is to Israel, that’s not going to change.Explain how supporting Israel with 14 billion dollars in Military support as a way of reigning in on Israel? How about vetoing all UN resolutions to pause hostilities ? They have vetoed all resolutions and singlehandedly done so, clear message to Palestinians where their loyalties lie.
That's the whole point though, isn't it. If US wanted to they could change the situation, hold Israel to account, withhold military etc to the point where they're either forced to sit at the negotiating table with the Palestinians or for Israel to just sever ties with the US.If you choose to live in world that is removed from planet earth where the US just severs ties with a long-standing ally, sure, we can discuss that world. That’s not, sadly, the world we live in. Of course the US’ official loyalty is to Israel, that’s not going to change.
No US president would ever deny military aid after such a terrorist attack. Its simply not happening.Stop the genocide, demand Israel act with restraint, don't fund Israel with bombs against innocent civilians and do what is right by addressing the root cause of the problem. Him of all people should know that violence has not achieved anything, not in Vietnam, Iraqx2 and Afghanistan. It has not brought peace to Israel and would never guarantee peace.
14 billion dollar worth of military support for Israel against Hamas and Palestinian civilians ? way to show no bias. One wonders what the difference is between US supported Israel and Iran alleged support for Hamas
It cant be anything remotely racist can it? Not in this exemplary thread.“Your lot” means what exactly? I directly quoted what you said earlier.
