Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[sammsky1]

The Footprints of Genocidal Tendencies​

The ZIONIST IDEOLOGY.

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS’S QUOTES

Prime minister’s quotes:

1- David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 - 1963

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

2- Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"Anyone who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

3- Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.


"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."

-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

4-Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.


"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."

-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

Taken from:

http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

"The dream of Greater Israel -a homeland for the Jewish people from the Nile to Euphrates- which inspired the founding fathers of Zionism, was already dead."
Olmert 2008

___________________________________


I was going to write an essay on the evolving aggressive situation that the Israeli government have stood behind for more than 100 years, but I found this list of quotes that says it all...


Now I ask... the chicken or the egg question. Who denied who's existance first? It is looking as if the Jewish people evicted the Palestinian people, then created a constitutional belief that they never existed.


I offer the wisdom of one of America's most well respected writers on our current state of consciousness and spiritual dysfunction:

Eckheart Tolle - Book Title, A New Earth pages 72 -73

The Ego is Not Personal​

On a collective level, the mind-set "We are right and they are wrong" is particularly deeply entrenched in those parts of the world where conflict between two nations, races, tribes, religions, or ideologies is long-standing, extreme, and endemic. Both sides of the conflict are equally indentified with their own perspective, their own "story," that is to say identified with thought. Both are equally incapable of seeing that another perspective, another story, may exist and also be valid. Israeli writer Y. Halevi speaks of the posibility of "accomodating a competitive narrative," but in many parts of the world, people are not yet able or willing to do that. Both sides regard themselves as the victim and the "other" as evil, and because the have conceptualized and thereby dehumanized the other as the enemy, they can kill and inflict all kinds of violence on the other, even on children, without feeling their humanity and suffering. They become trapped in an insane spiral of perpetration and retribution, action, and reaction.

Game, set and match I think.

To all those in this debate who try and negate history in this conflict or who have a misunderstood perception on how we have gotten here, this is a fantastically simple and yet provocative way to understand.

I must say, I am very impressed at how Israel has managed to shift the debate from the real question to thier question ... Its something which Shakespeare captured very well within the construct of his infamous 'Shylock'. The 'diversion strategy' is a recurring theme of these people, .... just some are better than others .... and some of the pro Zionist posters on this site definitely fall into the 'not so good' as has been evidenced and proven in some previous posts.

 

[IhabX7]

Game, set and match I think.

To all those in this debate who try and negate history in this conflict or who have a misunderstood perception on how we have gotten here, this is a fantastically simple and yet provocative way to understand.

I must say, I am very impressed at how Israel has managed to shift the debate from the real question to thier question ... Its something which Shakespeare captured very well within the construct of his infamous 'Shylock'. The 'diversion strategy' is a recurring theme of these people, .... just some are better than others .... and some of the pro Zionist posters on this site definitely fall into the 'not so good' as has been evidenced and proven in some previous posts.

True that.

 

[Nucks]

Game, set and match I think.

To all those in this debate who try and negate history in this conflict or who have a misunderstood perception on how we have gotten here, this is a fantastically simple and yet provocative way to understand.

I must say, I am very impressed at how Israel has managed to shift the debate from the real question to thier question ... Its something which Shakespeare captured very well within the construct of his infamous 'Shylock'. The 'diversion strategy' is a recurring theme of these people, .... just some are better than others .... and some of the pro Zionist posters on this site definitely fall into the 'not so good' as has been evidenced and proven in some previous posts.

Read the Hamas charter. Game, set and match. No fancy conspiracy theories about aliens running the US government and Jews controlling the aliens so you will probably pass.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Game, set and match I think.

To all those in this debate who try and negate history in this conflict or who have a misunderstood perception on how we have gotten here, this is a fantastically simple and yet provocative way to understand.

I must say, I am very impressed at how Israel has managed to shift the debate from the real question to thier question ... Its something which Shakespeare captured very well within the construct of his infamous 'Shylock'. The 'diversion strategy' is a recurring theme of these people, .... just some are better than others .... and some of the pro Zionist posters on this site definitely fall into the 'not so good' as has been evidenced and proven in some previous posts.

