Westminster Politics

Paul the Wolf said:
Starmer may use a big stick within his own party but on a national stage and certainly the international stage I just don't see him lasting very long.
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We will have to wait and see, I don't see how he can do much worse that the present lot.

Britain may not carry the weight it once did, but the world is changing and Starmer will need to recognise the place we fit in the new order.
Which will take another turn if Trump gets back in the US and the EU continues to have trouble with the governments of certain countries like Hungary. I can see other leaders facing problems of their own especially in terms of Nationalistic parties (mainly on the right).

I suspect the test will be the GE outcome, if the polls are right and the Tories are facing melt-down, and Starmer has a large majority, he has a chance. However, with a small majority he will undoubtedly have any number of problems, those that currently exist, multiplied by internal wranglings within the Labour party with what remains of the far left.
 
Maticmaker said:
We will have to wait and see, I don't see how he can do much worse that the present lot.

Britain may not carry the weight it once did, but the world is changing and Starmer will need to recognise the place we fit in the new order.
Which will take another turn if Trump gets back in the US and the EU continues to have trouble with the governments of certain countries like Hungary. I can see other leaders facing problems of their own especially in terms of Nationalistic parties (mainly on the right).

I suspect the test will be the GE outcome, if the polls are right and the Tories are facing melt-down, and Starmer has a large majority, he has a chance. However, with a small majority he will undoubtedly have any number of problems, those that currently exist, multiplied by internal wranglings within the Labour party with what remains of the far left.
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It’s funny reading your posts admitting what a terrible job the Tories have done this last decade after you’ve just spent the last decade on here arguing all their points.
 
Pexbo said:
It’s funny reading your posts admitting what a terrible job the Tories have done this last decade after you’ve just spent the last decade on here arguing all their points.
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With respect I think you ought to read my posts again.
I have pointed towards how the Tories operate, of which the strong point is they have managed to retain power even after all the mis-steps etc. They know generally how to obtain and retain power. Everything from the way they choose their leader, to their ability to the clearly focus on specific policies they pursue, policies that reinforces the position and represents the already privileged in our society. They are, or have been up to the last year or so, clear about what they are doing, at least in their own minds and can seemingly ride out internal battles that would sink other parties.
Their one weakness has been to continually shoot themselves in the foot, the longer they are in power. This always occurs as they near the end, because discipline goes and what is really going on underneath, surfaces.
Even then they are prepared to do whatever it takes to retain power, toss leaders overboard, one after another, and to continually keep trying to move the goalposts.

My presentation has been about their effectiveness in retaining power, not in what they are doing with it. I hope that Starmer is learning how to obtain power then how to use it. In my lifetime only two Labour leaders standout Harold Wilson and Tony Blair both knew how to lead. Wilson's lasting legacy was despite tremendous US pressure he kept us out of the Vietnam War, Blair despite the changes and improvements he made especially in the NHS, his legacy will be the Iraq War/WMD's. I hope Starmer's legacy is to have significantly 'moved the dial' for the benefit of the majority of the population.
 
Quality control
Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
 
Offsideagain said:
Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
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We are not broke.

This is despite the fact that:

From 1694 to 2010 this country racked up £800 billion in national debt.

This government has racked up over £1.6 trillion in debt in 14 years whilst promising to save money due to austerity.

We have accrued more debt in the past 14 years than we did fighting Napoleon, the War of the Spanish Succession, the American Revolution, World War 1, World War 2, gaining an Empire, losing an Empire, and setting up the welfare state.

This Government has spent all that money on cutting services, Brexit and reducing taxes on wealth, but not on income, and as you said - that has been taken advantage of

We need to desperately spend money to fix things. Climate change. Public services. Training people for AI.

We were in a worse position in 1945 and we created the welfare state. That's the scale of thinking needed now.
 
Frosty said:
That's the scale of thinking needed now.
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Exactly, if Starmer gets the massive majority it must not be wasted. The scale of thinking has to be on what will change the lives (move the dial) of the majority of the population. The 'Articles of War' on this need to be drawn up in the first term, the ground laid, etc. It won't be delivered in one term, but it can be defined and agreed. At the same time some emergency help will be needed, in supporting the existing welfare state, NHS, Education and where possible a start made on housing, but the big push will come in the second and hopefully third terms of a empowered Labour Government.
 
