And I respect you enough mate to accept your disagreement and won't try to desuade you otherwise.
I too hope that things won't kick off, even though Braverman will be wanting it to.
The remembrance activity and associated traditions is on Remembrance Sunday...a whole day after the march.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but -In this country for many people Armistice day and Remembrance Sunday are all part of the same thing, at least for a majority of those who still acknowledge such events. In either case, for a great many people it's not a event/place for 'protest'.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but -
Remembrance Sunday is the Sunday where we see various traditions carried out by the King and royal family and dignitaries i.e. laying of the wreath and march past the Cenotaph.
11/11 is a day where we hold a two minute silence.
Ideally 11/11 and Remembrance Sunday are one on the same, but that isn't always the case.
If the above is correct then there isn't anything happening on the 11th other than a 2 min silence at 11.11am? Or am I mistaken?
Edit: also you must see the irony in you asking for a protest calling for a ceasefire to be cancelled because it's taking place on armistice day...
When I was younger it was Remembrance Sunday, I don't recall a widespread 2 min silence on the specific date until fairly recentlyIn this country for many people Armistice day and Remembrance Sunday are all part of the same thing, at least for a majority of those who still acknowledge such events. In either case, for a great many people it's not a event/place for 'protest'.
But you said yourself in an earlier post: "I happen to think those planning this protest got it wrong, I suspect with a large percentage of the British public, who until now have not really bothered about what is happening in the middle east, would have responded better (i.e. took notice of what is happening) if the protest leaders had said we will suspend the protest for this weekend"The whole thing is a remembrance event, as you say depending on when the dates coincide, will determine, the march past and silences.
The point I am making is this is an event about remembrance and is not and never has been a protest event, about what is happening now.
I repeat what I said earlier, IMO this was a poor decision by the organisers' they would have been better to respect the remembrance views/ethos (which I would say is the majority in this country) and deferred their legitimate protest for this one weekend. I am assuming the intention of these protest marches are to win 'hearts and minds' and so build up pressure on the UK government to try to persuade Israel to seek a ceasefire I suspect this error in judgement of the organisers will 'take the wind out of the sails' of any build up in ongoing protest effect.
When I was younger it was Remembrance Sunday, I don't recall a widespread 2 min silence on the specific date until fairly recently
It's all become very mawkish. I was in Tesco a few years ago and everything stopped for two minutes. I'm all for reminding people of the horrors of war, but if you're in Tesco at around 11am on Remembrance Sunday, it's probably because you're not particularly arsed about it in the first place.There was a minute's silence at every football match last weekend as well.
It's all become very mawkish. I was in Tesco a few years ago and everything stopped for two minutes. I'm all for reminding people of the horrors of war, but if you're in Tesco at around 11am on Remembrance Sunday, it's probably because you're not particularly arsed about it in the first place.
When I was younger it was Remembrance Sunday, I don't recall a widespread 2 min silence on the specific date until fairly recently
Football and sport in general have always done this, but factories, offices, shops and even in the street is not something I recall, I'm sure it happened in some places but not like today, it's a good thing but I just don't remember it like that years agoThere was a minute's silence at every football match last weekend as well.
It's not "inciting a riot" to speak the truth. If she is telling the truth on the police, it is dutiful to say it regardless of how it is received.
Anyone that riots has personal responsibility. In fact, rioting is underreported as a whole within the mainstream media - it happens on a smaller scale regularly in Britain and that's nothing to do with Braverman. There are plenty of people ready to do it, whether it's rioting or looting or whatever nefarious deeds they can get away with. Plenty of stores have a major issue with this in certain areas...and I won't go further than that on this issue because I have a feeling the truth won't be well received but look it up for yourself.
So I wouldn't be ready to blame Braverman for the potential for that.
I took part in more than a few as a scout and later as an Air Cadet on Remembrance Sunday, also "sold" poppies in the weeks leading up to it, and as you say it was generally like that.That's true to some extent.
I can recall for many years past and still today on Remembrance Sunday, the local Boys Brigade, Scouts, Girl Guides, Sea Cadets, Air Cadets and so on and probably a brass band, will together with local dignitaries, local MP, Mayor, Councillors etc. Also some ex- service men and women, representing, or from the British Legion would carry wreaths and flags and all would march from the town square to the local War Memorial. A short service would be conducted by local clergymen/priests etc. some members of the public, (depending on the weather) with connections with those who had lost their lives in both WW's and other things our government got involved with thereafter, would also attend (I remember once or twice wearing my Granddads medals from WW1). After the laying of the wreaths the 2 minutes silence would be held and the last post played by a trumpeter.
