Westminster Politics

[Balljy]

So, for those yelling to the hills about Labour’u-turn’ on the £28bn Green Plan, would you have preferred them to have “stolen” your vote only to water it down once in power?

No, but we have to take their pledges at face value and if they change their policy we can criticise them for the new pledge if we don't think it goes far enough. It also makes them meaningless and leads to people wondering what they will stick to if voted in.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Guess what Ed Milliband has just said on channel 4 news.
He has actually just said that with the reduced Green Pledge committment (down from £28bn in each and every year down to £5bn) Britain will be... LEADING THE WORLD on green environmental opportunities.

It appeals to the Daily Mail and Express readers to be world bleating.

Starmer has said the UK will have the most sustainable growth in the G7 - nobody has any idea how this will happen though.

All a pack of lies.

 

[Jericholyte2]

No, but we have to take their pledges at face value and if they change their policy we can criticise them for the new pledge if we don't think it goes far enough. It also makes them meaningless and leads to people wondering what they will stick to if voted in.

So you’d rather an incoming government pay no attention whatsoever to economic changes and stick to a pledge ‘just because’?

 

[TwoSheds]

You really think this policy will see the light of day. The nativity is great, perhaps you understand less about politics than everything else.

Magic infrastructure funding is amazing and naturally won't end up like HS2 or Hinckley or that new/dead Berlin airport.

It's not a silver bullet.

HS2 made some cnuts a lot of money, it just can't possibly pay back since they're not going to actually build it. That's exactly what I mean about robbing fecking Tory thieves being the only people who could make such spending a bad idea. Standard government incompetence like the Cambridge guided busway or Millennium Dome have easily paid themselves back through the economy as a whole and many times over at that.

And that's leaving aside that green investment includes things like training ordinary people how to install and maintain EV chargers, home insulation, heat pumps. It's the kind of thing that will pay back far better still even than a big, badly run but not Tory badly run government infrastructure project.

 

[Sweet Square]

So you’d rather an incoming government pay no attention whatsoever to economic changes and stick to a pledge ‘just because’?

3 days from The Guardian

Keir Starmer has said Labour’s policy pledge to spend £28bn a year on green investment is “desperately needed,” as he re-opened an issue that has become a source of tension in the party.

 

[Balljy]

So you’d rather an incoming government pay no attention whatsoever to economic changes and stick to a pledge ‘just because’?

That's not what I said, but it does mean we can criticise it if we don't like the new one. As others have said, and I agree with, the green economy is probably the best investment a country can make at the moment. Creating a green national energy company that would be worth billions in the future has been an open goal that we've missed for a decade now. That's excluding the fact it should be the biggest priority anyway and that Labour were still saying it was necessary as recently as last week.

The fact that they're blaming economic conditions because they made the pledge so long ago just says to me that they shouldn't have promised it at the time. They should have been less specific and stated the amount as a manifesto promise around now.

 

[Sweet Square]

There’s a certain type of labour supporter who just wants a labour government regardless of policy.

They don’t see austerity or no action on climate change as essentially bad things but rather it’s bad because the tories are doing it. Explains how someone can go from wanting to end austerity in 2015 to now arguing for David Cameron policy platform in 2024.

Very strange world.

 

[Balljy]

There’s a certain type of labour supporter who just wants a labour government regardless of policy.

They don’t see austerity or no action on climate change as essentially bad things but rather it’s bad because the tories are doing it. Explains how someone can go from wanting to end austerity in 2015 to now arguing for David Cameron policy platform in 2024.

Very strange world.

Agreed, I think there's labour supporters who will only vote for labour and don't look at the policies of other parties.

How many people have read the Green manifesto in detail for example? In my opinion they're more likely to interest the old just left-of-centre labour supporters than the current version of labour.

 

[Spark]

So, for those yelling to the hills about Labour’u-turn’ on the £28bn Green Plan, would you have preferred them to have “stolen” your vote only to water it down once in power?

Reneging on stated policies before they're in government doesn't mean they're not going to renege on whatever policies they have going into government.

The biggest issue is that Labour are not proposing anything remotely different, seemingly only the same just with more competence and less corruption.

 

[Buster15]

So, for those yelling to the hills about Labour’u-turn’ on the £28bn Green Plan, would you have preferred them to have “stolen” your vote only to water it down once in power?

This wasn't just a standard commitment Labour had made.
It was their flagship pledge to the country. A pledge to differentiate Labour from the Tories.

