I don’t think you can argue that his end return really puts him up with the elite, but from an outside perspective Liverpool are a significantly different beast to the one he took over and I can see how fans would view him as absolutely central to that change. His two major management jobs have been up against Bayern Munich and Man City though, I guess I struggle to see how you can’t contextualise that.
Klopp to leave Liverpool at the end of the season
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I don’t think you can argue that his end return really puts him up with the elite, but from an outside perspective Liverpool are a significantly different beast to the one he took over and I can see how fans would view him as absolutely central to that change. His two major management jobs have been up against Bayern Munich and Man City though, I guess I struggle to see how you can’t contextualise that.
They're different arguments.
Is he Liverpool's best PL-era manager? Quite clearly.
Does that mean he ranks above the best PL managers of all time? No, and a large part of that is him finishing behind Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and finishing 5th after winning them the league.
What context do you want me to add? That without Man City he might never have got the job in the first place, because Brendan Rodgers would have been the one to break Liverpool's title duck?
This implies he's been a challenger every season bar the last 2.
He hasn't been. They've been runners-up only twice.
I actually had to check this as I didn’t believe it was true, but fair point! Winners once and 2nd place twice, in what, 8 seasons? Worse than I’d remembered. I think it’s because it often ‘feels’ like they’ve been right up there. 2 CL finals, an EL final, an FA cup and 2 league cups, all quite well spread out over his tenure, meant that they very rarely had nothing to play for on April/May. That’s my best explanation anyway.
When/where do we think the final show of the farewell tour will be? Glastonbury pyramid stage with an hour long set talking winning mentalities with Jake Humphries?
Maybe look up the context before you start harping on about "contextualising" things, eh?
Don’t be so grumpy, fella!
Wrong thread
When Jurgen ascends to his kingdom in the clouds, and brightens the whole sky by smiling. There will no longer be darkness.
And Jurgen said “let there be light”. and there was light.
Find someone you know who doesn't know anything about football and ask them which of these men was in their job for 26 years winning 38 trophies and which one was 9 years with 5 trophies
Fergie's leaving speech
Klopp's
I don't know if it's in indictment more of our times or just scousers and their insanity. Bit of both I suppose.
Fergie's leaving speech
Klopp's
I don't know if it's in indictment more of our times or just scousers and their insanity. Bit of both I suppose.
Hmm nope not really, that's just yer more revisionim and nostalgia. In the late '90s, you had the Italian clubs being brilliant, granted but not until 1998 did Real even have an impact on the European stage. They'd gone a very long time being behind the elite. Bayern were good but not treble ultra dominant good that can afford to have the best players from outside of Germany like they can now. Dortmund had that incredible run in 1997 but that was far from a great team. Their semi against us was compared and rightly so to their semi against PSG this year. France didn't have an elite team but the Netherlands did in Ajax. Move forward to the '00s and Real went through a period with no 1/4 for something like 6 years. The Italian clubs powers started waning with too old players and they started being overtaken by English clubs superior finances. The Germans haven't had a finalist from 2002 to 2012 whereas Barcelona started growing in the European stage. Throughout all of that, the English clubs only had us to compete until the mid '00s.
The point is there was never a golden era of European clubs. There has always been some clubs at their peak, some not so much and few unexpected clubs in the side. For a Deportivo or Valencia, there is an Atlético Madrid. The reason English clubs did not do well in Europe back then was that the league was too far behind tactically and was too insulated. To win in English required skills leaning more on the physicality and pace and too little tactically and positionally. The gap is smaller now because the league accepted the input of Mourinho, Benitez, Conte, Klopp, Pep and few others and English teams feel more at home playing in Europe.
Nostalgia will convince people everything was better in their day because it tens to squeeze out all the mediocrity and only remember excellence. The likes of Souness says the same thing about how it was in their day and so on ...
Liverpool finished 3rd after winning the league.
Or perhaps an indictment of United and/or your fanbase? Can't believe how muted those celebrations are for a man with Ferguson's success. I know you were celebrating the title as well, but it definitely feels like more could have been put into showing your appreciation for a figure like him.
A reasonable point. We didn't have parades for losing CL finals either. Guess we celebrate differently.
I abstractly understand that attitude but it makes little sense to me. Why would you not want any excuse to celebrate the club's achievements as fans?
Ferguson went and you've not won a "major" trophy since so it's not like that mentality has actually translated into winning things. It seems daft to not celebrate what your club achieves when you have the chance.
...behind Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. They also finished 5th in a separate season that also happened to come after their one league title. I didn't say it was the same season.
I love how much the scousers are going on about how unlucky they were to be going up against Pep's City, what could have been etc.
Both Arsenal and a terrible Manchester United have finished second behind City as many times as them.
Both Arsenal and a terrible Manchester United have finished second behind City as many times as them.
This is genuinely a bit mad really.
I take your point. We didn't know when SAF retired, how shit the next 12 years would be. We just assumed that we'd keep winning. I did. Maybe not winning the title every year, but at least seriously challenge every season and winning every third year or so.