What, in your mind, is the real question?

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Read the Hamas charter. Game, set and match. No fancy conspiracy theories about aliens running the US government and Jews controlling the aliens so you will probably pass.

Qualifies as nothing more than 'Feeble Distraction'.

 

[Plechazunga]

Plech, you have almost always avoided the chance to engage in conversation with me. I'm sure you'll have a Neo-Connish snipey answer for not discussing this topic, like a man, but that's ok.


I want to offer an open discussion, as many people seem to respect your writing ability. I ask you, are you able to discuss without becoming insulting? I am.

My perception is the opposite, Bob - that when I answer your posts, and point out the many things you tend to get wrong, you ignore my replies.

As for becoming insulting, in this thread I used the very mildly teasing name 'Einstein' for you, in a response to a more than usually facile point. You responded by calling me a "feckin' manipulating cock". After that post I came to the conclusion there was no point discussing things further - not so much because of the childish abuse but because of the sort of poster you are.

My views on international politics are in fact very far from 'neo-con'. I'm a Labour voter, apart from last time when I voted Lib Dem because I felt the government had drifted too far to the right. I don't think there's anyone with a view on the Arab-Israeli conflict that is not biased in some way - it's so complex and entrenched a conflict that there is no simple truth. Nevertheless, if you look at this thread and others you'll see that I attempt to be balanced as much as anyone does. I am well capable of having a conversation with people who disagree with me on it. Me and Sultan will never agree on this, but I've enjoyed and learnt from talking to him as always, because he listens and because although religious he has an independent mind. Same goes for Mozza (before he got too bored and pissed off to post anything except weary one-line aphorisms). Even someone like Sammsky, whose views I find offensive (and I dare say he feels likewise), is interesting to talk to, because he has a brain and knows about the subject.

With you it's different. You deal either in raw emotion, or in the heavily sarcastic, deeply cynical, reality-neutral, paranoid fare that has sadly become the lingua franca on the left these days. There's no analysis, there's no independent thought, there's no chance of anyone else's arguments changing your mind.

To take an example, let's look at your misreading above. What I giggled at was not so much the error, but the conclusions it immediately suggested in your mind. One was,

Canada might not have the Jewish lobby that most countries have.

The absurdity of this conclusion is made apparent by the fact that you misread the story. Are we now to conclude that, actually, it's Canada that's free from the all-powerful Jewish lobby, and all the others that are suffering from them? What would have happened if it was 50-50? Would that have implied that exactly half the countries were under the grip of the lobbies, while the others had all nobly wriggled free?

The root of the problem is that you're so sure you're right. Because it is inconceivable to you that the Israeli position could in any way be justifiable, you're forced to conclude that any example of a state coming down on their side must be the result either of Jewish machinations behind the scenes, or lack of moral courage.

Here's another example from this thread of you jumping to really stupid conclusions:

What I found to be a shocking statistic amongst the Palestinians: the average age of the people that live in the concentration camp called the Gaza Strip is 17 years old.

Now, this would mean one of a few contributing factors. Either the Israelis are starving the people to death, or the healthcare is nothing more than third world medical, or the Israeli soldiers have murdered most of the adults.

Ladies and Gentlemen: it's Bob Logic. We have a fact - a low average age in Gaza - and three immediate, and idiotic, conclusions. Notice too how sure of yourself you are: the worldly, quasi-scientific authoritativeness of "Now, this would mean one of a few contributing factors." One of the 'contributing factors' is that the Israelis may have murdered most of the adult population of Gaza - about three quarters of a million people. The fact that you think this genocide might have happened, when the death of less than a thousand people causes a major international outcry, shows just how exceptionally ignorant you are about the conflict. Myself, Holyland and Chris all explained why these conclusions were absurd. You simply ignored the explanations and carried on with the rhetoric, as if you'd never said it. That's typical of your approach to discussion.

