That’s why I keep saying that we need take a cue from Arsenal and focus on 25 and under players, as it’s a long term project and expensive older players will not benefit us much. You can’t sign a Casmeiro and expect him to play this way - he’s never done it, he’s not young enough to change and moreover he’s never really been the kind of midfielder we needed anyway (helping us control games).
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That’s why I keep saying that we need take a cue from Arsenal and focus on 25 and under players, as it’s a long term project and expensive older players will not benefit us much. You can’t sign a Casmeiro and expect him to play this way - he’s never done it, he’s not young enough to change and moreover he’s never really been the kind of midfielder we needed anyway (helping us control games).
Might have missed it in this thread, but after contemplating whether to keep ETH, the board decides to keep him AND award him a new contract? Why?
Erm, because it's a new season and this manager has proven that he can finish Top3? I dunno, or maybe because he is the manager of the club you support and he is staying here for the foreseeable future? Nobody says he doesn't have fault in how the season unfolded, but the amount of toxicity and low jabs being thrown around at our manager make me feel like I'm on a Liverpool forum.
The lack of self awareness is impressive.You're a Dutch Ten Hag obsessive defending his every move.
Nope, the manager together with the new footballing structure need to lay the rule of the law and stick by it.
Next time our players decide to down tools, they need to get the Bastian treatment: dropped from the starting line and sent to train with the reserves.
The problem was when Woodward was running the roost, he treated players as assets instead of employees, hence some of our players got the impression they were untouchable.
Currently things are starting to change, but we still need to show that downing tools will not be tolerated. If we mean business, people like Rashford need to be sold this summer. His strolling around the pitch and disinterested body language is very poor. Being the talisman and one of the faces our club he influences a lot of the players, including young ones.
If we do that, all the players at our club will get the memo that the days where you can put the bare minimum and steal a living are over.
No guarantees if he starts off badly he’s gone
Yeah. People talk about his going at the owners as if that's something that's gonna make this club better.
He did say multiple times and in various ways last season that he isn't setting up the team to be a heavy possession side like his Ajax teams. He wanted fast, direct football that plays out from the back whenever possible but not emphatically as seen in more controlled possession dominant sides.
This isn't going to help without having a front-foot possession football coach though, right?
When did the players 'down tools' last season?
Was Sancho not given similar treatment? So that should be this culture problem sorted then no?
The culture at a football club comes from the top down, if there's a poor culture then that's because the management team haven't engendered a positive one. Personally I don't think there is a culture problem at United currently and there obviously isn't one that has persevered since the Jose days.
And there it is, 9 times out of 10 when I have this conversation about 'culture' it leads to Rashford.
What's pathetic is so-called adults calling each other cultists because of their opinions on the manager. It's incredibly juvenile.
Quality control
For feck sake, all you do is moan about how Ten Hag has had to endure VALID criticism after guiding us to an 8th place, negative goal difference season.
It was a shit season, with a bunch of injuries, poor tactics, poor leadership from Glazers/Ineos, and a poor transfers. I can see the nuance, not everything is ETH’s fault, of course not.
The most hilarious bit is someone in the Ten Hag in crew actually complained that their feelings were being hurt by the use of the word C U L T. That’s a fecking joke.
I mean, seriously, grown men getting their panties in a bunch because the word
C U L T was used to describe them?
Point out the post.
I also challenge you write a post that isn't riddled with crazy exaggeration.
Exactly. I don't think there's a particular problem with "culture", "players downing tools" or such. We have some players that don't seem that much bothererd like Sancho, and Rashford, but the rest was doing their job quite alright.
It's normal situation to have lower "morale" if you're having record-breaking (in a bad way) season on all fronts, and the manager position is very weak. But this wasn't the players fault in the end, even if we hoped for some individuals doing better.
To reduce his influence and salary I would expect.
I agree with you on Sancho.
But Rashford gets a pass for me if ETH gets a pass. They both did decently last season and then stunk up the place the next.
Yes. Probably to set boundaries for him and maybe insert a lower compensation amount for termination by United if the team is performing badly. This is probably why the details haven't been sorted out yet because it might not be considered acceptable by EtH.
