Scores die in Israeli air strikes

sammsky1 said:
Indeed, he must be a 'white-hater' as some real geniune imbecile described him as in earlier pages on this thread because he dared expose the goings on of people who happen to share the same skin colour as him :nono: :nono:
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I'm so sorry that you take offense at my calling him a self-hating white person. It was not implied that he hates all white people, I thought that would be clear. More that he hates himself, because of his distaste in general for the actions of whitey now and in the past. His description of a mob of Afghans beating him for being white, then afterward saying "If I were them, I would have beaten me too", was to me persuasive in describing Mr. Fisk's attitude toward himself, people of European descent, and the world in general.

I'm guessing he shares your own personal conviction, Sammsky, that any group of people that has been wronged - preferably by people of European decent - is justified in whatever actions they subsequently take. Post all the glowing reviews of this work that you want, he is obviously a very talented reporter. But reporting from the mindset I just described, it can be somewhat predictable how he analyzes events, and even what events he chooses to cover.
 
RedKaos said:
Nope, the US was the only member of the UN council to reject a ceasefire...I wonder why.
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Oh well, that proves it. :rolleyes:

Do we need to visit the uselessness of the UN again in this thread? Besides, does the UN represent every citizen of the world? If that's the case all Americans disapprove of a cease fire. While LABOB claims to be a citizen of this country (too bad that can't be revoked) I doubt he agrees. Not to mention apparently cease fires don't really seem to do much do they? As I recall there was a cease fire between these two side before.
 
Cali Red said:
Oh well, that proves it. :rolleyes:

Do we need to visit the uselessness of the UN again in this thread? Besides, does the UN represent every citizen of the world? If that's the case all Americans disapprove of a cease fire. While LABOB claims to be a citizen of this country (too bad that can't be revoked) I doubt he agrees. Not to mention apparently cease fires don't really seem to do much do they? As I recall there was a cease fire between these two side before.
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As I've stated many times in this thread, and also reflecting what most world leaders think.....the ceasefire is NOT the permanent solution to the issue, its only a temporary measure to stop the killing of hundreds of innocent Palestinian citizens, especially women and children.

And yes there was a ceasefire before until Israel broke it on November 4th (last time I checked crossing the border and killing 6 Palestinians does count as breaking a ceasefire agreement....I still havent had any proper reply explaining those actions.

Btw from what I gather LABOB seems to be a US citizen thats not too stupid to release the tryanny of the Bush administration and the incompetence behind it that has lead to the US's destroyed world image in the last decade or so. Its maybe people like you who vote for the like of Bush and celebrate the killings of hundreds of innocents, because they chose to democratically elect an organisation the US and Israel just didnt happen to like, who need to wake up and see whats really going on.
 
I highly doubt it. It looks to me as something we used in the artillery unit I was in called DPICM. It was an artillery round that detonated above ground using a proximity fuse and dropped smaller explosive charges over a wide area. WP is really only effective against armored units and last I checked Hamas doesn't have much of an armored division.
 
A few days ago Spinoza cast doubt on my analysis that British newspapers were broadly supportive of Israel.
Last night between 11.30am and midnight, on Sky News, this mornings newspapers were pre viewed by Tim Walker of the Daily Telegraph who said exactly what I said. He even mentioned he could see a change over the past few days thru Israeli miscalculation.

If Soinoza hurries and presses the red button on his sky remote he can catch Tim Walker saying it.

Once again I am burdened with being "right". :lol:
 
CLK_FPC said:
I only just found out that Israel were using phosphorus bombs thus breaking international law

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White phosphorous is "illegal" as an anti personal device in built up civilian areas. It is also used by many military forces as a method of deploying smoke to cover troop movements.

The IDF uses white phosphorous as a smoke agent. The only confirmed usage of WP has been outside of built up civilian areas as a smoke agent. Now I am sure it is possible some Palestinian civilians were killed by it as it is impossible to account for every civilian in Gaza but there is no evidence WP was used in any other role than to produce smoke thus far.