Now you've taken to copying and pasting out of context quotes from Israeli leaders of the past. Fearless will respond with similar quotes from Arabs. And so it goes on. I'm not wasting any more posts talking to you - it's pointless, because you're too uninformed, and that's putting it as nicely as I can.

 

[Nucks]

Total ownage

I think the content of the post speaks for itself.

Plech just stamped his authority all over this thread. Im drinking the koolaid and the koolaid is salty.

 

[Frosty]

 

[Mozza]

Read the Hamas charter. Game, set and match. No fancy conspiracy theories about aliens running the US government and Jews controlling the aliens so you will probably pass.

Olmert certainly belives he controls American policy Link

The United States, Israel's main ally, had initially been expected to voted in line with the other 14 but Rice later became the sole abstention.

"In the night between Thursday and Friday, when the secretary of state wanted to lead the vote on a ceasefire at the Security Council, we did not want her to vote in favour," Olmert said.

"I said 'get me President Bush on the phone'. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care. 'I need to talk to him now'. He got off the podium and spoke to me.

"I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour."

 

[ooeat0meoo]

It is fair to say that I mis-stepped...

Although, I do admit the times that I have or been shown to be wrong. Your unrestrained urge to referrence the Canadian post goes exactly to the point of you being a 'Manipulating Cock'. I did concede that I was wrong. And maybe, I shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

Having said that, I am trying harder to get to the facts of the situation. Your position that it is impossible to have no bias in this discussion is wrong, in my opinion.


Whilst you have the educational eloquence of dressing up such a position, it doesn't wash away the historical facts.

'Fearless' can post all the Islam-Extremist quotes he wants, and I will wholeheartedly agree with him. That doesn't make the Israeli history in this conflict any more valid, on the grounds of morale standing.



Maybe you are correct... maybe we shouldn't discuss this together. You shared that you are not willing to understand that the Israeli position of obliteration of the Gazans could be wrong. So, I believe we've met the end of our discussion.


____________________________________________

Breaking News: CNN has comfirmed that the IDF have been using the illegal agent 'white phosphorus' on the Palestinian people. While it is not an internation crime to use this chemical, it is illegal to use it on enemy combatants or densly populated areas.

 

[Fitzjames]

May I refer Spinoza to yesterdays Media Guardian (an invaluable source for those like me who study the Media).
Interesting breakdown on the British Press treatment of Israel-Palestine thru the years.
Copies are possibly available in a local library.

 

[Fitzjames]

I am indebted to yesterdays (Mondays) Guardian for reminding me of the work of Michael Walzer, an American academic and his essay on just and unjust war.
And his belief that the Israeli-Palestinian War is actually FOUR WARS. They overlap. They confuse us.Each of these Wars requires a different MORAL response.
Thus the Palestinians are fighting to destroy Israel (to "wipe it off the map")........thats obviously "bad"
Thus the Palestinians are trying to create their own viable state and end Israeli occupation of the West Bank ..........."good"
Thus the Israelis are fighting for safety for their State within pre 1967 boundaries ........."good"
Thus Israelis are fighting to create a "Greater Israel" (including south Lebanon and the West Bank) as ordained by God......"bad".

Obviously the participants play up their own "good" intentions and the other sides "evil" intentions.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

I am indebted to yesterdays (Mondays) Guardian for reminding me of the work of Michael Walzer, an American academic and his essay on just and unjust war.
And his belief that the Israeli-Palestinian War is actually FOUR WARS. They overlap. They confuse us.Each of these Wars requires a different MORAL response.
Thus the Palestinians are fighting to destroy Israel (to "wipe it off the map")........thats obviously "bad"
Thus the Palestinians are trying to create their own viable state and end Israeli occupation of the West Bank ..........."good"
Thus the Israelis are fighting for safety for their State within pre 1967 boundaries ........."good"
Thus Israelis are fighting to create a "Greater Israel" (including south Lebanon and the West Bank) as ordained by God......"bad".