In the immediate area the 2 min silence was observed, but if you were say more than quarter of a mile away, you could tell it was not universally being observed. In some working men's clubs the silence was observed at a different time and it had been known for vehicles passing the war memorial at the appointed time to pull over at 11.00 am.
As far as I am aware this sort of remembrance still takes place in numerous cities, towns and villages all over the UK every Remembrance weekend. There are of course few if any from WW survivors, but their places are now taken by veterans from Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. As well as a ongoing tribute to those who gave their lives in the service of their country, it is in the spirit of remembrance, not of protest.
Already happened in RochdaleWell thanks to Braverman and her insinuations that marchers might deface the cenotaph (even though they are not marching down Whitehall and are in any case marching the day before Remembrance Sunday), there’s a good chance Tommy Robinson and his ilk might start some violence this weekend. And Braverman and the truth are two mutually exclusive concepts. Still, keep fighting the bad fight for this vile woman.
Football and sport in general have always done this, but factories, offices, shops and even in the street is not something I recall, I'm sure it happened in some places but not like today, it's a good thing but I just don't remember it like that years ago
It's actually quite unbelievable that there still are people who think "well, I'll go onto the Caf and unironically stick up for one of the worst people in world's politics". More than unbelievable, it's incredibly disheartening.
The US is strange, Nov 11 is Veterans Day which celebrates all military service except dishonorable discharges past and present, it's a Federal Holiday but most people don't get a day off workIt used to be just the weekend of Remembrance Sunday in the UK. Here it's the 11th November whichever day of the week it falls on.
The US is strange, Nov 11 is Veterans Day which celebrates all military service except dishonorable discharges past and present, it's a Federal Holiday but most people don't get a day off work
Memorial Day which is the last Monday in May is the direct equivalent, that marks those killed in service, this is also a Federal holiday which most people get a day off work for, it also generally marks the start of summer in the US
Poppies are not common, you do see a few here and there but not to any large degree
Commonwealth thing rather than mainly British, it's a big deal in Canada, Australia and New Zealand though the latter two may focus it more on Anzac DayPoppies are mainly a British thing. May 8th is a Public Holiday here in the same way marking the end of WW2 in Europe.
"Fighting on both sides" or similar will be the headline.Well thanks to Braverman and her insinuations that marchers might deface the cenotaph (even though they are not marching down Whitehall and are in any case marching the day before Remembrance Sunday), there’s a good chance Tommy Robinson and his ilk might start some violence this weekend. And Braverman and the truth are two mutually exclusive concepts. Still, keep fighting the bad fight for this vile woman.
They've already shown scant little regard for British history by setting up camp in that area, right next to the cenotaph. What's a little defacement? It wouldn't come as a massive surprise given the levels of respect shown so far and would tally with the Rochdale incident.Well thanks to Braverman and her insinuations that marchers might deface the cenotaph (even though they are not marching down Whitehall and are in any case marching the day before Remembrance Sunday), there’s a good chance Tommy Robinson and his ilk might start some violence this weekend. And Braverman and the truth are two mutually exclusive concepts. Still, keep fighting the bad fight for this vile woman.
there it is!What exactly is the "good fight." Probably not what a mob featuring Islamists believe is good, that is for certain.
Let's follow the logic here.there it is!
Why can't she just say Rupert's name?
Spraying graffiti in Whitehall, climbing on statues, tying flags on statues and the relatively minor infraction of calling for genocide. A few of the things the police allowed the London mob to largely get away with. I think that's quite enough to be going on with and it would be quite interesting to see what the narrative around that would be if committed by a different group. I've certainly seen heavier handed policing and a different reaction to that kind of hooliganism elsewhere which I guess was her point...Do you have any evidence to backup this alleged 'truth'? And while you're at it, what are some of the things she's said you consider to be 'patently true'?
Spraying graffiti in Whitehall, climbing on statues, tying flags on statues and the relatively minor infraction of calling for genocide. A few of the things the police allowed the London mob to largely get away with. I think that's quite enough to be going on with and it would be quite interesting to see what the narrative around that would be if committed by a different group. I've certainly seen heavier handed policing and a different reaction to that kind of hooliganism elsewhere which I guess was her point...