Ok. I am not naive enough to believe everything a political party says. Far from it.
But Starmer and Reeves and Milliband had repeatedly stressed their commitment to deliver this because of its importance to the country.

 

[Sweet Square]

Agreed, I think there's labour supporters who will only vote for labour and don't look at the policies of other parties.

How many people have read the Green manifesto in detail for example? In my opinion they're more likely to interest the old just left-of-centre labour supporters than the current version of labour.

It will be interesting to see what The Green climate policy will be now after labour backtracking.

I struggle to see how some can go from the Corbyn where austerity was seen as

1. Moral Failing - The weakest in society(mostly disabled people)are punished

2. Class War - Working class people paying for the failures of the rich. Social services cuts instead of increasing taxes in the rich

3. Failed policy - Austerity never works and doesn’t bring about growth.

To now lapping up and defending austerity.

And tbh there are many problems with the social democratic borrowing policy but it isn’t that the Tories have “maxed out credit cards”.

 

[That'sHernandez]

There’s a certain type of labour supporter who just wants a labour government regardless of policy.

They don’t see austerity or no action on climate change as essentially bad things but rather it’s bad because the tories are doing it. Explains how someone can go from wanting to end austerity in 2015 to now arguing for David Cameron policy platform in 2024.

Very strange world.

It’s difficult though because as bad as the labour policies are, the conservatives are much worse and a vote for anyone but labour feels like a waste

 

[Frosty]

It will be interesting to see what The Green climate policy will be now after labour backtracking.

I struggle to see how some can go from the Corbyn where austerity was seen as

1. Moral Failing - The weakest in society(mostly disabled people)are punished

2. Class War - Working class people paying for the failures of the rich. Social services cuts instead of increasing taxes in the rich

3. Failed policy - Austerity never works and doesn’t bring about growth.

To now lapping up and defending austerity.

And tbh there are many problems with the social democratic borrowing policy but it isn’t that the Tories have “maxed out credit cards”.

The Greens lost an employment tribunal bought by Shahrar Ali, who was removed as a spokesperson for his 'gender critical' views: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68250071.

Expect them to become a more hostile space for the trans community going forward.

At the moment I am just not going to vote.

 

[Kaos]

So, for those yelling to the hills about Labour’u-turn’ on the £28bn Green Plan, would you have preferred them to have “stolen” your vote only to water it down once in power?

They could start with earning my vote first. They've so far offered nothing beyond "We're not the Tories", all while trying to out Tory the Tories on a number of soundbite issues like immigration, spending and defence of Israel's war crimes. With all their rolled back pledges I struggle to see what alternative they offer to the status quo.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Agreed, I think there's labour supporters who will only vote for labour and don't look at the policies of other parties.

How many people have read the Green manifesto in detail for example? In my opinion they're more likely to interest the old just left-of-centre labour supporters than the current version of labour.

Well the unfortunate reality of our political system is that only two Parties have a shot of forming a government. We can wish for PR until we’re blue in the face but the reality is the Green Party can essentially put whatever it wants in its Manifesto, because it’ll never have to act on it.

As much as I pray for a green revolution and for Capitalism to collapse, the Greens have only ever had 1 MP. So I can vote with my philosophical heart and go Green, and watch as Sunak sneaks back to No10 for 5 more years of Rwanda, Culture Wars, crumbling schools, public sector strikes, child poverty increases, rise in food & warm banks…

Or I can vote for the only other Party with a viable chance of taking power, with the knowledge that efforts will be made to improve things. Even is that is only minute, it simply HAS to be better than what we have now!

Then we can start putting pressure on Labour to do things, when they’re actually in power and CAN do things.

 

[Jericholyte2]

They could start with earning my vote first. They've so far offered nothing beyond "We're not the Tories", all while trying to out Tory the Tories on a number of soundbite issues like immigration, spending and defence of Israel's war crimes.

So things like improving children’s dental health, ensuring all kids have a FSM option, that mental health hubs will be set up to try to limit gang violence and knife crime (just three off the top of my head) don’t separate them from the Tories?

 

[Kaos]

So things like improving children’s dental health, ensuring all kids have a FSM option, that mental health hubs will be set up to try to limit gang violence and knife crime (just three off the top of my head) don’t separate them from the Tories?

