Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[Oranje]

There is simply no need for Palestinian parents to teach their three years olds that Jews are apes and pigs and deserve to die. Give me a break!

FFS, I was brought up in Kuwait and the UAE, supposedly the more civilised arab nations, and I was taught that Jews were animals and that no muslim would rest until every jew died. The majoirty of these people weren't Palestenian either.

They do not need no education to see who is making their lives hell. To see who is responsible for the deaths of their fathers mothers brothers sisters.

It is all about education. And I don't think we're getting anywhere when people reject this education for eye-for-an-eye mentality.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Have you ever seen what WP does to people? Sorry but that child was not killed by WP.

WP turns you into an extremely burnt piece of toast. It reduces you to a cinder.

Not always...

Here is a young boy that got toasted by an Israeli bomb during the 2006 bombing of Lebanon:




Cited:
The report I had seen on CNN several days ago, of the Palestinian victims, were very similar to the one above. I'm looking for a video link to the CNN report.




Found the report, along with one of the photos:



13/01/09

By Ben Wedeman
CNN


JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The international group Human Rights Watch is accusing Israel of firing weapons containing white phosphorus into Gaza. The group demands that the alleged practice cease.
The group's researchers in Israel "observed multiple air-bursts of artillery-fired white phosphorus over what appeared to be the Gaza City/Jabaliya area" on Friday and Saturday, the organization said on its Web site.

"Israel appeared to be using white phosphorus as an 'obscurant' [a chemical used to hide military operations], a permissible use in principle" under the laws of war, the HRW posting said.

"However, white phosphorus has a significant, incidental, incendiary effect that can severely burn people and set structures, fields, and other civilian objects in the vicinity on fire," the posting said. "The potential for harm to civilians is magnified by Gaza's high population density, among the highest in the world."

HRW said the use of white phosphorus in Gaza would violate "the requirement under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian injury and loss of life."


Cited:

_________________________________________


I believe an international court should rule that igniting a WP bomb over any location of a sort that is highlighted in Bold Print above would be considered a war crime. Say what you will, but the fact remains... there was a likelihood of innocents being torched by these devices. Israel knew exactly what they were doing and the sort of people it would affect.

 

[Cali Red]

Israel haven't come out yet to comment on the WP and you already claim to know what they used it for. Do you actually believe the bullshit you say.

That kid was saved. This one wasn't so lucky.

Do you believe the bullshit you say?

I spent a few years in the army (US). Willie Pete is not going to be used against people. Frankly it's just not that effective. It would be primarily used against mechanized or armored vehicles. WP burns when exposed to air and cannot be put out without extrodinary measures. As for illumination there are rounds that actually do that and do so very well. Same for smoke rounds.

 

[Kaos]

Do you believe the bullshit you say?

I spent a few years in the army (US).

explains everything there.

 

[atom smasher]

Do you believe the bullshit you say?

I spent a few years in the army (US). Willie Pete is not going to be used against people. Frankly it's just not that effective. It would be primarily used against mechanized or armored vehicles. WP burns when exposed to air and cannot be put out without extrodinary measures. As for illumination there are rounds that actually do that and do so very well. Same for smoke rounds.

No one is saying they used it against people. We're just saying they used it and it's not allowed. Period.

Why it isn't allowed? Well you should know, or if not you have the pictures.

 

[Cali Red]

explains everything there.

Why? Now it's a bad thing to serve in your countrys military?

 

[Kaos]

The thing I dont understand is why the Israelis dont just use regular smoke for illumination. I mean White phosphorous?! Thats like cutting someone's hair with a chainsaw.

 

[Cali Red]

No one is saying they used it against people. We're just saying they used it and it's not allowed. Period.

Why it isn't allowed? Well you should know, or if not you have the pictures.

You're mistaken.

And while those pictures are sad they prove nothing about a specific munition.

 

[Kaos]

Why? Now it's a bad thing to serve in your countrys military?

Nope, I admire the fact that you're a patriot who's stubbornly served his country, despite the fact I practically disagree with everything the Bush administration stood for.

However as a soldier I expect you've been made to passively adopt a stance which says "Arabs = bad! Israelis = good! Arab children = not important, Israeli children = important! Opponents of Israel = Terrorists!. Not patronising you, but every US soldier I've spoken to rarely speaks out against their country's foreign actions as of the last decade or so. Thats why Im hardly surprised with the stance you're adopting here.