I really don't understand why people are getting so upset about this. We're all United fans, we all want to have a great season next year so honestly, let's just get on with it.
For me INEOS have handled this absolutely correctly, and if everyone wasn't refreshing twitter every 30 seconds there'd be almost no controversy to speak of. ETH undeniably, undoubtedly had a bad season. A negative goal difference is simply unforgiveable, and cannot happen again. I care a bit less about '8th!' because but for a couple very dodgy penalties in the CFC match we'd 6th and no one should care about the difference between 6th and 8th - neither is good enough.
And hence, the management conducted a review of the options for the future. Which had to include actually speaking to those options. And having done that, and factored in the previous season, injuries, the squad condition etc they've decided to give ETH a season to make his plan work.
It's fine if you disagree with that decision, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the way it was done. It was sensible, didn't take too long and is done miles before preseason.
The most important thing now is to fix this broken squad to give ETH the best chance of success. Because Tuchel, Poch or Potter would be just as bad with the XIs typically available to ETH last season.
For me INEOS have handled this absolutely correctly, and if everyone wasn't refreshing twitter every 30 seconds there'd be almost no controversy to speak of. ETH undeniably, undoubtedly had a bad season. A negative goal difference is simply unforgiveable, and cannot happen again. I care a bit less about '8th!' because but for a couple very dodgy penalties in the CFC match we'd 6th and no one should care about the difference between 6th and 8th - neither is good enough.
And hence, the management conducted a review of the options for the future. Which had to include actually speaking to those options. And having done that, and factored in the previous season, injuries, the squad condition etc they've decided to give ETH a season to make his plan work.
It's fine if you disagree with that decision, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the way it was done. It was sensible, didn't take too long and is done miles before preseason.
The most important thing now is to fix this broken squad to give ETH the best chance of success. Because Tuchel, Poch or Potter would be just as bad with the XIs typically available to ETH last season.
But the French league and winning the Bundesliga with Bayern barely scrapping by is of great value to you? ETH CV speaks for itself even without the Eredivisie titles. The job he did in Utrecht was even more spectacular. And I wouldn't exactly put down the Eredevisie down. It's more competitive than the PL these past few years, that's for sure because surely you don't think Oil Club FC winning the title for 10 times in a role is very competitive. I mean Ajax didn't win the league for years prior to Ten Hag and haven't won the league since he left. Their finish last season was... 5th. So yes the work he did with Ajax there is far more impressive than Tuchel winning the league with PSG.
You don't need to come and outright say it for me to understand where you're coming from. It's obvious that your idea is the Chelsea approach - sack any manager that fails and repeat this process ad infinitum. There's time where you need to sack a manager and sometimes you need to give the manager more time. I was in favor in sacking Ole, as I said, I was thoroughly in favor of sacking Moyesy and I was in favor of sacking Jose after his meltdown (even though I did believe he is right, but at that point there was no turning back). LVG I was only in favour of sacking because Mourinho was available whose CV at the time was impeccable. I pointed all of this now just to explain I'm not the type of guy who wants to give every manager time. But sacking ETH now is plain self-sabotage. There's no actual good alternatives and nobody at the market with his CV. He deserves time in a clean environment with none of the Glazer bullshit behind him.
The reason why I criticized Tuchel is because aside from the CL I mentioned... he has done nothing noteworthy in football that would prompt me to sack ETH for him. For what reason? Your logic is that we sack ETH to get someone whose coming from an arguably worse season than ETH, finishing third with Bayern and failing to win zero trophies. There is no logic in that except let's just blindly play whack-a-mole and see what hits. You're not in favor of sacking ETH because you have some plan for this club and where you want it to go, you're in favor because you just want ETH gone.
Am I? When Klopp left Dortmund they finished 9th after a disastrous season. His stock wasn't at an all time highest and many people were saying he was gonna flop in England.