Those aren't exactly the seismic changes you're expecting from an opposition party hoping to take over from a disastrous 14 years of their incumbent rivals. In terms of major policy points like austerity, green sustainability and foreign policy they've completely bottled it in terms of offering a much needed alternative, presumably to cater to donors and the elements of the Tory right support base they're trying to sway. I understand that from a tactical electoral perspective, but it's not exactly enticing for a voter like me and millions of others.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

There’s a certain type of labour supporter who just wants a labour government regardless of policy.

They don’t see austerity or no action on climate change as essentially bad things but rather it’s bad because the tories are doing it. Explains how someone can go from wanting to end austerity in 2015 to now arguing for David Cameron policy platform in 2024.

Very strange world.

Strange if this was true.

Some people want perfection or nothing at all.

 

[Balljy]

Well the unfortunate reality of our political system is that only two Parties have a shot of forming a government. We can wish for PR until we’re blue in the face but the reality is the Green Party can essentially put whatever it wants in its Manifesto, because it’ll never have to act on it.

As much as I pray for a green revolution and for Capitalism to collapse, the Greens have only ever had 1 MP. So I can vote with my philosophical heart and go Green, and watch as Sunak sneaks back to No10 for 5 more years of Rwanda, Culture Wars, crumbling schools, public sector strikes, child poverty increases, rise in food & warm banks…

Or I can vote for the only other Party with a viable chance of taking power, with the knowledge that efforts will be made to improve things. Even is that is only minute, it simply HAS to be better than what we have now!

Then we can start putting pressure on Labour to do things, when they’re actually in power and CAN do things.

I'm actually pretty central politically, probably left socially and centre economically and that's the worry for me with what labour are doing as they're looking like the conservatives from 10 years ago on policies. I may vote labour because my local MP is superb, and has done a lot for the local community but she is the only reason for that and is well aware of what people think about the party in my area at the moment. That will depend on the final manifesto though.

I agree about getting the tories out but it will change nothing long term. PR could happen but it takes a couple of elections where people vote for what they want. it has been close to happening only a decade or so ago, and although not a good version of it could have been a step forwards. PR tends to be end up central with policy due to its nature though, so for people on the left i(or centre left) it's better than what we have now but not ideal.

 

[Mart1974]

things may look bad now but think how bad they’d be if corbyn is elected and your kids are forced to be russian.

When did this come in?

 

[Badunk]

Reneging on stated policies before they're in government doesn't mean they're not going to renege on whatever policies they have going into government.

The biggest issue is that Labour are not proposing anything remotely different, seemingly only the same just with more competence and less corruption.

It's a bit of a clue, though, isn't it?

 

[The Corinthian]

Our country and the people that run it are in the gutter.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

The debt to GDP ratio is forecast at 98.6% by the end of 2024. That is higher than anytime in my lifetime and only the first and second world war have triggered a higher rate.

I understand the household economics are not national economics argument.



Take off the child benefit cap = 3 billion.

Dental care in crisis how much?

Housing capacity crisis 2 million homes shortfall and the UK population to 74 million by 2040 = how much on housing.

NHS=?

Social care ?

Child protection?

Education ?

UK Defence spending post Ukraine war how much extra ?

Policing.

Funding for legal aid.

Road/rail/transport ?

I might come across as a deficit hawk but I don't see and end to the list of things people want the govt to find the money for and its not like we are not running a huge deficit because we are and the era of low interest rates is over.

The UK is 2395 billion pounds in debt.

How much does the UK government spend on debt interest? I asked the internet.


How much interest does the government pay on its borrowing? Interest payments on government's past borrowing are a relatively big cost for government. In 2022/23, government's net debt interest spending was £112 billion, which is equivalent to 4.4% of GDP or 9.7% of government spending.

 

[Jericholyte2]

It's a bit of a clue, though, isn't it?

No, it’s observing that things have changed in the 2.5yrs since they made that pledge.

Imagine if, at a certain point in time, I pledged to save up £30k for a full body tattoo (no idea of the pricing, was just trying to find a good example) and whilst I’m saving I fell in love, got married and had a child. If I still had that goal, given my new circumstances, I’d be deemed crazy and most likely divorced.

I don’t agree with what they've done in the slightest, and will be voicing such in the next local Party meeting, but I’d much rather a Party change before they (hopefully) get elected than reneging once in power.

 

[Vernon Philander]

The Tories are leaving nothing left for future spend (or less than nothing if you take the OBRs damning indictment).

Why are stubborn idealists still bleating on about broken pledges and promises. The picture is getting worse every day, it would be madness to ignore that.

Labour also can’t ignore they’d be pounced upon if they stood their ground on the pledge, given their other opposing key pledge of fiscal prudence. Let them finish the job of being elected and then apply pressure if you wish on these (very critical) areas.