 

[atom smasher]

You're mistaken.

And while those pictures are sad they prove nothing about a specific munition.

It is not allowed to be used in any attack where there is a possibility of hitting civilians.

 

[Cali Red]

Nope, I admire the fact that you're a patriot who's stubbornly served his country, despite the fact I practically disagree with everything the Bush administration stood for.

However as a soldier I expect you've been made to passively adopt a stance which says "Arabs = bad! Israelis = good! Arab children = not important, Israeli children = important! Opponents of Israel = Terrorists!. Not patronising you, but every US soldier I've spoken to rarely speaks out against their country's foreign actions as of the last decade or so. Thats why Im hardly surprised with the stance you're adopting here.

Completely ridiculous characterization. When I was in the military we hated commies. We didn't give a shit what god they worshiped. And the negative language in that post makes me highly skeptical you believe what you wrote.

 

[Cali Red]

It is not allowed to be used in any attack where there is a possibility of hitting civilians.

I hate to tell you but you really need to read more about it. First off the agreement regarding the use of WP hasn't been signed by many nations. Second there are many ways it can be used even by those countries that would abide by the convention. It cannot be used specifically against civilians.



Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons
Protocol III: Incendiary Weapons
Protocol III on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons prohibits, in all circumstances, making the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects, the object of attack by any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target.

 

[atom smasher]

Spending a few years in the army doesn't make you an expert - FACT

UN accuses Israel over phosphorus

The head of the UN aid agency in Gaza has accused the Israeli military of firing what was believed to be white phosphorus shells at its compound.

John Ging told the BBC that in spite of discussions with the Israeli liaison, "three rounds that emitted phosphorus" hit a corner of the Gaza City facility.

Israel's military said all weapons it used complied with international law.

Phosphorus shells are legal to use as a battlefield obscurant, but are banned from use where civilians may be harmed.

Human Rights Watch says it has observed "dozens and dozens" of white phosphorus shells being fired by Israel at the Gaza Strip - a heavily populated civilian area where its use is prohibited.

Palestinian medical officials said they had treated large numbers of casualties with unusual burns that were extremely painful to treat and could be consistent with exposure to white phosphorus (WP).

The Israeli military has declined to comment on specific munitions used during the 20-day offensive, but said any its weapons were used in compliance with international law.

There is no way independently to explain the contradiction between both sides' reports, as Israel has prevented international journalists from entering Gaza since its offensive began on 27 December.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7831424.stm

 

[Cali Red]

Spending a few years in the army doesn't make you an expert - FACT

Never claimed to be an expert. FACT. But I do have experience which is probably more than you can say and your highlighted items only make you look wrong. Looks like they are in compliance to me.

 

[atom smasher]

Never claimed to be an expert. FACT. But I do have experience which is probably more than you can say and your highlighted items only make you look wrong. Looks like they are in compliance to me.

For all you know I could be an UN expert on this matter. Read the article and look at the pictures.

 

[Nucks]

I already posted the article that outlaws the use of WP.

I already pointed out that no major military nations have signed it and are thus not bound by it.

Whatever your argument is, it is irrelevant. If you are not a signer, you are not bound by any treaty you have not signed.

This is why there is a push to have WP classified as a chemical weapon.

I've read several articles talking about how WP was used in Gaza, from sources inside Gaza if I recall correctly they indicated that it was not as of yet used in any situations that would make it illegal had Israel signed the treaty.

So there is the sensationalist headline that Israel is using WP and that WP is Illegal. However this journo did not mention the method in which it had been used which is outlined in other articles.

Additionally the sensationalist did not actually look up the supposed laws surrounding WP to discover that there actually is no such encompassing law. Rather it is a treaty that only applies if you sign into it and very few nations have.