Let's look at some of her contraversial points.
Her rhetoric on immigration - largely correct. It is unprecedented, it is a hurricance in terms of net migration in both legal and illegal routes, it is unmanageable in terms of maintaining living standards in this country and they have been squeamish on it because as soon as you do you are on the shit heap. How about actually managing immigration at a rate that works for this country so that all of our vital services aren't stretched up to and beyond capacity in some cases, and then maybe we can offer a safe haven in the future to the legitimately needy. That would be actual charity rather than a race to the bottom. Immigration isn't the sole reason for these problems, but population growth on this small island is not remotely helping our ability to solve our issues.
Multiculturalism is an abject failure in Britain - also correct. Coexisting without total chaos doesn't mean success or indicate that it is a strength. The mere existence of many different cultures and ethnicities together does not define success, the left like to constantly repeat this kind of mantra and hope it becomes fact. It just means a level of civility currently exists. I say a level of civility because crime in places like London which is supposed to be emblematic of the success of multiculturalism is absolutely appalling. What we actually have is islands of people, especially within certain towns and areas within towns and there has been a distinct lack of integration, and too much of an influx of people over the preceding decades to even make any such integration practical. The dubious fruits of that policy remain to be seen but what exactly is successful about it beyond it happening, and what has it added that was deficient previously?
I'm not making any suggestions about the right to protest, as you have pointed out we have both taken part in marches/protests before, and its something in the UK which is a valid freedom and long may it last.
I happen to think those planning this protest got it wrong, I suspect with a large percentage of the British public, who until now have not really bothered about what is happening in the middle east, would have responded better (i.e. took notice of what is happening) if the protest leaders had said we will suspend the protest for this weekend, then continue thereafter. The publicity for the protesters cause would have been enhanced , because of the decision and thereby would have shot Braverman's fox.
The majority of the press/news vendors will ensure the public are tuning in for the wrong reasons tomorrow and God forbid if anything kicks off, then the next protest will become the 'replay' and the protesters will effectively find themselves protesting in an 'echo chamber'.
I sorry, but I don't agree that there is a relationship/synergy between a 'protest' and a 'remembrance' activity.
It's not "inciting a riot" to speak the truth. If she is telling the truth on the police, it is dutiful to say it regardless of how it is received.
Anyone that riots has personal responsibility. In fact, rioting is underreported as a whole within the mainstream media - it happens on a smaller scale regularly in Britain and that's nothing to do with Braverman. There are plenty of people ready to do it, whether it's rioting or looting or whatever nefarious deeds they can get away with. Plenty of stores have a major issue with this in certain areas...and I won't go further than that on this issue because I have a feeling the truth won't be well received but look it up for yourself.
So I wouldn't be ready to blame Braverman for the potential for that.
Spraying graffiti in Whitehall, climbing on statues, tying flags on statues and the relatively minor infraction of calling for genocide. A few of the things the police allowed the London mob to largely get away with. I think that's quite enough to be going on with and it would be quite interesting to see what the narrative around that would be if committed by a different group. I've certainly seen heavier handed policing and a different reaction to that kind of hooliganism elsewhere which I guess was her point...
Let's look at some of her contraversial points.
Her rhetoric on immigration - largely correct. It is unprecedented, it is a hurricance in terms of net migration in both legal and illegal routes, it is unmanageable in terms of maintaining living standards in this country and they have been squeamish on it because as soon as you do you are on the shit heap. How about actually managing immigration at a rate that works for this country so that all of our vital services aren't stretched up to and beyond capacity in some cases, and then maybe we can offer a safe haven in the future to the legitimately needy. That would be actual charity rather than a race to the bottom. Immigration isn't the sole reason for these problems, but population growth on this small island is not remotely helping our ability to solve our issues.
Multiculturalism is an abject failure in Britain - also correct. Coexisting without total chaos doesn't mean success or indicate that it is a strength. The mere existence of many different cultures and ethnicities together does not define success, the left like to constantly repeat this kind of mantra and hope it becomes fact. It just means a level of civility currently exists. I say a level of civility because crime in places like London which is supposed to be emblematic of the success of multiculturalism is absolutely appalling. What we actually have is islands of people, especially within certain towns and areas within towns and there has been a distinct lack of integration, and too much of an influx of people over the preceding decades to even make any such integration practical. The dubious fruits of that policy remain to be seen but what exactly is successful about it beyond it happening, and what has it added that was deficient previously?