Offsideagain said:
Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
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Who exactly are the establishment and the Wokes? Sounds like a boy band or a group of petty criminals from the East End.
 
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The problem with the Tories the last 15 years is that they’ve been doing everything the woke crowd wanted.
 
Offsideagain said:
Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
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What do you think the Tory government over the last 15 years has done for the 'wokes'?
 
Offsideagain said:
Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
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Ah, yes, 'the wokes'.

It's amazing how many have fallen for this rhetoric. The right wing have done a fantastic job of getting the general public to believe that all the problems they have caused, all the miscarriages of justice and all the corruption and inequality they have overseen aren't as bad as the people who have noticed those problems and are justifiably angry about it all.
 
The Corinthian said:
What do you think the Tory government over the last 15 years has done for the 'wokes'?
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No, you misunderstand. He just wants the wokes to stop moaning about stuff.

Granted, people complain more about woke stuff than the actual woke people complain but that's besides the points. The wokes are ruining this empire #backsunak #cuntyhashtags
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Isn't it about time that the far-right nutjobs like Farage and Tice could actually tell someone who the establishment and the elite are?
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That's such a woke thing to say :nervous:
 
Jericholyte2 said:
So, they're going to take medical decision-making away from trained medical professionals, whose role and job is to make people better, to people working for the Department of Work & Pensions, whose role and job is to reduce the number of people on benefits. Person X, who started with anxiety, but has been on a mental health waiting list for 9 months is now full-blown depressed and agoraphobic, will meet with the DWP officer who will rescind their 'sick note' so that they're then being forced in to work. They try it, exaccerbate their issue(s) and, because they've 'broken' the rules of their benefits, they lose financial support, and where does that end...

I can see this policy killing lots of people! Thankfully they won't be in government to actually enact something as cruel as this!

That piece of shit Sunak claims he's on a moral crusade - feck HIM! He's never had to claim a benefit in his life and he never will. If you're on such a moral fecking crusade how about:
  • You move to rejoin the EU so that medicine shortages aren't exaccerbated, so people can maintain their medical needs
  • You move to rejoin the EU so that medical staff can freely move to the UK to work and fill the 170,000(ish) vacancies
  • You pay people what they're fecking worth!
  • You work to fund and staff mental / physical health provisions and things like CAMHS so people can be treated before a condition becomes untreatable
  • You work to restart things like Sure Start so people can have social help to ease concerns that can develop into depression or MH conditions
  • You work to regulate things like ultra-processed cheap food so people aren't forced to eat digestible poison that kills cells and clogs arteries
Instead, you punch down on those who are medically vulnerable, trying their best to (literally) make it from day to day.

What a pathetic excuse for a human he is, never mind a politician!

feck him!
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Agree.

I lost one of my close friends earlier this year who took his own life after a long period of suffering and badly struggling with his mental health and depression. Seeing something like that up close is heartbreaking. This sort of news just comes as a massive slap in the face to those that are similarly affected & struggling to cope.

Just hope this doesn't happen but when you’ve got a moron like this man as your PM then it’s a worry.
 
This has been happening for years:

From 2024:

Coroner criticises benefits rules after vulnerable claimant’s death

DWP missed many chances to act as woman’s mental health declined while under overpayment investigation

https://www.theguardian.com/society...nefits-rules-after-vulnerable-claimants-death

From 2018:

Family of man who starved to death after benefits cut lose case against DWP

Family may appeal in case of mentally ill 57-year-old whose death in 2018 led to new benefits guidelines

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ath-after-benefits-cut-loses-case-against-dwp

From 2015:

Call for publication of review into man who killed himself after benefits cut

UK government asked to publish review into case of Tim Salter, one of 60 investigations into suicides linked to benefit changes

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/11/publication-secret-review-benefits-cut-tim-salter

Thousands have died after being found fit for work, DWP figures show

Campaigners demand welfare overhaul after statistics reveal 2,380 people died between 2011 and 2014 shortly after being declared able to work

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ied-after-fit-for-work-assessment-dwp-figures

From 2014:

‘No one should die penniless and alone’: the victims of Britain’s harsh welfare sanctions

David Clapson was found dead last year after his benefits were stopped on the grounds that he wasn't taking the search for work seriously. He had an empty stomach, and just £3.44 to his name. Now thousands of other claimants are being left in similarly dire straits by tough new welfare sanctions

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions

All evidence that we are too generous with benefits, apparently.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/apr/24/gb-news-can-still-use-politicians-as-presenters-ofcom

Nigel Farage can host GB News show during election, says Ofcom
Media regulator says no clear consensus among British public to ban politicians presenting on news channels

And the funniest thing I've read today:

The public “felt personally well equipped to identify if a presenter might be trying to mislead them”, according to a focus group conducted by researchers at Ipsos

The irony goes off the charts.
 
