I see. So the people killed and injured in the West Bank in 2023 before October resisted too much and the conditions of life in the West Bank are improved by the oppressor.
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I see. So the people killed and injured in the West Bank in 2023 before October resisted too much and the conditions of life in the West Bank are improved by the oppressor.
Looking for logic from a poster who recommended ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as a harsh but necessary solution for everlasting peace
If Israel has the right to defend itself and as a result is allowed to kill innocent civilians, do the Palestinian people have the right to kill innocent civilians as part of their right to resist?
You've talked a lot about there being no other option for Israel and therefore the bombing of gaza and as a result the death of civilians being the only one available to them. Flipping that around, what option do the Palestinian people in gaza have? as to me the have no options. Therefore would you be comfortable with them killing Israeli citizens as part of their strategy of right to resist.
It's funny that people were concern trolling the left about Hamas not liking any of their values.
Meanwhile Israel twitter account is promoting a video where half of the point is "supporting Palestinians huh... GAY MUCH?!?"
How is this meant to keep Jews safe?
You are creating more radicals.
You are creating more radicals.
I was hoping for the opposite conclusion. I hoped that someone would suggest that palestinians should choose peace at all cost and that violence was always the wrong option.
IDF or Netanyahu don't really have that on their agenda.
Israel won't listen to the US because it can point to Afghanistan and Iraq and say "How is what we are doing any different?"
Unfortunately, what Israel is doing is historically in line with US foreign policy, so in the event the US wants to pursue that same foreign policy in the future it's going to allow its allies to do the same. The only way the US administration tells them to stop is if they believe public sentiment will negatively affect election outcomes for 2024.
What about carpet bombing densely populated civilian areas?
No one is saying that the Palestinians were not in an awful position. The world had largely abandoned them. It's tragic, it sucks. But that does not immediately translate into the 'only option' being what Hamas did on October 7th, and the clear next few dominoes that would fall after that.
Let me try an analogy, and sorry cause there's not a perfect one. Your roof has a leak. But you don't have the right or agency or funds to fix the leak. Every night, a couple drops come down when it rains. At the moment, you just can't see a solution that enables you to plug the leak. So you decide to rip the entire roof off. You have taken action, for sure. There is no longer a tiny leak. But are things with no roof better than the leak?
I don't believe the western world is looking at what is going on and thinking yeah, Israel's doing the right thing here. Every source I follow (Guardian, Atlantic, NYTimes, WaPo etc) are f*cking horrified by the atrocities being committed by Israel. As we all should be. The US President is clearly trying and failing to stop it. I really don't think the world is with Israel on this one.
But how do you stop someone like Netanyahu now? That's the question. He's an old, desperate man who is using October 7th as cover for his new atrocities.
And despite all that, I still come back to the point that this was Hamas' escalation. As awful as the status quo was a month ago, it was a damn site better than today.
Israel aren't targeting civilians. They are exploiting the LOAC to [probably] stay within international law whilst killing terrorists, and not really caring how many civilians they kill doing it. A comparable example would be if hamas launched an atgm at a bus full of people because it had soldiers on it. (though of course they would be terrorists and the response would be 100x as brutal so it wouldn't be advisable)
Israel have a military strategy, as reprehensible as it may be. If the Hamas killings just killed more Palestinians, that wouldn't be effective resistance.
It's why oppressors are so brutal towards resistance. The likes of Iran, DPRK, Lukashenko, Assad, the USA, Spain. The aim is to make it so hopeless that peoples spirits are completely crushed or they leave. That I believe was Jabotinskys plan for the Palestinians.
These guys all share a common bond, they are oppressors who will oppress you anyway, resistance or not. Resistance just makes it far worse. It wasn't a sentence saying 'hey look at all these nice dudes and how well they'll treat you if you behave.'
Just answer the question I asked or ignore it. Don't make up translation and create strawmen arguments.
