Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

TwoSheds said:
For no particular reason...is he a Russian shill? If so, does he know it or is he still just banging the peace and love drum?

And if he is a Russian shill, was he when he was leader of the Labour party or has he been "radicalised" afterwards?

I really like the bloke but some of his foreign policy positions are indefensible to me, interested to know what people think.
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I always find it peculiar when these accusations come up, especially when it's the Tories who have taken sizeable donations from the Russians and how the Tory right like to cosy up with Trump, a bonafide Russian shill.

Which one of his foreign policy positions do you find bizarre?
 
Kaos said:
I always find it peculiar when these accusations come up, especially when it's the Tories who have taken sizeable donations from the Russians and how the Tory right like to cosy up with Trump, a bonafide Russian shill.

Which one of his foreign policy positions do you find bizarre?
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He refused to condemn Hamas, said we shouldn't give weapons to Ukraine and I seem to remember appeared on Russia Today? I didn't say the Tories weren't Russian shills, I'd quite happily drop them all out of a plane. It doesn't mean Corbyn is above reproach.
 
TwoSheds said:
He refused to condemn Hamas, said we shouldn't give weapons to Ukraine and I seem to remember appeared on Russia Today? I didn't say the Tories weren't Russian shills, I'd quite happily drop them all out of a plane. It doesn't mean Corbyn is above reproach.
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He did describe Hamas as a terror group. If you're referring to the Piers Morgan interview, he did do so but in a very nuanced way which probably did him no favours considering Morgan deliberately laid a trap out for him from the onset and he walked straight into it.

As for Ukraine, well Corbyn has famously always been a pacifist, so I'd argue he was consistent with his principles in not wanting to provide weapons or being involved in a war, indirectly or otherwise. He's also been vocal about not giving the Saudis weapons to carry out their brutal onslaught in Yemen. You could consider that an unfortunate stance but I don't think that necessarily makes him a Russian shill. And he goes on RT I suspect because they're the only ones willing to give him a platform, it's not like he's gotten particularly fair treatment from this country's media who have done a hatchet job on him the moment he reached a position of prominence.
 
Kaos said:
He did describe Hamas as a terror group. If you're referring to the Piers Morgan interview, he did do so but in a very nuanced way which probably did him no favours considering Morgan deliberately laid a trap out for him from the onset and he walked straight into it.

As for Ukraine, well Corbyn has famously always been a pacifist, so I'd argue he was consistent with his principles in not wanting to provide weapons or being involved in a war, indirectly or otherwise. He's also been vocal about not giving the Saudis weapons to carry out their brutal onslaught in Yemen. You could consider that an unfortunate stance but I don't think that necessarily makes him a Russian shill. And he goes on RT I suspect because they're the only ones willing to give him a platform, it's not like he's gotten particularly fair treatment from this country's media who have done a hatchet job on him the moment he reached a position of prominence.
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Don't disagree with any of what you're saying but to have reached the age he has and had the career in politics that he has without realising that there are occasional just wars is odd to me. Letting aggression pass unchecked can be wise up to a point, but Ukraine is long past that point I think. Him being hoodwinked by the Russians and to some degree parroting their viewpoint is just so daft to me, makes me wonder whether there really is anything more to the story or whether he is that naive.
 
Kaos said:
He did describe Hamas as a terror group. If you're referring to the Piers Morgan interview, he did do so but in a very nuanced way which probably did him no favours considering Morgan deliberately laid a trap out for him from the onset and he walked straight into it.

As for Ukraine, well Corbyn has famously always been a pacifist, so I'd argue he was consistent with his principles in not wanting to provide weapons or being involved in a war, indirectly or otherwise. He's also been vocal about not giving the Saudis weapons to carry out their brutal onslaught in Yemen. You could consider that an unfortunate stance but I don't think that necessarily makes him a Russian shill. And he goes on RT I suspect because they're the only ones willing to give him a platform, it's not like he's gotten particularly fair treatment from this country's media who have done a hatchet job on him the moment he reached a position of prominence.
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He might be a pacifist but if we werent to give Ukraine a means to protect themselves it would be Gaza all over again just closer to home, so you can argue it from his own ideology he would be ok with seeing Russia rampage through Ukraine unchecked.
 