 

[Jericholyte2]

The Tories are leaving nothing left for future spend (or less than nothing if you take the OBRs damning indictment).

Why are stubborn idealists still bleating on about broken pledges and promises. The picture is getting worse every day, it would be madness to ignore that.

Labour also can’t ignore they’d be pounced upon if they stood their ground on the pledge, given their other opposing key pledge of fiscal prudence. Let them finish the job of being elected and then apply pressure if you wish on these (very critical) areas.

Amen!

I’d be very interested to see the ages of these ideological puritanicals, as it seems to me like they’ve never experienced anything other than the last 14yrs and don’t know the extent of what it is we’ve lost in that time.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

The picture is getting worse every day, it would be madness to ignore that

How is the picture getting worse every day? Just the debt, or other things?

Like @Don't Kill Bill was outlining above, the number of things that have been and continue to fall apart is long and growing every day. He can't see an end to it, neither can I.

The essential difference is not between "stubborn idealists" or "ideological puritanicals" and the self styled "Very Practical Men Club" but between those who think we should kick this can even further down the road in order to service our debts (You, Don't Kill Bill, @Jericholyte2, the Tories, Labour) and those who think that if we don't start to invest in stuff now an even bigger reckoning will be due later.

 

[altodevil]

The debt to GDP ratio is forecast at 98.6% by the end of 2024. That is higher than anytime in my lifetime and only the first and second world war have triggered a higher rate.

I understand the household economics are not national economics argument.



Take off the child benefit cap = 3 billion.

Dental care in crisis how much?

Housing capacity crisis 2 million homes shortfall and the UK population to 74 million by 2040 = how much on housing.

NHS=?

Social care ?

Child protection?

Education ?

UK Defence spending post Ukraine war how much extra ?

Policing.

Funding for legal aid.

Road/rail/transport ?

I might come across as a deficit hawk but I don't see and end to the list of things people want the govt to find the money for and its not like we are not running a huge deficit because we are and the era of low interest rates is over.

The UK is 2395 billion pounds in debt.

How much does the UK government spend on debt interest? I asked the internet.


How much interest does the government pay on its borrowing? Interest payments on government's past borrowing are a relatively big cost for government. In 2022/23, government's net debt interest spending was £112 billion, which is equivalent to 4.4% of GDP or 9.7% of government spending.

A lot of that can be attacked by sensible market-driven policies that won't cost the state a penny. Just needs a government with some balls.

 

[Walrus]

Starmer and Labour are twats, but they at least appear to have the interests of the country at heart rather than the blatant cronyism, corruption and self-destruction of the tories.

#1 priority right now simply has to be to get rid of the tories, otherwise it’s just rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic. Once they are gone, it’s time to start holding Starmer to account and push for more progressive policies.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Kemi Badenoch is the UK Secretary of State for Business and Trade.

A spokesperson for Badenoch yesterday told The Journal: “We fully support freedom of speech, but it’s hardly surprising that we don’t want to hand out UK taxpayers’ money to people that oppose the United Kingdom itself.”

The issue was also raised today by SDLP leader and MP for Foyle Colum Eastwood.

Eastwood said he today “submitted Parliamentary Questions about the decision to defund artists in the North on the basis of their constitutional aspirations”.

He said it is “highly irregular for a Secretary of State to intervene to overturn the decision of an independent assessment board to award funding to an artist on the basis of their political aspirations”.

He added: “It would be unacceptable if the British Government had instituted a policy of defunding groups because they support Irish Unity, Scottish Independence, Welsh Independence or any other change to the constitutional status quo.”

This one could be fun to follow. Kneecap are likely to get more and more high profile too.

Kneecap has gained acclaim for their blend of Irish and English rap about the realities of growing up in post-Troubles Belfast. Last month, a film dramatising its rise to fame – and starring Michael Fassbender – became the first Irish language film ever to premiere at the Sundance Film Festival and later won an Audience Award.

https://www.thejournal.ie/kneecap-win-audience-award-sundance-6283072-Jan2024/

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Starmer and Labour are twats, but they at least appear to have the interests of the country at heart rather than the blatant cronyism, corruption and self-destruction of the tories.

#1 priority right now simply has to be to get rid of the tories, otherwise it’s just rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic. Once they are gone, it’s time to start holding Starmer to account and push for more progressive policies.