What are the options at the disposal of palestinians and the point is beyond the past month?
Who'da thunk it
I know what the aim is, it wasn't the question asked but you indirectly responded. Palestinians should suffer and die in silence.
Looking for logic from a poster who recommended ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as a harsh but necessary solution for everlasting peace
Your solution is to have them die after being made destitute and living a life of misery whilst stuck in a large open air prison for the entirety of their lives, is a lot better. Because that's where we're at right now.
But hey, at least you get to pretend you care.
I agree with you, but when I say 'it is what it is' - I mean the Israeli state are locked into a response because of the success of 10/7. Regardless of the root causes, that's how they were always going to respond to an attack of that magnitude. (And see above; I've said there's no justification for the brutality of it) - So essentially it's two things: One is an event a state is locked into, forced into by an external factor (That they were largely/partly to blame for that external factor is irrelevant to the fact that it's simply their response, and there's no stopping it. The other is low level terrorism encouraged by a cadre of far right extremists that the moronic prime minister invited into government so he could cling to power. There's no military justification for it, its terrorism for the sake of being assholes and trying to scare them off their land. As far as I'm concerned, if the Palestinians shot them for it, good riddance. (Not actually, because the army would then murder them but you see what I mean.) - In the past before these lunatics were in the government, the police would have prevented this most of the time.
So yes, although the settler terrorism is causation for palestinian terrorism, it's a mistake to lump the response [to something which was beyond the pale and could only really elicit that response if you know anything about israel] to terrorist settlers who are having their jollies terrorising innocents and have been for years. Settlers are a divisive issue. This was in 2016, but I doubt so much has changed.
If you asked about settlers who are terrorising others, I'm sure it'd be even more divisive. Though the right and religious right are gaining ground there. If you asked about Israeli support for this Gaza invasion, it's probably at about 90%+ and even 60%+ in the Bedouin etc communities.
I'm not sure we're reading this in the same way. There's an ideological divide between right and left sure but what I'm seeing there (and this is not a moral question in this case) is that 2/3 of Israeli Jews think that settlements are either an active help to Israelis security or not a burden. Ie who cares?
And 1 in every 16 Israelis (I imagine the settlers are almost universally Jewish so the proportion of Jewish Israelis will be even higher) are living in settlements deemed illegal by the international community.
What Israel is doing right now, and has done for years basically ensures that they will never know peace. You cannot keep your boot on someone's throat and expect them to be subjugated forever. The solution is equal rights for everyone, and stop stealing the land. You cannot justify occupation and apartheid because Israel thinks Palestinians are inherently savages who will never stop attacking them. Israel is the biggest military superpower there, who have nukes, and US's full backing, its just excuses. Hamas was propped up by the Isreali government exactly for this reason anyway.
No, but that's the reality of the situation. They either resist and it becomes worse for them, or they suffer in silence.
You might be right. (I mean, there's a reason I refuse to go to that damned country.) Here's the whole article. I only skimmed it as I was looking for a survey. https://spink.com/lot/SFW50000205
So, yes? Because here you offered two options and deemed that one was worse, so the best option is to suffer in silence. Which by the way doesn't mean that things don't become worse as we can see it in the West Bank.
In reality what you are offering is one option where things become worse but Israel have the explicit support of the West and an other option where things become worse but with the tacit support of the West. The only difference is cosmetic.
"Go to a person suffering from unbearable, untreatable pain and say here is a drink laced with poison. Drink it and you will feel better."
And then argue "Hey!! At least I have a solution"
The only thing worse than your arguments is your pretense that you care about Palestinians or deaths. At least @Amir is pretty honest with his opinions.
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It's definitely worse if you resist, but essentially its fecked either way yes. Which is why I keep saying the situation is fecking horrific and hopeless, and my whimsical solution which everybody took so seriously was that Palestinians would be better off given a home away from it all, with Israel to pay for it. (Because that can never happen either in the real world.) If you could open the borders and let those who wanted to escape do so, that'd be good too. But Sisi is having none of that.