Obviously the participants play up their own "good" intentions and the other sides "evil" intentions.

I agree with your post. The only thing that complicates this outline is the morale boundaries of the phrase 'Self-Preservation'.

 

[CptMarvel]

Anyone know anything about Jews for Justice in the Middle East?
After reading their account on the situation I'd like to know how reliable their opinions are.

 

[Rooney gr8]

Somewhat unsurprisingly, you link to an article by Michel Chossudovsky, which concludes with this advert for one of his books:

"In this new and expanded edition of Michel Chossudovsky's 2002 best seller, the author blows away the smokescreen put up by the mainstream media, that 9/11 was an attack on America by "Islamic terrorists". Through meticulous research, the author uncovers a military-intelligence ploy behind the September 11 attacks, and the cover-up and complicity of key members of the Bush Administration."

And then you claim I don't understand the issues? I find this odd to say the least.

I don't really follow your point about believing in god? I haven't tried to make any issue of religious belief in this thread; nobody has as far as I can remember.

why are you being such a cnut?
quoting 911 with my post..for distraction?
you could have verified the facts yourself, poor for someone who considers themselve an intelect!!!
I will post some more links for you to simply click on to verify that Gaza and the Palestinians do have oil reserves, ffs.

you DONT understand the issues if you refuse to believe that hamas rockets are the cause of this latest conflict.
I find your attitude to this 'odd to say the least'.

As far as my satirical remark regarding 'ask them to stop beliving in god', then you really cannot grasp the situation of which you feel compelled to post solutions..?!
maybe you should reread your post about trading then read some fact about beliefs which are endenic to that region.

there are women and children and BABIES dying on a daily basis.
If you want to really help, speak out against the suffering of all the non-military personel.

here, look at the devastation which Israel has to suffer, for a balanced view...

[/IMG]

some more lincs to verify that there IS a gas reserve on the coast of Gaza, belonging to Gaza, so they wouldnt need to rely on tourism...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jul/26/gazaagasforblair

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-supply-israel-with-gas-from-gaza-536394.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643848/Gaza-doesn't-need-aid-it-has-a-andpound2bn-gas-field.html

http://pacificfreepress.com/news/1/3574-israeli-invasion-and-gazas-offshore-gas-fields-.html

is that enough? would you like more?

 

[Rooney gr8]

Anyone know anything about Jews for Justice in the Middle East?
After reading their account on the situation I'd like to know how reliable their opinions are.

they are a very brave people, they speak out and hold demonstrations against the suffering of the Palestinians. their presence removes the 'Anti-semitic' label issued at anyone who speaks out against these attrocities!

Needless to say. these images are never picked up bythe mainstream media,ffs!

 

[Fitzjames]

Anyone know anything about Jews for Justice in the Middle East?
After reading their account on the situation I'd like to know how reliable their opinions are.

Well they are often described as "self loathing" by those bigots who seek to minimise their effect.

 

[Mihajlovic]

why are you being such a cnut?
quoting 911 with my post..for distraction?
you could have verified the facts yourself, poor for someone who considers themselve an intelect!!!
I will post some more links for you to simply click on to verify that Gaza and the Palestinians do have oil reserves, ffs.

you DONT understand the issues if you refuse to believe that hamas rockets are the cause of this latest conflict.
I find your attitude to this 'odd to say the least'.

As far as my satirical remark regarding 'ask them to stop beliving in god', then you really cannot grasp the situation of which you feel compelled to post solutions..?!
maybe you should reread your post about trading then read some fact about beliefs which are endenic to that region.

there are women and children and BABIES dying on a daily basis.
If you want to really help, speak out against the suffering of all the non-military personel.

here, look at the devastation which Israel has to suffer, for a balanced view...

some more lincs to verify that there IS a gas reserve on the coast of Gaza, belonging to Gaza, so they wouldnt need to rely on tourism...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jul/26/gazaagasforblair

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-supply-israel-with-gas-from-gaza-536394.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643848/Gaza-doesn't-need-aid-it-has-a-andpound2bn-gas-field.html

http://pacificfreepress.com/news/1/3574-israeli-invasion-and-gazas-offshore-gas-fields-.html

is that enough? would you like more?