The Tories need to be pummelled into becoming a fringe party

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Starmer and Labour are twats, but they at least appear to have the interests of the country at heart rather than the blatant cronyism, corruption and self-destruction of the tories.

#1 priority right now simply has to be to get rid of the tories, otherwise it’s just rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic. Once they are gone, it’s time to start holding Starmer to account and push for more progressive policies.

I actually think the left's anger helps Labour because it makes their right of centre framings appear more genuine to untrusting but angry one nation Tories. Your first sentence is why the vast majority of their left wing base will still probably end up voting for them; with the caveat that "interests of the country at heart" is more debatable than I'd like.

 

[Ady87]

Vote Starmer, destroy this current crop of Conservatives, then worry about holding Starmer to account.

Continuing to vote Tory at this point is mental after the last 14 years. They offer nothing positive. Loads of leader changes, corruption, infighting etc - I’m done with it.

 

[Pexbo]

Vote Starmer, destroy this current crop of Conservatives, then worry about holding Starmer to account.

Continuing to vote Tory at this point is mental after the last 14 years. They offer nothing positive. Loads of leader changes, corruption, infighting etc - I’m done with it.

Or vote in Starmer. Have 3-4 years of non-action while the media blame Labour for everything the Tories did in the previous 14 years and the next general election all is forgiven and forgotten and the same Tory party get in with another super majority on an anti-immigration / low tax platform.

 

[Vernon Philander]

How is the picture getting worse every day? Just the debt, or other things?

Like @Don't Kill Bill was outlining above, the number of things that have been and continue to fall apart is long and growing every day. He can't see an end to it, neither can I.

The essential difference is not between "stubborn idealists" or "ideological puritanicals" and the self styled "Very Practical Men Club" but between those who think we should kick this can even further down the road in order to service our debts (You, Don't Kill Bill, @Jericholyte2, the Tories, Labour) and those who think that if we don't start to invest in stuff now an even bigger reckoning will be due later.

Let’s say I agree with you and that it’s a mistake not to invest in these areas.

How do we get realistic action?

Infighting on the Left, hampering the Starmer front and leaving the door slightly open for 5 more years of Sunak and co. Or, get behind the only other party that can win and actually has a good chance on acting on the areas of similar interest. Voting Green etc won’t further the cause under FPTP.

Giving the Tories a sniff at more power is literally kicking the can down the road, in my opinion.

 

[Smores]

The Tories are leaving nothing left for future spend (or less than nothing if you take the OBRs damning indictment).

Why are stubborn idealists still bleating on about broken pledges and promises. The picture is getting worse every day, it would be madness to ignore that.

Labour also can’t ignore they’d be pounced upon if they stood their ground on the pledge, given their other opposing key pledge of fiscal prudence. Let them finish the job of being elected and then apply pressure if you wish on these (very critical) areas.

I'll repeat what I've said to others but you're taking a narrow view of the issue, the OBR is quite clear in it's reports that the cost of delaying net zero impacts future finances negatively and that undermines our ability to control debt. Why you lot keep ignoring this is beyond me.

Like everyone our R-G is bad right now such is the change in the global economy and interest rates. However the economic risks require mitigation and they don't disappear because of politically driven fiscal management. The IMF and OBR are predicting a better R-G and increased slack in economies, 28 billion a year is nothing in that context (see increased defence spending) and supports the growth part of the R-G measure.

We need to spend wisely if we're to limit (not stop) debt growth and that starts with measures that have the best long term outcomes for public finances.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Let’s say I agree with you and that it’s a mistake not to invest in these areas.

How do we get realistic action?

Infighting on the Left, hampering the Starmer front and leaving the door slightly open for 5 more years of Sunak and co. Or, get behind the only other party that can win and actually has a good chance on acting on the areas of similar interest. Voting Green etc won’t further the cause under FPTP.

Giving the Tories a sniff at more power is literally kicking the can down the road, in my opinion.

I've sort of given my opinion of this in my reply to @Walrus above. I think the vast majority of the left will be dragged along kicking and screaming (I will) precisely because the Tories are so fecking terrible. I also think that Labour's right of centre bona fide's are enhanced via left wing criticism. Labour were fine in the polls before the latest U turn. I think they'll be just as fine after it. Hatred of this current crop of Tories is endemic, and that hatred means that the bounds for acceptable opposition policies are probably pretty elastic. There was no pressing electoral need for the latest U-turn. If, at some point, Starmer leads his party so far to the right that he starts haemorrhaging left wing support then the fault lies more with him than with the left wingers he increasingly abandons.