It is also worth noting the US used WP judiciously in the Iraqi invasion for exactly the same purpose to produce smoke. There are some rather gruesome pictures of Iraqi civilians allegedly burned by the stuff.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
So, how's the baby killing going? Are you Israel supporters happy with it?
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The lack of civilian casualties is pretty remarkable. In this sort of situation the civilian casualty expectation should be many times higher. Instead it is approximately 1:1 with combatants.
 
CLK_FPC said:
I only just found out that Israel were using phosphorus bombs thus breaking international law
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These were used from day 1, and were seen by international media as you can hardly hide those images. I wonder why it took you that long to find out- anything to do with the Palestinian breaking out the news yesterday, reporting another "war crime"?

Come on, get over the need to paint one side in the conflict as the poor innocent and the other as a butcher and child killer. Leave that to AlwaysRedwood.
 
holyland red said:
Come on, get over the need to paint one side in the conflict as the poor innocent and the other as a butcher and child killer. Leave that to AlwaysRedwood.
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Oh, come on now. You're both child killer's and butchers.

Hamas and Israel. Two sides of the same coin.
 
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TELETEXT UPDATE - LATEST SCORE JUST IN

Palestinians over 900 - Israel 12


Thats human beings killed since this latest bout of warfare started. Of the 900 odd Palestinians killed, 40% were women or children under the age of 12.
 
sammsky1 said:
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TELETEXT UPDATE - LATEST SCORE JUST IN

Palestinians over 900 - Israel 12


Thats human beings killed since this latest bout of warfare started. Of the 900 odd Palestinians killed, 40% were women or children under the age of 12.
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How anyone can defend Israel over this mystifies me. Like Hamas, they're a renegade, murderous and illegal regime and were the US not in their pockets, they something would have been done about them a long time ago.
 
sammsky1 said:
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TELETEXT UPDATE - LATEST SCORE JUST IN

Palestinians over 900 - Israel 12


Thats human beings killed since this latest bout of warfare started. Of the 900 odd Palestinians killed, 40% were women or children under the age of 12.
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How can these numbers be verified? I'm not questioning that hundreds have died (Israeli sources admit it too) but how can you know it's over 900 and that 40% were women and children when all those figures come from the Palestinian sources?
 
Mihajlovic said:
How can these numbers be verified? I'm not questioning that hundreds have died (Israeli sources admit it too) but how can you know it's over 900 and that 40% were women and children when all those figures come from the Palestinian sources?
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Last night the latest article on MSN stated the official death toll was about 870 with half of them being civilians.

"Gaza medical officials say at least 870 Palestinians, about half of them civilians, have been killed in the conflict that began Dec. 27 with Israeli airstrikes on Hamas buildings, as well as suspected rocket launch sites and smuggling tunnels on the Egyptian border. Thirteen Israelis, including 10 soldiers, have died."
 
Frosty said:
http://fora.tv/2008/09/16/Violence__the_Left_in_Dark_Times_A_Debate

Worth a watch to see these two heavyweights slug it out.
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Don't know what to think of Levy. His views on the Bosnia conflict were so embarrassingly simplistic, detached from any historical awareness, it was painful to read it (I remember a leftist paper in Germany published some of his stuff). I haven't read his Who killed Daniel Pearl book but I heard that was disastrous as well. Is that true? Any other books from him you can recommend?
 
Mihajlovic said:
Don't know what to think of Levy. His views on the Bosnia conflict were so embarrassingly simplistic, detached from any historical awareness, it was painful to read it (I remember a leftist paper in Germany published some of his stuff). I haven't read his Who killed Daniel Pearl book but I heard that was disastrous as well. Is that true? Any other books from him you can recommend?
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Well his new book has been recommended to me, although I haven't read it: "Left in Dark Times: A Stand Against New Barbarism"

Then again, Zizek is an amazing philosopher. Have you read his book "Violence"? It is an interesting read, very thought provoking even if you disagree with it.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Oh, come on now. You're both child killer's and butchers.