I dont understand this part: "massive gas resereves off the coast of Gaza, belonging to Gaza". The first article you posted says "Palestine has a major strategic resource in its natural gas reserves off Gaza." Does that mean that it belongs to the 'Gazans' or the 'Palestinians'?! How do you decide? If it belongs to the 'Palestinians' does it then not belong to the Arabs and the Jews?! Are those fields being exploited already, and who actually owns them? Dont really know much on all this I have to admit.

Btw no need to get all bitchy with Mike, I didnt understand your "why not simply ask them to not believe in god anymore?" either.

 

[Kaos]

No one here has yet explained why Israel has broken the ceasefire on November 4th by killing 6 Palestinians.

 

[Mihajlovic]

No one here has yet explained why Israel has broken the ceasefire on November 4th by killing 6 Palestinians.

I think HR has explained it, if I remember correctly. The IAF bombed a tunnel used for smuggling weapons etc.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Another question: is there any information on how much money has already been invested into Gaza so far (by the UN, EU, USA etc.) Any figures?

Edit: just found a 2006 article from Der Spiegel.

Europe is the largest single donor to the Palestinian territories, providing €500 million a year, of which just under half goes directly to the PA.

Foreign aid: total 2005 expenditures (from countries and international organizations) 1.5 billion Euros.

Total budget of the PA 1.6 billion Euros.

I'm not really good in economy and finances etc so I'm not sure if my questions make sense but: Is that actually a lot of money? And where the hell has it all gone?!

 

[Tibs]

No one here has yet explained why Israel has broken the ceasefire on November 4th by killing 6 Palestinians.

They felt like it, they couldn't care less if they kill civilians.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Bibi, as we call him, honoured the Oslo agreements and handed Hebron to the Palestinians. The second "intifada" happened during Barak's tenure as PM.

It seems I didn't recall that correctly. My bad. Thanks for the correction.

That solid evidence isn't there at all. The world has been told for the last decade at least by USA that Iran is intent on nuclear weapons and is close to making one. But we are still awaiting them like the infamous WMD's of Sadaam. USA would love to have the world think the Iranians are Sadaam stupid. That is why they never liked the Europeans proposal for Iran eventually having a civilian nuclear program.

 

[Kaos]

I think HR has explained it, if I remember correctly. The IAF bombed a tunnel used for smuggling weapons etc.

1) If thats the official explanation then give me a source to back it up? For all I know it could be typical IDF bollocks.

2) Killing 6 Palestinians does still count as breaking a ceasefire, or does it only count when the Palestinians do the attacking?

 

[Mihajlovic]

1) If thats the official explanation then give me a source to back it up? For all I know it could be typical IDF bollocks.

2) Killing 6 Palestinians does still count as breaking a ceasefire, or does it only count when the Palestinians do the attacking?

Bollocks or not, the Israel-Gaza ceasefire was broken by Hamas only a week after it was agreed:

Israeli raid and militant rockets hit Gaza truce

By Tobias Buck in Jerusalem and Bertrand Benoit in Berlin
Published: June 25 2008 03:00 | Last updated: June 25 2008 03:00

The ceasefire agreed last week between Israel and Hamas suffered a violent setback yesterday, after Palestinian militants fired four rockets and one mortar from the Gaza Strip and Israeli forces launched a deadly incursion into the West Bank city of Nablus.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c4c07e54-424f-11dd-a5e8-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

 

[Mozza]

Bollocks or not, the Israel-Gaza ceasefire was broken by Hamas only a week after it was agreed:



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c4c07e54-424f-11dd-a5e8-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

Most likely Islamic Jihad, not Hamas

 

[Mihajlovic]

Most likely Islamic Jihad, not Hamas

Same shit.

 

[Mozza]

Same shit.