Gavinb33 said:
He might be a pacifist but if we werent to give Ukraine a means to protect themselves it would be Gaza all over again just closer to home, so you can argue it from his own ideology he would be ok with seeing Russia rampage through Ukraine unchecked.
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Well for starters the UK isn't providing arms or unilateral support for Russia like they are with Israel, so there's hardly a need for dissent there. Corbyn hasn't endorsed the Russian offensive either.
 
Kaos said:
Well for starters the UK isn't providing arms or unilateral support for Russia like they are with Israel, so there's hardly a need for dissent there. Corbyn hasn't endorsed the Russian offensive either.
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So how would he have "helped" Ukraine?
 
VorZakone said:
So how would he have "helped" Ukraine?
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If you're suggesting the only means to help Ukraine is to provide weapons to prolong a war then again it violates his own pacifist principles. You might disagree with it but it doesn't make him a hypocrite nor necessarily a shill either. By the same token he's not suggested arming Hamas either.
 
Kaos said:
If you're suggesting the only means to help Ukraine is to provide weapons to prolong a war then again it violates his own pacifist principles. You might disagree with it but it doesn't make him a hypocrite nor necessarily a shill either. By the same token he's not suggested arming Hamas either.
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I'm not suggesting anything. Since it violates his pacifist principles, how would he have helped Ukraine at the start of the invasion?
 
VorZakone said:
I'm not suggesting anything. Since it violates his pacifist principles, how would he have helped Ukraine at the start of the invasion?
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From what I understand, his whole stance was the conflict could have been prevented or de-escalated with diplomacy, and post-invasion he advocated sending more humanitarian aid and for the UK to take in more Ukrainian refugees.
 
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Kaos said:
From what I understand, his whole stance was the conflict could have been prevented or de-escalated with diplomacy, and post-invasion he advocated sending more humanitarian aid and for the UK to take in more Ukrainian refugees.
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Sounds noble but if all countries, including the US, had adopted that policy with no weapon aid, then Ukraine would have been toast eventually.
 
VorZakone said:
Sounds noble but if all countries, including the US, had adopted that policy with no weapon aid, then Ukraine would have been toast eventually.
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I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, rather it hardly makes Corbyn a hypocrite or a shill. The same people who are accusing him of such are often begging to provide more arms to the Ukraine while cheerleading Israel's own brutal near-genocidal campaign in Gaza, the humanitarian cost of which is looking to completely dwarf that of Ukraine.
 
I like Corbyn. Has always advocated for Palestinian freedom from a brutal Israeli occupation and apartheid regime.

Has always advocated for peace.

and he was disgracefully labelled an anti semite and hounded out of the Labour Party by pro Israeli lobby groups in a smear campaign that was utter BS. The same pro Zionist groups are now in control of both major parties and we see the sh*tshow that’s apparent from their respective stances on the genocide in Gaza.
 
Pav1878 said:
I like Corbyn. Has always advocated for Palestinian freedom from a brutal Israeli occupation and apartheid regime.

Has always advocated for peace.

and he was disgracefully labelled an anti semite and hounded out of the Labour Party by pro Israeli lobby groups in a smear campaign that was utter BS. The same pro Zionist groups are now in control of both major parties and we see the sh*tshow that’s apparent from their respective stances on the genocide in Gaza.
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He may not he an anti semite but he put himself in enough places and around enough anti semites to be questioned if he was sometimes you are judged by the company you keep
 
Pav1878 said:
I like Corbyn. Has always advocated for Palestinian freedom from a brutal Israeli occupation and apartheid regime.

Has always advocated for peace.

and he was disgracefully labelled an anti semite and hounded out of the Labour Party by pro Israeli lobby groups in a smear campaign that was utter BS. The same pro Zionist groups are now in control of both major parties and we see the sh*tshow that’s apparent from their respective stances on the genocide in Gaza.
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He would have utterly failed Ukraine if he'd been PM.
 