Pexbo said:
Getting into government with a huge majority because the country is protesting against the Tories, rather than getting into government on the merit of your own popularity and because the country believes in your policies and have granted you a mandate accordingly.

If Starmer does get in with a huge majority but ultimately Starmer and Labour are deeply unpopular, it will be completely unsustainable.

Currently they are the opposition and are being compared to a deeply unpopular government. As soon as they’re in government they’re held to their own standards and they begin to get polls on their own performance as a government and if they’re polling badly things will get ugly quickly.
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I broadly agree, however I do wonder if the Tories have fecked themselves demographically for a generation.

Broadly speaking, the average voter adopts more right wing positions as they get older, while they accumulate wealth, aquire property and form a family. They have "assets" to conserve. For 20 & 30 year olds currently, budgets are tight, home ownership is often a dream and starting a family is being delayed because of the associated costs. For this generation, this will be the Tories legacy, while the older right wing voters slowly die off.

Labour will of course have no short term fix, but I can't help but think there will be everlasting resentment to the Tories for the above, much like there is for Thatcher. In 10, 20 years time people won't remember the confected culture war issue of today. They will remember how the Tories made their life much more difficult.
 
Phil Jones Face said:
I broadly agree, however I do wonder if the Tories have fecked themselves demographically for a generation.

Broadly speaking, the average voter adopts more right wing positions as they get older, while they accumulate wealth, aquire property and form a family. They have "assets" to conserve. For 20 & 30 year olds currently, budgets are tight, home ownership is often a dream and starting a family is being delayed because of the associated costs. For this generation, this will be the Tories legacy, while the older right wing voters slowly die off.

Labour will of course have no short term fix, but I can't help but think there will be everlasting resentment to the Tories for the above, much like there is for Thatcher. In 10, 20 years time people won't remember the confected culture war issue of today. They will remember how the Tories made their life much more difficult.
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Well said.

The culture war nonsense is the crutch they're using as a desperate hail Mary, hoping it gives them some short term wins. In the long term I think they're resigned to being wiped out, so their own strategy on that front is to sabotage things to the extent the situation becomes untenable for the incoming Labour government, hoping voters are stupid enough to hold them culpable and hence flock back to the Tories in consequent election cycles.
 
Phil Jones Face said:
I broadly agree, however I do wonder if the Tories have fecked themselves demographically for a generation.

Broadly speaking, the average voter adopts more right wing positions as they get older, while they accumulate wealth, aquire property and form a family. They have "assets" to conserve. For 20 & 30 year olds currently, budgets are tight, home ownership is often a dream and starting a family is being delayed because of the associated costs. For this generation, this will be the Tories legacy, while the older right wing voters slowly die off.

Labour will of course have no short term fix, but I can't help but think there will be everlasting resentment to the Tories for the above, much like there is for Thatcher. In 10, 20 years time people won't remember the confected culture war issue of today. They will remember how the Tories made their life much more difficult.
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A personality like Thatcher would win an election by a landslide in the political doldrums we have now, for either side.

I dont think the Tories will feel many long lasting effects. In 10 years Labour will be getting long in the tooth and the Tories should have a roster of fresh faces and ideas. People forget, and they grow up a bit as they leave their 20s behind. That leads to a more pragmatic view of politics.
 
11101 said:
A personality like Thatcher would win an election by a landslide in the political doldrums we have now, for either side.

I dont think the Tories will feel many long lasting effects. In 10 years Labour will be getting long in the tooth and the Tories should have a roster of fresh faces and ideas. People forget, and they grow up a bit as they leave their 20s behind. That leads to a more pragmatic view of politics.
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I'm impressed. That last part is condescending even by your standards.
 
