Nani

championo said:
That is what SAF is also doing not just Rooney. You should see SAF when Nani makes a bad decision. I wonder why he is not like that to all players, even Foster is spared the public reaction.
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Showing signs of frustration are one thing. Talking to him and making constructive criticism is as well. Standing there and giving another player a 10 second blast is completely another, especially when he actually made the right decision (even if it didn't quite work). As I said, it reminds me very much of what Ruud was doing with Ronaldo towards the end of his time here.

That first incident really did stick in my mind. Rooney blew up at him, Nani started indicating that Berbatov was in space and he was trying to play him in, Rooney talked straight over the top of him and then turned his back and walked away, leaving Nani standing there looking bemused and still trying to explain what he was trying to do. I was yelling at the tv telling Rooney to wake up to himself for that.
 
I'd do the same if I was Rooney. Just think how frustrating it is watching him...nevermid playing with him.
 
MadDogg said:
That first incident really did stick in my mind. Rooney blew up at him, Nani started indicating that Berbatov was in space and he was trying to play him in, Rooney talked straight over the top of him and then turned his back and walked away, leaving Nani standing there looking bemused and still trying to explain what he was trying to do. I was yelling at the tv telling Rooney to wake up to himself for that.
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I will go and watch this again, I remember the half time talk and the one when Rooney was around the penalty spot and he did not get the ball from Nani, but comparing it to the Ruud reaction to Ronaldo and Forlan makes me want to go and check it again because Ruud went OTT.
 
At the moment, Fletcher, Rooney, Evra and Giggs are carrying us, a number of players need to step up and do it this season, and it's normal that a younger players, signed for £17m based on his potential two years ago, would come in for more stick when he's continually wasting attacking opportunities. He's far from the only player not having a positive effect on the team, but he's one who you'd expect to be doing it this season.
 
Thought he was really realy poor today. I'm just not convinced with our wingers. None of them look to be real threats. Most are workman like and the one with great ability is bloody frustrating. Nani started the season well, a few hiccups but lets hope he gets back to his form in the early few games.

But today was odd because I constantly felt that we were keeping the ball really well but the wide players were giving us no creativity/ goal threat at all. Giggs changed that.
 
Just watched the game on Football First and MOTD as I wanted a proper look at Nani and Valencia as they have taken a hammering in the matchday and the ratings thread. Let's take Nani first.

His crossing was generally pretty poor and he made that one horrible decision to shoot on his left side after Rooney had turned Shawcross to set the attack up and was free on the edge of the box when he should have been played in. He really is not going to win himself fans with decisions like that.

On the positive side, there was some nice moments of skill and some decent link up play with Evra and a couple of moments of genuine class. That shot Sorensen pushed away at full stretch was the highlight of his performance. I only caught a quick glimpse of it but that curler he tried from the short corner that curled just wide of the far post did not look to far off either. I think Fergie was probably in two minds whether he was going to sub Nani or Valecia for Giggs but Nani's start to the second half made his mind up as his crossing was again poor.

As for Valencia, well he did miss that guilt edged chance in the opening part of the game when he should have done better. He did the same against VDS at Wigan last year when he lifted a one on one wide when he should have scored. His crossing was also generally poor first half as most of them were overhit but he did so some nice touches and his appoach play in giving himself space to put the cross in is good. A trend he continued into the second half when I thought he improved. Also put a decent cross in for Berbatov who had made the run to early and was offside.

Can't fault either of them on their tracking back. This was something many people questioned at the start of the season with Nani but he seems to be fine with this task.

Now I can see how watching this live they must have done everyone's head in as the service from the wings, bar Giggs, has taken a noticeable dive in quality since the Besiktas game. That is about the third game in a row when more often than not Nani and Valencia are not giving the strikers decent service and you can't conviently blame 4-3-3 on Wolves or today. Put simply, the quality of the crossing has not been good enough and it is something they are both going to have to improve upon as we cannot rely solely on Giggs forever.

In Nani's case, the last three games he has started has seen him back to some of last season's frustrating habits and poor decision making. I actually thought he was one of United's better players against Wolves and put down his continual shite final ball as just one of those nights as he has generally alot better in the early part of the season but it was the same story for the most part today without the bonus that he was skinning his full back every time he was against him.