This is a meaningless stat. Going by that logic our last season was one of the best we've ever had yet this is complete nonsense. What matters is the end of the table, how many points you have and your position prior to that. We finished with 64 points under Moyes, only 4 points higher than what we have now yet we were comfortable champions with 11 points difference (if I remember correctly prior to that). We finished 6th prior to Ten Hag coming in with 58 points and few down to 8th with 60 points. Tell me, which is better? Going from champions to not even qualifying for Europe or falling back down to where you were before that? That doesn't even account for the trophies he won which we haven't seen for 8 years or something? Hell, in our treble season we won the league with 79 points drawing like half our games. So what? What matters is our end position, not meaningless stats that don't even paint 10% of the picture, let alone the full picture. I'm not evne gonna begin listing how many issues Ten Hag had to deal with this season
I wouldn't mind if ETH left but I really can't see the link between Rashford and ETH. ETH can be blamed of many things but lack of commitment to the cause/professionalism is not one of them.
I think there'll definitely be a get out clause that won't cost them an arm and a leg. After last season it would be prudent to put something like that in. To be honest, clubs should do it all the time based on the level of performance. Having to pay off a manager for the remainder of their contract if their performance has been disastrous is nuts.
I agree with you. What I criticize is the mode of execution. First of all the review should have been done before the FA cup final. One game shouldn't be enough to influence INEOS decision. Secondly if we were set to replace the manager then everything should have been wrapped up beforehand.
Just saying. I don't think we know for sure that it's because he stopped being professional.
Maybe he was struggling to understand his role in ETH's tactics. Maybe he never gained any confidence or rhythm because of the ever changing line up in midfield and defence. Rashford could've underperformed due to any number of reasons. He's a big reason why ETH ended up 3rd last season. So, it seems a bit unfair to dump on him for the following season but ETH is excused because of circumstances.
Long post, but well argued.
I was on the same boat and ate some humble pie when I saw reports and understood what had happened.
They had decided to sack Ten Hag, agreed. However; this notion that the FA cup final changed it all is somewhat false. Firstly, trophies matter, so it will have an impact during their review.
Secondly, they did act like they were sacking him, they looked at many candidates, so it shows they did not leave any stone unturned in that way. Unfortunately, none of the managers they spoke to instilled any confidence and decided Ten Hag was the best.
You think INEOS handled all this the right way, some of us disagree. My expectation is that a club is able to act and competently (!) approach players as soon as the season is over and they have time to discuss their future. That includes offering them a clear vision of the future and showing them a clear structure who they will work with - the manager/head coach still being the most important figure at the club for a player. So for me they were to slow to act (or to slow to decide on not acting, however you want to see this).
If this was the only issue like this I probably wouldn't mind as much and agree with you, but seeing that United go into the transfer summer without a CEO, without a DoF and with a manager who apparently still needs to discuss new terms with the club is just worrying. At least for Berrada we know when he will start and it's reasonably soon, but the whole Ashworth saga is a disaster. It will be a complicated summer and this way of doing the post season review was just another indicator for it.
As far as I can see that’s flowing both ways
For me it starts with pre-season. Unlike previous pre-seasons where the "it's the fitness that matters, results don't" results will matter this pre-season and performances too. Eth needs to begin implementing any new changes in pre-season and we have to be ready for the new season. This will be his third season so no excuses of starting the season slow. He has to start well and changes need to be obvious. He can't remain stubborn, those last 3 games (minus the Brighton first half) were encouraging but that needs to be the bare minimum not an outlier. By the time we play Fulham, he needs to know his strongest starting 11 and be ready tactically and start firing on all cylinders. I can already feel the excuses, (Players at the Euros are still tired, new transfers haven't bedded in etc) that won't cut it this year. I'll support him but he has to show that he's learnt from that disaster of a season minus the trophy.
I couldn't care less if ETH stayed or left. There were valid arguments in favor of it (he gave youths a chance, he brought discipline back, our financial constraints means we can't spend some 9m-15m on managers etc) and against (his obsession with having 2 no 10s in midfield, our injury track record, his numerous fallouts with players, his horrific CL/League position etc). Ironically I became more of an ETH out after the FA cup final. The 'If they don't want me I go and win trophies elsewhere' irked me. I expected our manager to be a teeny weeny humbler considering that we finished 8th place with a negative goal difference.