11101 said:
A personality like Thatcher would win an election by a landslide in the political doldrums we have now, for either side.

I dont think the Tories will feel many long lasting effects. In 10 years Labour will be getting long in the tooth and the Tories should have a roster of fresh faces and ideas. People forget, and they grow up a bit as they leave their 20s behind. That leads to a more pragmatic view of politics.
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People do forget, but I do think the way the tories have savaged us all (especially the young) won’t be forgotten by a large number of people, with old ‘pragmatic’ tories dying off they will lose a huge amount of voters.
 
11101 said:
A personality like Thatcher would win an election by a landslide in the political doldrums we have now, for either side.

I dont think the Tories will feel many long lasting effects. In 10 years Labour will be getting long in the tooth and the Tories should have a roster of fresh faces and ideas. People forget, and they grow up a bit as they leave their 20s behind. That leads to a more pragmatic view of politics.
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Disagree. People traditionally become more conservative because they become home owners, have children, build savings etc etc and it’s about protecting what they have. The Tories have gone a long way to fecking up that natural progression and more and more people in their 30s, 40s and beyond will have no natural inclination to become more conservative because they have no wealth to protect.

I’m nearing my 40s, a homeowner with children and savings and I have absolutely zero inclination to move to the right because I can see how damaging the lack of socialism has been to the foundations of this country. It’s about a few getting rich and the rest getting nothing. feck that and feck you.
 
Berbasbullet said:
with old ‘pragmatic’ tories dying off they will lose a huge amount of voters.
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'Waiting to fill dead men's shoes' what a political slogan for the 21st Century.

I truly hope the young have a better aspiration for future government than that ;)
 
Berbasbullet said:
People do forget, but I do think the way the tories have savaged us all (especially the young) won’t be forgotten by a large number of people, with old ‘pragmatic’ tories dying off they will lose a huge amount of voters.
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People said the same thing after 2 decades of Thatcher and Major but 13 years later couldn't wait for more Tories. After Blair and Brown Labour were supposed to be finished forever but here we are waiting for a Labour government. Is it really going to be any different this time? I don't think it will.


Pexbo said:
Disagree. People traditionally become more conservative because they become home owners, have children, build savings etc etc and it’s about protecting what they have. The Tories have gone a long way to fecking up that natural progression and more and more people in their 30s, 40s and beyond will have no natural inclination to become more conservative because they have no wealth to protect.

I’m nearing my 40s, a homeowner with children and savings and I have absolutely zero inclination to move to the right because I can see how damaging the lack of socialism has been to the foundations of this country. It’s about a few getting rich and the rest getting nothing. feck that and feck you.
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A lot of young people with nothing will be inheriting a lot of something in the next 10 to 20 years. I reckon we'll see how quickly getting a few quid changes people's feelings toward wealth sharing.
 
11101 said:
A lot of young people with nothing will be inheriting a lot of something in the next 10 to 20 years. I reckon we'll see how quickly getting a few quid changes people's feelings toward wealth sharing.
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With a decimated NHS? The majority of people’s inheritance will be used to pay for care long before they see a penny of it.

My partner’s gran was one of a generation who bought her house for 5 figures and it’s now worth half a million. She’s been in a care home for the last couple of years and there isn’t expected to be any capital left in the home when she does finally pop her clogs. If you think that’s purely an anecdote you’re grossly mistaken.
 
11101 said:
A lot of young people with nothing will be inheriting a lot of something in the next 10 to 20 years. I reckon we'll see how quickly getting a few quid changes people's feelings toward wealth sharing.
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WHO? What world do you live in that won’t see end of life care not eat every single penny of property equity? Those numbers just don’t work anymore. That time is just gone.
 
Tory duty on Ofwat protects profits over reducing sewage pollution, experts say
The Conservatives have pushed through a duty on the water regulator to prioritise growth, which experts have said will incentivise water companies to value their bottom lines over reducing sewage pollution.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ts-over-reducing-sewage-pollution-experts-say
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Also
Labour MPs voted with the government, and it is understood this is because they did not want to be accused of being “anti-growth”.
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:lol:
 
Labour voters - The tories are trying to destroy the country before leaving office so Labour can’t fix anything when in power.

Labour MP’s - It’s actually very smart to help the tories destroy the country!
 
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