 

[Nucks]

Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons
Protocol III
Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons.
Geneva, 10 October 1980
Article 1
Definitions

For the purpose of this Protocol:
1. Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. (a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances.
(b) Incendiary weapons do not include:
(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;
(ii) Munitions designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect, such as armour-piercing projectiles, fragmentation shells, explosive bombs and similar combined-effects munitions in which the incendiary effect is not specifically designed to cause burn injury to persons, but to be used against military objectives, such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and installations or facilities.
2. Concentration of civilians" means any concentration of civilians, be it permanent or temporary, such as in inhabited parts of cities, or inhabited towns or villages, or as in camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or groups of nomads.
3. Military objective" means, so far as objects are concerned, any object which by its nature, location, purpose or use makes an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.
4. Civilian objects" are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 3.
5. Feasible precautions" are those precautions which are practicable or practically possible taking into account all circumstances ruling at the time, including humanitarian and military considerations.

Article 2
Protection of civilians and civilian objects

1. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects the object of attack by incendiary weapons.
2. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by air-delivered incendiary weapons.
3. It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
4. It is prohibited to make forests or other kinds of plant cover the object of attack by incendiary weapons except when such natural elements are used to cover, conceal or camouflage combatants or other military objectives, or are themselves military objectives.




This is a protocol that in order for it to be applied against a state, that state must have signed and agreed to abide by these protocols.

No major military power has signed this protocol and are therefor not obliged to adhere to it

 

[Nucks]

I would also like to add.

This protocol allows the use of WP in civilian areas if it is used as a smoke device or an illuminant. If it is not used in an anti-personel manner, or to burn buildings down it falls within what the Geneva Convention considers acceptable.

Secondly, if there are military targets within civilian areas, WP is permitted to be used against these targets.

The IDF was taking fire from the UN building that received a WP shell. The round was also fired into an outside corner of a building. Enemy combatants inside the compound (I believe it was a compound) also make the building a legitimate military target.

However under article 1, section 5 it states that when engaging targets within civilian centers humanitarian as well as military considerations must be accounted for. The IDF technically could have lobbed WP all over the place, instead it limited the use of it to a less dangerous location and used the smoke generated to screen ground forces.

I would also like to add.

"GENEVA — The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest the incendiary agent is being used improperly or illegally."

So even if Israel was a signee of Protocol 3 it still hasn't broken laws in its application.

 

[sammsky1]

Here's the story behind that picture.

http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada/2006/07/how_to_demonize.html

Nice try, atom.

sounds pretty comprehensive to me... and anyway, you have posted some random weblink which has no authority nor legitimacy which anyone could have created!

Look, why don't you just call a spade a spade? Just accept that some of the things that Israel is doing right now is despicable. That is the truth. Admitting so would actually make you more credible and maybe would open your mind abit!

I like the way people like Pletch and FitzJames engage in debate. They don't agree with me, they don't hold back and yet they argue with reason and fact. I have learnt a few things that I did not appreciate in this debate in this debate before through them. For example, the reality that if the likes of HAMAS have no intention to allow for a 2 nation state and are driven by the idea of an extermination of the entire idea of 'Israel' how else can Israel behave than being in the mind set of 'full out war'. That is a very fair point and I've been thinking about that reality for the past week a great deal. I have no answer to it at all but it did broaden my view somewhat and helped me understand the Israeli mindset abit more.

Its all great to take positions etc, but just realize that on this forum, there is no victory for being right and wrong. None of us are actually engaged in this war. All we can do it seek our own peace of mind and sense of morality .. and maybe help others see our own point of view so that if one day, we were to be involved and have to make decisions that would affect this situation, we would do so bettered informed and maybe, just maybe make decisions that were for the greater good and not for personal gain.

Any man can say my view s better than yours. But only great men can say that your view is superior to mine, thank you for teaching me and I'm glad that I see the world slightly differently than I did before.

 

[holyland red]

UN representative have gone on record saying that Israel didn't break any international law by using WP. They did demand that Israel take extra precaution using the stuff in populated areas.

The whole Geneva convention argument here is futile. Not a single one of those blaming Israel for using WP suggested arresting Hamas leaders and bringing them to The Hague for committing war crimes in:

1. Intentionally targeting civilians.
2. Launching missiles FROM populated areas, thus risking their own civilians.

It therefore appears that it's not justice and the rule of law that's the main interest of the pro-Arab front here. The educated international law experts among us here also know that returning fire to fire sources is NOT a war crime even if it's a UN school that was used for firing rockets.