It isn't seeing as the ceasefire was with Hamas

 

[Amir]

Most likely Islamic Jihad, not Hamas

Well, the November 4 bombing was made by some airforce rebels, not really the army.

 

[Amir]

It isn't seeing as the ceasefire was with Hamas

They govern the area. They can't say they have no responsibility. That's the whole point. It's like Lebanon 'condemning' the recent missiles fired at Israel's northern border. It's your bloody responsibility to make sure it does happen.

Anyhow, during the ceasefire they used the tunnels to bring in more weapons for the time the ceasefire ended. So f*ck them.

 

[Mihajlovic]

It isn't seeing as the ceasefire was with Hamas

 

[Kaos]

Bollocks or not, the Israel-Gaza ceasefire was broken by Hamas only a week after it was agreed:



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c4c07e54-424f-11dd-a5e8-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

Fair enough, but a good 6 months after that where there was a genuine ceasefire, why did Israel suddenly decide to break it?

 

[Mihajlovic]

Meanwhile in Germany

Police Remove Israeli Flag during Islamist Protest March

By Yassin Musharbash

Police in the western German city of Duisburg have admitted they removed flags a student had hung in his apartment in support of Israel during a pro-Palestinian protest march in the city. Officers broke down his door and removed the flags. The city's police chief has issued an apology, but outrage is spreading.

It's certainly not a new phenomenon in Germany for feathers to be ruffled every time bombs fall or rockets fly in the Middle East. It is unusual, though, for German police officials to use force to enter into an apartment and remove an Israeli flag from a bedroom because people protesting the Gaza Strip invasion on the street below are bothered by it.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,601122,00.html

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Sorry in advance everyone for the long (and largely pointless) post, but I feel I need to respond.

why are you being such a cnut?

I don't believe I have been abusive to you. Please show me the same courtesy.

quoting 911 with my post..for distraction?

You linked to the page that I quoted from; I just reproduced what you wanted people to see. The reliability of sources is important, and conspiracy-nut, pseudo-academic wackjobs are not considered reliable by me. That was the point.

you could have verified the facts yourself, poor for someone who considers themselve an intelect!!!

I assumed that you had provided the highest quality link you had. After looking at the source of the information, I dismissed it as unreliable. There is a certain reputation you have on this forum for posting nonsense, so you'll have to excuse me that I didn't spend too much time investigating the accuracy of the article you linked to. It's the old 'boy who cried wolf' dilemma I suppose. Maybe this time there was a wolf, but how was I to know after all the times you've shouted it before?

you DONT understand the issues if you refuse to believe that hamas rockets are the cause of this latest conflict.

I don't refuse to believe that. I do think Hamas rockets were a large contributing factor to this latest conflict arising.

As far as my satirical remark regarding 'ask them to stop beliving in god', then you really cannot grasp the situation of which you feel compelled to post solutions..?!
maybe you should reread your post about trading then read some fact about beliefs which are endenic to that region.

I don't think ethical trading runs against the belief systems of Judaism or Islam. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

there are women and children and BABIES dying on a daily basis.
If you want to really help, speak out against the suffering of all the non-military personel.

See my post:

Can the killing of children ever be justified? Yes, probably there are some times where it is the lesser evil. In this case? Almost certainly not.

A tactic of trying to draw the fighters out of the crowded areas should at least have been tried. I know the claim is that they had to immediately return fire, but that should have been the absolute last resort in such a scenario, and I'm not convinced it was. Though admittedly we know almost nothing about the details.

I'm no military strategist but Israel seem to be rushing about everything a little too much, when they should take their time, and be more selective in their close combat.

In the end though, I know there are bound to be civilian casualties in combat zones such as these, but that doesn't make it any less sickening.

some more lincs to verify that there IS a gas reserve on the coast of Gaza, belonging to Gaza, so they wouldnt need to rely on tourism...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jul/26/gazaagasforblair

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-supply-israel-with-gas-from-gaza-536394.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643848/Gaza-doesn't-need-aid-it-has-a-andpound2bn-gas-field.html

http://pacificfreepress.com/news/1/3574-israeli-invasion-and-gazas-offshore-gas-fields-.html

is that enough? would you like more?