Hamas and Israel. Two sides of the same coin.
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Your country is responsible for more Muslim victims over the last 8 years than Israel is during its 60-year existence.

And you weren't even attacked. Murderers.

Edit: attacked once if you're a Yank.
 
gulli_G said:
I know it's your job to defend Blindly, what is it? around 5000 students online, in the UK alone? around that number, anyway before your hearts become so rock hard, have a bit of compassion, in the name of humanity stop supporting israeli actions.

How can anyone defend this (all palestinians are responsible):

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
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That article is from May 2007. It is a little bit sneaky to implicitly imply that a Rabbi said that all Palestinians are responsible for the current conflict.

That said, do his comments even need condemning?
 
Frosty said:
Well his new book has been recommended to me, although I haven't read it: "Left in Dark Times: A Stand Against New Barbarism"

Then again, Zizek is an amazing philosopher. Have you read his book "Violence"? It is an interesting read, very thought provoking even if you disagree with it.
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One of my profs who's all into cultural theory recommended Zizek, I've never read him though. Violence looks interesting, cheers!
 
ralphie88 said:
How anyone can defend Israel over this mystifies me. Like Hamas, they're a renegade, murderous and illegal regime and were the US not in their pockets, they something would have been done about them a long time ago.
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How are "they" illegal? How are "they" more "murderous" than the UK? Any suggestions as for what should be done with "them"?
 
Frosty said:
Well his new book has been recommended to me, although I haven't read it: "Left in Dark Times: A Stand Against New Barbarism"

Then again, Zizek is an amazing philosopher. Have you read his book "Violence"? It is an interesting read, very thought provoking even if you disagree with it.
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Haha, Levy is quite a character... just read an article in World Politics Review. Crazy.

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=2645
 
Cali Red said:
Do we need to visit the uselessness of the UN again in this thread?
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Nope, which is why I will not mention the UN's terrific work on preventing Iran from getting nuclear weapons. Yeah, they've really showed them, haven't they? I'm sure they'll arrange a meeting at the UN soon where they will discuss it some more and agree to meet again and discuss it again. Strong stuff, that.
 
sammsky1 said:
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TELETEXT UPDATE - LATEST SCORE JUST IN

Palestinians over 900 - Israel 12


Thats human beings killed since this latest bout of warfare started. Of the 900 odd Palestinians killed, 40% were women or children under the age of 12.
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It might have something with this:
 
This thread is turning silly now.

I think the mutual assumption should be that both Hamas and Israel government are murderous thugs that have no consideration for innocent life whatsoever. The US should be ashamed for blindly supporting this Israeli onslaught too.
 
gulli_G said:
hard to tell what's happening in that short video. Looks like he's moving scared children across the road to safety, children who are too scred to move, look at them Trembling.
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No, It's not very hard to tell. It looks like the boys there feel relatively safe (considering the circumstances) knowing they're not the targets, although they don't feel safe anymore when "asked" to escort the Hamas terrorist across the street.

There is no question about the IDF using this illegal method in the past. It's been made public, and the Israeli supreme court deemed it illegal. Mind you, the IDF was using Palestinians too as human shields. Using Israeli kids wouldn't have worked as they are considered legitimate targets by the Palestinians. Obviously both ways are illegal, but here's another small difference between the two sides.
 
Fearless said:
For those who love hamas...learn something from a palestinian

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No one here loves Hamas, they're a horrible organisation thats set out to achieve their goals in the worst ways possible. People here are concerned over the the continuous deaths over hundreds of innocents, most of which can be avoided.
 
Chris H said:
Thanks for addressing my central point, your seeming assertion that a group that has suffered injustice can be forgiven for any response to that injustice - whether against their oppressor (here you cite Palestinian attacks on Israel) or another group entirely (here you cite Pakistan's actions in Bangladesh). But if this is the case, aren't the true villains in the Middle East nations like Germany, Poland, and Ukraine? After all, it was their persecution of Jews that led them to respond by establishing the state of Israel. The Israelis are blameless - they were wronged, and so they responded the only way they could. Shame on Germany, Poland and Ukraine for forcing the Jews into such action. It's ridiculous of course, but if you're willing to cite Bangladesh as something that must be blamed on Britain, it seems entirely reasonable.