As things turned out, the Arabs have given up defeating Israel in the battlefield long ago. Therefore, and ever since Saddam launched Scuds at Israel in GW1, the Arabs have started targeting Israel's civilians. The strategy is to break Israel's spirit, and Israel's often been too patient to many's liking despite taking some heavy blows. As with Lebanon in 2006 and Gaza now the only way a viable and life-seeking country could respond is by heavy, "disproportionate" retaliation. No need for excuses, although those are handed to appease some administrations in the region, Europe and America. International law? Unfortunately this has to be updated in order to a address the new reality of terrorist groups-run territories.

 

[sammsky1]

Don't be ridiculous. Following your logic the Jews would have every right to hate and wish to exterminate every single German on this planet after what they have been through.

I would imagine that they do and they do

 

[holyland red]

I would imagine that they do and they do

You're wrong again.

 

[sammsky1]

Hamas has paid a heavy price for causing all the civilian deaths in Gaza, job done.

Yep, 1 Israeli life = 100 Palestinians. I'm sure some Israeli actuarial mathematician produced a spreadsheet that concluded exactly 'what price' innocent defenceless people would have to pay for Israel to proclaim that 'the job was done'.

Israel has just created over 1300 new people who lost a family member and will be motivated my the Torah itself to 'take back an eye for an eye'. Except in Israels case, its one eye of mine for one hundred of there's

 

[sammsky1]

You're wrong again.

who are you? dont respond to me. fool.

 

[sammsky1]

Nope, I admire the fact that you're a patriot who's stubbornly served his country, despite the fact I practically disagree with everything the Bush administration stood for.

However as a soldier I expect you've been made to passively adopt a stance which says "Arabs = bad! Israelis = good! Arab children = not important, Israeli children = important! Opponents of Israel = Terrorists!. Not patronising you, but every US soldier I've spoken to rarely speaks out against their country's foreign actions as of the last decade or so. Thats why Im hardly surprised with the stance you're adopting here.

pretty accurate summation I would think.

 

[Nucks]

I would imagine that they do and they do

What a stupid comment.

If you give sammsky enough rope, I'm pretty sure he will hang himself. Give it time.

 

[holyland red]

who are you? dont respond to me. fool.

I'm here to educate you about stuff like:

1. "HAMAS have no intention to allow for a 2 nation state and are driven by the idea of an extermination of the entire idea of 'Israel'"

2. "Jews would have every right to hate and wish to exterminate every single German on this planet after what they have been through", to which you replied that "they do"

 

[holyland red]

What a stupid comment.

If you give sammsky enough rope, I'm pretty sure he will hang himself. Give him a rope.

Couldn't agree more

 

[Nucks]

If Israel disarmed, it would cease to exist in a matter of days. It would be destroyed and more Israeli civilians would die in those days at the hands of groups like Hamas than Palestinians have died at the hands of the IDF in 60 years.

If the Arab nations and groups like Hamas disarmed they would have nothing to fear from Israel. A two state solution would eventually be instituted.

 

[sammsky1]

I'm here to educate you about stuff like:

1. "HAMAS have no intention to allow for a 2 nation state and are driven by the idea of an extermination of the entire idea of 'Israel'"

2. "Jews would have every right to hate and wish to exterminate every single German on this planet after what they have been through", to which you replied that "they do"

yes, but you are an idiot and my mother told me never to talk to idiots, else it might rub off on me. I can do without your 'education'' thanks.

 

[sammsky1]

What a stupid comment.

If you give sammsky enough rope, I'm pretty sure he will hang himself. Give it time.

I would guess that as the master of stupidity, of which you are, you are the most qualified of all of us here to judge what is stupid and what is not. Nice one.

You have a tendency to whine and post one line summations with 'your views' (eg 'That's stupid') and your supposed capability (eg 'I'm educated') but then not give any evidence of these claims whatsoever. You lack the skills and capability to construct any kind of argument (logical, passionate, blinded, even flawed). And most hilariously of all, you attempt to cast yourself as some kind of expert on this matter.

Dear oh dear. Takes a fool to know a fool which I guess is why HolyDick and yourself seem to agree on most matters.

 

[holyland red]

yes, but you are an idiot and my mother told me never to talk to idiots, else it might rub off on me. I can do without your 'education'' thanks.

Judging by this thread she was right, and you should have listened to her advice.