Thank you for posting some better links, it does seem they have a natural resource which can be exploited to help build an economy. If you'll recall my post though:

Natural resources? Not that I know of...

It was intended as an invitation to inform me. Which you did try to do in some weird 'you don't understand the situation but this conspiracy-nut job does' kind of way.

And also I didn't suggest they would need to rely on tourism, I instead suggested robust trade agreements are needed to help get them off the ground:

I'm thinking there will need to be some really robust trade agreements in place to make the Palestinian state economically viable. I mean what can they base their economy on? Tourism? Not for a long time after peace... Natural resources? Not that I know of... So it's economy will have to be largely based on the good will of it's neighbours (largely Israel) in the medium term.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Fair enough, but a good 6 months after that where there was a genuine ceasefire, why did Israel suddenly decide to break it?

Maybe this is why.

Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center (IICC)

Following intelligence information, on the night of November 4 an IDF force operated inside the Gaza Strip. The action's objective was to prevent an abduction by Hamas of Israeli soldiers from Israeli soil. The IDF force operated near the security fence, about 250 meters (less than 2/10 of a mile) inside the Gaza Strip (about 3 kilometers, or less than 2 miles, northeast of the Kissufim army post). Six IDF soldiers were wounded, two of them seriously. Six or seven Hamas terrorist operatives were killed and a number were wounded.

...

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/ct_e011.htm

 

[MikeUpNorth]

From one of the links you provided Rooneygr8:

Instead of Egypt buying Gaza's gas in the future, it suddenly began to make sense for Israel to become the purchaser: Israel's indigenous gas fields - north of the Gaza Marine field - could run out within a few years and the only other long-term source will be a pipeline from neighbouring Egypt.

At first sight, this appears a win-win situation. The Palestinians would have a guaranteed purchaser for their gas, one that would generate £50 million a year for 15 years in tax revenues, and provide the foundation for sustainable economic growth. And the Israelis would have a secure source of affordable gas to underwrite their economy's growth. It would also neatly show how two historic enemies could come to rely on each other for economic prosperity.

A negotiating team, led by Nigel Shaw from British Gas, the company that bought the rights to develop Gaza Marine, duly moved into an office block in a smart Israeli coastal town and prepared to draw up the various legal documents and guarantees that are standard in the international gas and oil industry.

But in spite of public statements from Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, that he supports the project, and even the intervention of Gordon Brown, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who identified the deal as key to the development of the Palestinian economy, negotiations have not budged.

This is exactly the kind of medium term (15 years) trade agreement between a Palestinian State and Israel I was talking of, albeit in this case actually involving a natural resource directly. The key, in my opinion, in getting somewhere towards long term stability, is to make the two nations (if they ever get that far) reliant on each other for economic success. Then they would actually want the other to prosper.

 

[Amir]

Fair enough, but a good 6 months after that where there was a genuine ceasefire, why did Israel suddenly decide to break it?

The odd missile was fired during that time as well, it's just that no one really cared.

 

[Mozza]

They govern the area. They can't say they have no responsibility. That's the whole point. It's like Lebanon 'condemning' the recent missiles fired at Israel's northern border. It's your bloody responsibility to make sure it does happen.

Anyhow, during the ceasefire they used the tunnels to bring in more weapons for the time the ceasefire ended. So f*ck them.

Israel couldn't control rocket fire with troops on the ground and all the technology of an advanced state, you expect Hamas to?

Did Israel stop arming itself during the ceasefire? The war on Gaza was months in the planning, Israel used the calm to prepare this war

 

[Mozza]

Well, the November 4 bombing was made by some airforce rebels, not really the army.

Obviously not the same thing, good try though

 

[Ballache]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,601122,00.html

what the hell?? i mean im not Israels biggest fan but this is stupid!