711 said:
'Will you give a blanket undertaking?', yeah, that's got the ring of truth to it. Although to be fair to the old duffer it might be his recall seeing as how he's only just remembered it happening and hasn't said who it was asked the question. If he did I might believe him.
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Harsh on @duffer.
 
Gavinb33 said:
He may not he an anti semite but he put himself in enough places and around enough anti semites to be questioned if he was sometimes you are judged by the company you keep
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I guess the current government is fecked then as they keep the company of ultra Zionists
 
Grinner said:
He would have utterly failed Ukraine if he'd been PM.
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I think there needs to be a closer look as to why Russia invaded Ukraine.
It’s not as simple as Putin is an evil dictator and has lost the plot.

The West has rallied around Ukraine but utterly failed Palestinians.
Whether Corbyn would have failed Ukraine or not I have no idea. But he would have done better by Palestine that’s for sure.
 
Pav1878 said:
I think there needs to be a closer look as to why Russia invaded Ukraine.
It’s not as simple as Putin is an evil dictator and has lost the plot.

The West has rallied around Ukraine but utterly failed Palestinians.
Whether Corbyn would have failed Ukraine or not I have no idea. But he would have done better by Palestine that’s for sure.
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Sounds a bit like the old “it’s the West that forced him to invade Ukraine” argument
 
Pav1878 said:
I think there needs to be a closer look as to why Russia invaded Ukraine.
It’s not as simple as Putin is an evil dictator and has lost the plot.

The West has rallied around Ukraine but utterly failed Palestinians.
Whether Corbyn would have failed Ukraine or not I have no idea. But he would have done better by Palestine that’s for sure.
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Have the arab world utterly failed Palestine too?
 
711 said:
'Will you give a blanket undertaking?', yeah, that's got the ring of truth to it. Although to be fair to the old duffer it might be his recall seeing as how he's only just remembered it happening and hasn't said who it was asked the question. If he did I might believe him.
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Jeremy would never give a 'blanket undertaking' to anybody, including those who supported him, because he never put himself in a position where anyone would ask.
 
Pav1878 said:
I think there needs to be a closer look as to why Russia invaded Ukraine.
It’s not as simple as Putin is an evil dictator and has lost the plot.

The West has rallied around Ukraine but utterly failed Palestinians.
Whether Corbyn would have failed Ukraine or not I have no idea. But he would have done better by Palestine that’s for sure.
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The West’s relationship with Israel is very different from the West’s relationship with Russia.
 
Pav1878 said:
I think there needs to be a closer look as to why Russia invaded Ukraine.
It’s not as simple as Putin is an evil dictator and has lost the plot.

The West has rallied around Ukraine but utterly failed Palestinians.
Whether Corbyn would have failed Ukraine or not I have no idea. But he would have done better by Palestine that’s for sure.
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It actually is as simple as Putin being an evil dictator.
 
This isn't hard folks. Two things can be true at the same time: Ukrainians deserve support & Palestinians deserve support.

As for Corbyn himself, he says some nice things but also some utter shit.
 
Jam said:
The West’s relationship with Israel is very different from the West’s relationship with Russia.
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And that is what needs to change. If Russia is a pariah state then Israel should be too
 
Zen86 said:
Sounds a bit like the old “it’s the West that forced him to invade Ukraine” argument
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Actually, it’s the ‘Russia invaded Ukraine due to its impending membership of NATO after being promised NATO would never be on their borders’ argument.
 
Pav1878 said:
Actually, it’s the ‘Russia invaded Ukraine due to its impending membership of NATO after being promised NATO would never be on their borders’ argument.
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There is literally no formal promise on paper. Whatever some diplomat said in whatever backroom meeting, it's not binding. Note that Gorbachev himself said there was no promise. You can believe that or not.

Putin has violated the Budapest Memorandum by the way but don't let that distract you.
 
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