Your time in title wilderness ended so recently that maybe you're able to better appreciate the fact that it could be decades before you get your hands on it again and go all out with the goodbyes.
Liverpool fans are naturally more appreciative because he ended a 30+ year title drought, and they know (from watching us) how difficult it is to replace that.
A packed stadium full of adoring, emotional fans? Seems about right to me.
Thank feck he’s left. Top manager with a style of play that would’ve suited us.
Glad to see the back of him
Glad to see the back of him
Yeah, not the same thing. Arsenal(x1) and Liverpool(x2) challenged City. They took the title race to the last day. We ended up much closer to 3rd than 1st.
I'm not suggesting it's exactly the same but the way the media and scousers go on about it you'd think Klopp would have won nine titles if it weren't for Pep and his cheating paymasters.
It's definitely not a given. However, I can understand the narrative a bit. It's not as simple as them finishing second. The two close races would've given them a PL and CL double and a domestic treble at the very least and possibly (shiver running down spine) a quad. So, in that sense, they were quite close to exceptional seasons.
Plus if they did the PL and CL double in '19 and then win the title in '20, they're starting to build a dynasty and there'll be more motivation to keep it up. The whole winning begets winning thing. We know more about this than any club. On the contrary, they pretty much destroyed themselves just trying to keep up with City. Not to mention, Klopp's football seems to have a single gear.
When they finally won the league they had a relatively shite season the year after and ended up third behind us. Winning begat being quite naff.
to be fair though, when liverpool finished 2nd to city they were genuinely in a title race on the last day. we were 20 odd points back in our 2nd place finish.
When talking about the context of how well he has done, it certainly bears mentioning that he has finished above United in just five of his nine seasons. A historically terrible, utterly dysfunctional United side finished above his "great" Liverpool four times. He has only finished as one of the top two teams in three of his nine seasons there. Three. This in an era where United and Chelsea have been completely adrift, and Arsenal only just got a real team together in the last couple of years.
While there's no doubt that he made Liverpool much better than they were before he arrived, his achievements aren't all that impressive. His one league title was in the Covid season where no other team even attempted to compete, so much so that they were able to win it like nineteen points ahead of City who were defending champions and have won the league ever since. That says a lot about how barely-relevant that season was. And winning the CL is always great, but they had the ridiculous fortune to not only play a final against Tottenham of all teams but also get a one-in-a-million freak handball penalty in the opening seconds of the game. Again, not exactly something that can be credited to Klopp's managerial prowess.
While there's no doubt that he made Liverpool much better than they were before he arrived, his achievements aren't all that impressive. His one league title was in the Covid season where no other team even attempted to compete, so much so that they were able to win it like nineteen points ahead of City who were defending champions and have won the league ever since. That says a lot about how barely-relevant that season was. And winning the CL is always great, but they had the ridiculous fortune to not only play a final against Tottenham of all teams but also get a one-in-a-million freak handball penalty in the opening seconds of the game. Again, not exactly something that can be credited to Klopp's managerial prowess.
Who cares where he ranks in an all time list of PL managers. I think we can all agree he’s a cringy moaning cnut that we’re all glad to see the back of.
Harsh on @roberto de Zerbi
It's based on the fact that Guardiola is just a really good coach. Even though City has their 115 charges, it doesn't diminish his quality. I'm not Guardiola fan boy but the game moved on from the Fergie and Wenger type managers.
Of course it does. If you achieve something by cheating the rules that others abide by, then yes it diminishes that achievement.
Wish I could be this confident when saying absolute rubbish.
It's not rubbish. It definitely moved on since SAF's days. But the question is would SAF have been able to move along, and of course the answer is yes, because that was the reason why he had such a long successful career.
You may regard it as rubbish but even Wenger has said it. Allardyce in an interview a couple years ago has said it. I'm not speaking based on feelings, these are comments made by managers. Gone are the days where you can't think tactically. Neville, Keane, Ole, have all said that Fergie wasn't a tactical manager, and they HARDLY ever did tactical drills. Fergie just had an unbelievable knack in getting the best out of a squad of players and it's why he'd always be regarded as a top-quality coach. These days, you can't just 'get the best out of players". You need to look at data, stats, tactics of your team and the opposition, along with other factors that affect the team on the pitch. Am I saying that Fergie would not have been able to adjust or adapt to modern day football, of course not. But Guardiola is just on another level when it comes to his understanding of the game.
I see your point. Maybe they may not have been able to purchase 2 first teams.
You can be runners up and NOT challenging. You can be challenging on NOT end up runners-up. Either way, the context is looking at the progress and development of any team over a period of time. The problem with modern football is you're not allowed to "have a development" period without being judged or compared to someone else's development. The situation at every club is different. Culture is different. Coach's style is different. Transfer window different. Player quality different. Football isn't a linear sport and I wish people stop comparing clubs.