 

[Nucks]

I would guess that as the master of stupidity, of which you are, you are the most qualified of all of us here to judge what is stupid and what is not. Nice one.

You have a tendency to whine and post one line summations with 'your views' (eg 'That's stupid') and your supposed capability (eg 'I'm educated') but then not give any evidence of these claims whatsoever. You lack the skills and capability to construct any kind of argument (logical, passionate, blinded, even flawed). And most hilariously of all, you attempt to cast yourself as some kind of expert on this matter.

Dear oh dear. Takes a fool to know a fool which I guess is why HolyDick and yourself seem to agree on most matters.

You believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories and you resort to ad hominem attacks.

I don't think I need to post anything else. You shoot your credibility down yourself.

Please continue, it is only a matter of time until you prove your true colors.

Oh, and how is your vernacular coming along? Constantly expanding your vernacular? You sure do have lots of words in your vernacular.

 

[sammsky1]

You believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories and you resort to ad hominem attacks.

I don't think I need to post anything else. You shoot your credibility down yourself.

Please continue, it is only a matter of time until you prove your true colors.

Oh, and how is your vernacular coming along? Constantly expanding your vernacular? You sure do have lots of words in your vernacular.

 

[Mihajlovic]

sounds pretty comprehensive to me... and anyway, you have posted some random weblink which has no authority nor legitimacy which anyone could have created!

I never said that it has any final authority on the matter, I said there is a picture behind that story, can you not read? We all know photography can be deceiving and that media can be a powerful propaganda tool. It seems that the picture with the Israeli kids signing the rockets was staged. Maybe it wasn't but maybe it was, this is why it has to be taken with care.

Look, why don't you just call a spade a spade? Just accept that some of the things that Israel is doing right now is despicable. That is the truth. Admitting so would actually make you more credible and maybe would open your mind abit!

I never said Israels army is full of saints or angels from heaven. There are idiots in their army as there are idiots in every army in the world. And some of them might use the chance to abuse the situation and what not. Whatever you might think of them they are still a professional army that acts professionally and not a bunch of gangsters/smugglers/killers like the Hamas.

Luckily my credibility does not depend on your approval.

I like the way people like Pletch and FitzJames engage in debate. They don't agree with me, they don't hold back and yet they argue with reason and fact. I have learnt a few things that I did not appreciate in this debate in this debate before through them. For example, the reality that if the likes of HAMAS have no intention to allow for a 2 nation state and are driven by the idea of an extermination of the entire idea of 'Israel' how else can Israel behave than being in the mind set of 'full out war'. That is a very fair point and I've been thinking about that reality for the past week a great deal. I have no answer to it at all but it did broaden my view somewhat and helped me understand the Israeli mindset abit more.

Congratulations, you started thinking.

Its all great to take positions etc, but just realize that on this forum, there is no victory for being right and wrong. None of us are actually engaged in this war. All we can do it seek our own peace of mind and sense of morality .. and maybe help others see our own point of view so that if one day, we were to be involved and have to make decisions that would affect this situation, we would do so bettered informed and maybe, just maybe make decisions that were for the greater good and not for personal gain.

Any man can say my view s better than yours. But only great men can say that your view is superior to mine, thank you for teaching me and I'm glad that I see the world slightly differently than I did before.

None of the posters here are directly engaged in the war, that's true, however, there are a few posters from Israel who are indirectly involved in this conflict because it concerns their place of living, their security, their future etc.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

How's the baby killing going? Good? Seems like it's going well from the photos. Congrats on becoming the same as your hated Nazis, Israel!

 

[Frosty]

Those comparisons are as unhelpful as comparing Hamas to Nazism. That is me being very kind.

 

[Nucks]

Well I'll take that as a huge compliment!

sorry, of course you are right: To take an Anti Israel position is being Anti Semitic. Yep!

By the way, did you have all those words in your vernacular or were you being abit of a thesaurus meister?

^^^^^^^

 

[Raoul]

Don't post any more casualty pictures in this thread. If you're not smart enough to articulate your point without illustrations then at least post the link to the pictures so we can choose whether or not we want to look at them.

 

[Amir]

How's the baby killing going? Good? Seems like it's going well from the photos. Congrats on becoming the same as your hated Nazis, Israel!

Idiot.

Bloody idiot.