As to how we get realistic action. I don't know. I'm pretty sure, though, that patient silence married to hoping hard enough isn't going to get it done. I'd like to see more concrete plans and a framework of investment presented that highlights both the costs and projected benefits. There's some half decent economic analyses of the benefits of free school meals knocking about. Those are reasonable models for evaluating policies and couching the benefits of social investment in economic terms. This sort of analysis should have been expanded a while ago: This is the policy>This is the method of implementation>This is the cost>This is the expected economic benefit. Analyses of the costs of failing to invest should be highlighted and presented in a similar manner. There's plenty of highly visible projections for future debt repayments, but fewer that analyse the future costs of today's underinvestment. I think redressing this imbalance in reporting and analysis would go a long way to spurring greater action.

I wouldn't be as mad if this money Labour are saving from reneging on their Green Pledge is earmarked for investment elsewhere, but it's not. The entire schtick seems to be to tap a big red sign that says "fiscal rules" while surreptitiously shoving the "social costs" sign in a drawer.

 

[Jericholyte2]

How is the picture getting worse every day? Just the debt, or other things?

Like @Don't Kill Bill was outlining above, the number of things that have been and continue to fall apart is long and growing every day. He can't see an end to it, neither can I.

The essential difference is not between "stubborn idealists" or "ideological puritanicals" and the self styled "Very Practical Men Club" but between those who think we should kick this can even further down the road in order to service our debts (You, Don't Kill Bill, @Jericholyte2, the Tories, Labour) and those who think that if we don't start to invest in stuff now an even bigger reckoning will be due later.

I swear if you’d grouped me in with the Tories in person…!

I want a green revolution, I’m on anti-depressants in part because of the climate crisis, I want something for my 20 month old daughter who has DS to be able to manage for her lifetime, so don’t think for one single second that I’m not gutted about their decision.

But I also know that we have to start somewhere. Labour’s watered-down version is still a distance away from Tory policy of opening more deep sea drilling and coal production.

There has to be a transition (albeit it should have started 30yrs ago) but I’ll take a slow start over sticking my head in the sand, especially when, if you check some of my earlier posts, you see just how broken this country is.

 

[Buster15]

I swear if you’d grouped me in with the Tories in person…!

I want a green revolution, I’m on anti-depressants in part because of the climate crisis, I want something for my 20 month old daughter who has DS to be able to manage for her lifetime, so don’t think for one single second that I’m not gutted about their decision.

But I also know that we have to start somewhere. Labour’s watered-down version is still a distance away from Tory policy of opening more deep sea drilling and coal production.

There has to be a transition (albeit it should have started 30yrs ago) but I’ll take a slow start over sticking my head in the sand, especially when, if you check some of my earlier posts, you see just how broken this country is.

Great post and my very best wishes for both you and your family.
I have 5 young grandchildren. And I also am concerned about the type of planet they will grow up in.
Part of me is optimistic because I am an optimist. That part believes that human ingenuity will be able to solve the climate emergency.

The other part believes it is already too late and global warming is accelerating out of control.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

I swear if you’d grouped me in with the Tories in person…!

I want a green revolution, I’m on anti-depressants in part because of the climate crisis, I want something for my 20 month old daughter who has DS to be able to manage for her lifetime, so don’t think for one single second that I’m not gutted about their decision.

But I also know that we have to start somewhere. Labour’s watered-down version is still a distance away from Tory policy of opening more deep sea drilling and coal production.

There has to be a transition (albeit it should have started 30yrs ago) but I’ll take a slow start over sticking my head in the sand, especially when, if you check some of my earlier posts, you see just how broken this country is.

Yeah I hear you, it is still comparatively better than the Tories but it's an ever dwindling gap which, in my opinion at least, is going to lead to an ever bleaker future.

I think the main fault line here is over the difference between necessary sacrifice and unnecessary capitulation. You and I both think that it is necessary to sacrifice what we consider core principles to kick out the Tories. Fair enough, that's common ground, but there's a point at which you're being asked to give too much even if you're willing to give it. I'd die to save my kids but I don't think it's reasonable to demand my life if all that's needed is my kidney. I think we're past the point of electoral expedience here and fast approaching an ideological realignment of the Labour party to right of centre American democrats.

I agree that we have to start somewhere and there has to be a transition. My fear, ever growing, is that the transition isn't so much between Conservative > Labour as names over the door but the transition Labour>Tory in principles under the floor.