Again, if I interpret you correctly, you seem to be willing to forgive any level of atrocity if it is in response to injustice. By this token, one could say that the extermination of 7 million Israelis, though not right, could be excusable - it's only a couple million more than likely died in Bangladesh. But if enough people in Gaza and their friends in the region believe this to be the case, and I believe this is not incompatible for example with what is outlined in Hamas' charter, would not Israel be right to assume that they really are locked in an all-out war for survival, since as you have stated elsewhere, a two-state solution is not possible? And if this is the case, isn't it then disingenuous to be outraged at the deaths of a few hundred civilians?

I say this not because one shouldn't be upset about the deaths, but because by your arguments, the Israeli offensive seems a) justifiable given the actions of Germany and Poland, which absolve Israel of any responsibility for their actions, and b) justifiable if enough people in the Middle East believe, as you do that any response to injustice is acceptable, including genocide.
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Thanks for this and really, its a pleasure to exchange views with you. Can I say that I think you have have a fantastic analytical mind and an ability to connect dots that makes another look like one has contradicted himself! - Your not a lawyer are you?! ;)

This is such a tough conversation to deal with and probably, like all of us who can be bothered to post on this board about it, it troubles me deeply. Your suggestions and general view is of course the right one, a sensible one which seeks compromise and takes into consideration where we are. Like MikeUpNorth and others, you speak from a point of objectivity and far all those reasons, on the basis of logic and humanity, I cant argue with you.

I guess I cant get to that point because what is a happening is simply unfair. It not right. The dice are so ridiculously loaded in Israel's favour when they are in my opinion, the transgressor. It just continues to set the right precedent that anyone can commit heinous crimes and then if they remain strong, bully and intimidate then sooner rather than later they can move the debate onto a false question. Anyway we are going around and around. But again I thank you for opening me up to your line of thinking which I now fully understand.

As an aside but as a related point, and this is intended to those who I've debated with who say I'm wrong to assocaite the actions of a government (a few) to an entire population, I was interested to read the following on a link posted above:


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

According to Jewish war ethics, wrote Eliyahu, an entire city holds collective responsibility for the immoral behavior of individuals. In Gaza, the entire populace is responsible because they do nothing to stop the firing of Kassam rockets.
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holyland red said:
It might have something with this:
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I promised myself that I would not engage in conversation with you again and I'm not, this is strictly a one way communique:

You really are a horrible small minded little man. I thought your post before were pretty astounding but I was wrong ... seriously, how low can one stoop? (I'm sure you can go way lower too). I'm not sure if that is because you are just a product of hatred propaganda which your country must be filled with or if it just comes naturally.

Regardless, its because of people EXACTLY like you that many many people despise Israel. So do congratulate yourself on that great contribution you make to your country. All you do is make me and many others feel even more certain that we are right in our opinions about your people.

I read that you have children. I dread to think how they are being raised. Probably like the Vatican recently said which was as the modern day equivalent of German Nazi's. There is a nice symmetry about that I guess.
 
RedKaos said:
No one here loves Hamas, they're a horrible organisation thats set out to achieve their goals in the worst ways possible. People here are concerned over the the continuous deaths over hundreds of innocents, most of which can be avoided.
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Good post. I mean it.

Unlike you, notice how the UN Human Rights Commision have failed to condemn Hamas.
 
sammsky1 said:
You really are a horrible small minded little man. I thought your post before were pretty astounding but was totally wrong ... seriously, how low can one stoop? I'm not sure if that is because you are just a product of hatred propaganda which your country must be filled with or if it just comes naturally.

Regardless, its because of people EXACTLY like you that people HATE Israel. So do congratulate yourself on that great contribution you make to your country. All you do is make me and many others feel even more certain that we are4 right about your people.

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Your people Holyland........naughty jew boys, all of them.
 
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