Again not a single fact or viable piece of evidence. Just baseless rhetoric that could have been copied and pasted from any columnist in most of the major ‘newspapers’.
You cite hooliganism at these marches, but how many police have been assaulted, as a metric of violence? The Countryside Alliance had a March against the fox hunting ban where 30 police were assaulted, but headlines go to the pro-non-bombing-of-civilians march - why?
The National Front is reportedly marching on the actual Cenotaph the afternoon of remembrance Sunday, a group with a known far right, violent background, but not a word about this from the Home Sec - again I wonder why?
The MET, an organisation that I have a lot against so am in no rush to defend, have recently said that the ONLY threats that their intelligence has found regarding these marches, is the potential hostile counter-protests from ‘far right and football hooligan’ groups - now I wonder where they got this idea from? Certainly not The Mail with its headline ‘Pray there isn’t a Riot at the Cenotaph’ a notion that nobody was predicting, until Braverman effectively gave them the green light by suggesting the police were powerless, weaponising the poppy of all things, and suggesting that people who ‘hate what this country stands for’ would pose a risk to the Cenotaph and events when the March is set to take place hours after the event on Saturday, and go nowhere near the bloody thing!
BLM marched in London and defaced the base of Churchill’s status. This was a criminal act and the police responded accordingly. The very next week football fans celebrated…something, and the same statue had ‘Chelsea FC’ spray painted on it. Again, no front pages, no speeches from a Home Secretary, nothing - once again I ask you why?
You cite a ‘hurricane’ of immigration and I’ll ignore the ignorant use of ‘illegal immigration’ and simply ask you this - how do you expect an island nation that has neglected the nurturing and funding of all public sectors to fill the vacancies of those same sectors?
And do me a favour on the ‘failure of multiculturalism’ - this nonsense was spouted by a woman of Mauritius and Kenyan decent who’s holding the third most powerful office in the country, serving under our first ever Hindu Prime Minister. I’m not saying the individuals are anything to be proud of, but the fact that she has her platform as Home Secretary disproves her own rhetoric.
Spraying graffiti in Whitehall, climbing on statues, tying flags on statues and the relatively minor infraction of calling for genocide. A few of the things the police allowed the London mob to largely get away with. I think that's quite enough to be going on with and it would be quite interesting to see what the narrative around that would be if committed by a different group. I've certainly seen heavier handed policing and a different reaction to that kind of hooliganism elsewhere which I guess was her point...
Let's look at some of her contraversial points.
Her rhetoric on immigration - largely correct. It is unprecedented, it is a hurricance in terms of net migration in both legal and illegal routes, it is unmanageable in terms of maintaining living standards in this country and they have been squeamish on it because as soon as you do you are on the shit heap. How about actually managing immigration at a rate that works for this country so that all of our vital services aren't stretched up to and beyond capacity in some cases, and then maybe we can offer a safe haven in the future to the legitimately needy. That would be actual charity rather than a race to the bottom. Immigration isn't the sole reason for these problems, but population growth on this small island is not remotely helping our ability to solve our issues.
Multiculturalism is an abject failure in Britain - also correct. Coexisting without total chaos doesn't mean success or indicate that it is a strength. The mere existence of many different cultures and ethnicities together does not define success, the left like to constantly repeat this kind of mantra and hope it becomes fact. It just means a level of civility currently exists. I say a level of civility because crime in places like London which is supposed to be emblematic of the success of multiculturalism is absolutely appalling. What we actually have is islands of people, especially within certain towns and areas within towns and there has been a distinct lack of integration, and too much of an influx of people over the preceding decades to even make any such integration practical. The dubious fruits of that policy remain to be seen but what exactly is successful about it beyond it happening, and what has it added that was deficient previously?
It wouldn't surprise me that all of this rhetoric from Braverman and the Tories in general is to detract attention from the COVID Inquiry findings.
If you don’t think people should be able to march for the end of hostilities between two warring factions on the weekend that celebrates the end of hostilities between warring faction, when do you think they should?