Regarding Rashford, its not really on us isn't it? The guy has a long term contract and is on silly salary. If we try to push him out then he can easily dig his heels to the ground and say that he's staying. Which would then degenerate into another Sancho saga with him going on loan and us having to foot most of his salary. So yeah I can see a scenario were Rashford stays and we shouldn't be pushing the boat too much either. Having said that there's zero excuse for a player to skip training because he wanted to stay late at a pub. Also a United player should not jog on the pitch and look uninterested especially if he happens to be the highest paid player at the club.
I was in your camp and saying all the same things. However, I took a step back and reviewed it and although you may not agree, it is the reality.
Firstly, they have approached players, as seen from the bid for Branthwaite. 2 weeks is slow but it shows they carried a detailed evaluation of the season and manager, I get it you dont like the outcome.
In respects to Berrada, he joins in 3 weeks time officially, so he will have majority of the window. Ashworth, INEOS have actually briefed a few times, this summer will be without him and Berrara, Wilcox will take charge. They dont want to pay £15m for Ashworth and neither should they to get him in early.
It may not be a complicated summer if we start getting deals done early July. I agree if we start leaving it to end of July / August then its going to be another complicated season.
I don't think that the FA cup matter or that it saved him. Yes it put unnecessary pressure on them by the kneejerk side of our fan base. I also believe that there were more sinister things going on with a particular youtube channel who had even the gall to call Manchester United having the worst squad in EPL history. However I followed INEOS for enough time to know that they are trigger happy and won't settle for slim pickings which is exactly what the FA cup was at that point (8th place, 4th place in an easy CL group etc)
What I think happened is that we weren't able to seal a deal with a credible alternative. Now, I am aware that things are set to change once Ashworth and Berrarda start working which is why I am not going too hard on them. However the way we handled it stunk of amateurish. A reputable club like United should have had the review done and dusted long before the FA cup final and they should have had the alternative lined up and ready to sign.
No one is beyond criticism, it just seems you're taking it a bit far. Tuchel has been hired by PSG, Chelsea and Bayern Munich, that's hard to do with a weak CV. Chelsea hired him after he narrowly lost a CL final, and then he immediately took them to a CL final which they won. Are we to think that was a coincidence?
Yes it's true that they apparently approached players and that's fine. My point wasn't that they don't/can't approach players, but that their approaches can't be as convincing as they would be if the full structure was in place. That's why I don't like the current situation, it makes things much more difficult. I will have huge respect for the guys if they manage to pull off a great summer, I'm just highly skeptical.
Regarding the outcome: Yes, it wasn't my preferred outcome, but I was skeptical of this way of doing a post season review already when they started it without even knowing what the outcome would be, and the decision they made doesn't matter much for my view on it.
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Those first 6 fixtures are very hard if we go by last seasons standards. If there is no improvement the pressure will be so huge.
I agree with you but we have to remember, they are new owners and are trying to undo alot of wrongs.
Like you mention, things will change once the structure is in place, so why not wait till the structure is in place before we make big decisions on the manager?
They clearly went to various managers to sound them out and were not convinced with any of them, so do you think its worth sacking Ten Hag, paying him off and hire someone the hierarchy is not convinced with?
Or, we can keep Ten Hag, get structure sorted, identify how to move forward and let Berrada and Ashworth identify the type of manager, if Ten Hag doesn't do well, they will sack him.
Yeah but this is not something they can do anything about, they identified Ashworth and its silly to pay Newcastle 15m. They are paying him whilst he is partially working for United. We were not going to have him this window anyway, so we might as well wait tll the fee is 3m or free.
Its not ideal but that's the problem when hiring from another club. If it was any other club that went for Ashworth, they would have been accommodating but when its United clubs look at us like oh we can ask them crazy fees.
That's every manager thread for the last 10 years. It's pretty much tradition.
Absolutely, I think when a team is having a bad season low morale is often mistaken for downing tools or not trying.
True. It's absolutely fair to not give Newcastle what they want here. But it opens up the question if Ashworth really is that exceptional that it's worth to wait for him, which I doubt. But that discussion probably becomes a bit off topic here