You mean Amir. And no, I have no desire to see Palestinian suffering or death any more.
All of your suggestions are on what Palestinians, or neighbours should do. You're obviously ignoring the very fecking large elephant in the room time and time again on what Israel should do.
Or the international community embargo Israel on everything which is what they would do to nearly all other countries on earth. As others have mentioned several times the lack of responsibility and agency that is afforded to Israel is amazing, they can at the same time be the oppressor for decades but also have the right to defend themselves. The reason the situation is fecking horrific isn't some sort of inevitable context, it's due to two sides being treated completely unfairly from geopolitical standpoint.
I'd open the borders and let them leave today if I was king of Israel. I've also specifically said what I'd like to see happen. (a long ceasefire until they can get an actual cogent military not politician led strategy in place)
Like they've done to Saudi Arabia for example? The worlds governments care about geopolitics, not people.
Again, if you were King you'd 'let' the Palestinians leave their lands and home? You wouldn't push for a viable two state solution? Or remove the illegal settlements from the WB? End the occupation? I mean, you are King after all and your solution is ethnic cleansing.
That's why I said nearly. Though there is a massive difference betwseen Saudi Arabia and Israel, Saudi Arabia is a key actor when it comes energy and in general the finances of the leading countries. Israel doesn't actual provide anything tangible, it's at best about ideology which is a far more worrying reasoning.
Also Saudi Arabia are widely and openly criticized in the media, it's not that common to find people distorting reality in order to make Saudi Arabia look good.
Here are two options that were available to Hamas on the morning of October 6th:
1. Continue doing what they're doing, whatever that may be. Seeking aid from sympathetic entities, running utilities etc. Burying Gazans killed in sporadic violence.
2. Conduct October 7th and watch what happens.
You very clearly believe, but won't actually come out and say, that 2 was a better choice than 1. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.
Strange that I'm sitting here chatting to you and looking up whisky auctions, and not in some IDF building writing up BM target memos then isn't it.
If I became king today there would be more pressing matters. They'd be quite welcome to return to their newly minted state once Hamas had been eradicated and the infrastructure rebuilt to a level fit for human habitation. 12% of Palestinian kids die to a lack of uncontaminated water. We'd have to fix that first. They also have no governance or money for governance. And I wouldn't need to 'push' for anything if I was king. It would simply happen. The new gas money would come in handy. And those settlers would come in handy too, free forced labour to rebuild gaza for the cnuts.
Who controls Gazan water?
Who destroys Gazan infrastructure?
Saudi Arabia have killed like 200,000 civilians in the last few years I think in Yemen. The UN (i think) described it as a level 8 genocide bordering on a level 9 extermination last year. It's pretty much airbrushed out, as you don't see protests on it in the west at all. Israel is gas rich and provides geopolitical counterbalance and you could argue is a military research arm of the US military.
Israel are widely criticized too, but there's a huge difference between criticism and soft diplomacy, and going the Iran/DPRK route. (And sanctions don't even tend to work for them, they just do what they want anyway.)
That and the strong support amongst servicemen/vets for Israel as well as the general support in the US population, makes me think nothing will really change. Theres no incentive to help the Palestinians more than with soft diplomacy. Hell, even Hezbollah are walking away at this point.
I do hope I'm wrong, but I truly believe 10/7 has made this hopeless for a generation. @That_Bloke has more optimism. I'd pray he's right if I did the whole god thing.
I'm not talking about Hamas. I asked a question about palestinians and the options that the international community gives them.
It's kind of strange that to a question about palestinians you answer with Hamas and also claim that I support Hamas' actions while not addressing the question at all. And yes, I am entitled to my opinion and you seemingly have no clue about it.
To be fair people may not know that it's IDF and that IDF has legal control of the infrastructures.
People may not, but he definitely does.
Their officials are just plain evil..