With that said, I still think there is a very good player awaiting to emerge with Nani and that it is best if Fergie perseveres with him for the next few games. United have Wolfsburg, Sunderland and Bolton at home as the next three games and we should be able to win all three. I'd start him in all of these games to see how he goes on. Even if he is not convincing enough for Fergie to fully trust him in the killer away games at Liverpool and Chelsea coming up i'd still back him as someone likely to make an impact with a goal or an assist in those type of games and we could do with another player outside of the strikers who can be a matchwinner in these type of games. At the moment if the forwards are not scoring the rest of the goals are coming from set pieces, again invariably made or taken by Giggs.

As for Valencia, as a new signing he is still fitting into United and has abit more time on his side than Nani. I know Valencia is older than Nani and has played longer in the English game but he still only been a United player for a couple of months and should be cut abit more slack as a result. The time to fully judge him is when he had a full season to settle in to our style of play. I'd still back him with a decent run in the side in these upcoming home games mind you and ration Giggs so he can keep up this stunning form.

Either way, United need Valencia and Nani to find some form as they still stick out as the two best wingers to be used constantly in a 4-4-2 as Giggs is only ever going to be a one game a week player and we should not be so reliant on him as we have been last few games.
 
To end my Nani comments for the day, I think he needs help. Somebody should help him with situational football. Especially when he gets to the great position near the penalty box, he just looks like he has not got a clue what to do with the football.
Is SAF spending time with the players anymore? I mean one on one time? There are strong indications from different interviews from our players that he hardly takes part in training and leaves it to the coaches to do that.
Players are different and someone like Nani needs CQ. When Giggs was coming on, I don't know if our supporters were cheering for Giggs or cheering that Nani was being taken out. :nervous:
 
championo said:
To end my Nani comments for the day, I think he needs help. Somebody should help him with situational football. Especially when he gets to the great position near the penalty box, he just looks like he has not got a clue what to do with the football.
Is SAF spending time with the players anymore? I mean one on one time? There are strong indications from different interviews from our players that he hardly takes part in training and leaves it to the coaches to do that.
Players are different and someone like Nani needs CQ. When Giggs was coming on, I don't know if our supporters were cheering for Giggs or cheering that Nani was being taken out. :nervous:
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I imagine he is getting no coaching at all. We just let him work on whatever he wants to.
 
I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Nani. I'm pretty sure he knows that the fans that go to the games aren't particularly fond of him. His teammates spend most of the time he's on the pitch having a go at him. And if he watches the games on TV afterward, which I imagine he does, he'll obviously see the camera focusing on Fergie's expression when he's done something wrong.
 
datura said:
I imagine he is getting no coaching at all. We just let him work on whatever he wants to.
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That is not what I am saying at all, I just feel he may not be getting the time that he needs with the coaches since there are a lot of players for them to assist as well.
I can give you an example, if you read stuff from Moyes, he will tell you the amount of his personal time he has put into working on Saha's mind. It is really extensive stuff and I doubt anyone here bothered to go to that extend over Saha. SAF knew the problem with Saha, said it a couple of times in interviews, but I doubt he had the personal time for a player like Saha. It is early, but the signs are there that Moyes has revived him.
 
Domzi said:
I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Nani. I'm pretty sure he knows that the fans that go to the games aren't particularly fond of him. His teammates spend most of the time he's on the pitch having a go at him. And if he watches the games on TV afterward, which I imagine he does, he'll obviously see the camera focusing on Fergie's expression when he's done something wrong.
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Hopefully if he has noticed those things he'll channel his frustration into making himself a better player and making himself the player a lot of us know he has the potential to be. But again today he was terribly frustrating to watch. Hopefully he'll learn from Giggs and see that the simple things sometimes work best; rather than trying something special all of the time.
 
championo said:
That is not what I am saying at all, I just feel he may not be getting the time that he needs with the coaches since there are a lot of players for them to assist as well.
I can give you an example, if you read stuff from Moyes, he will tell you the amount of his personal time he has put into working on Saha's mind. It is really extensive stuff and I doubt anyone here bothered to go to that extend over Saha. SAF knew the problem with Saha, said it a couple of times in interviews, but I doubt he had the personal time for a player like Saha. It is early, but the signs are there that Moyes has revived him.
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Different managers have different styles and what works for some players doesn't work for others. I think it's pretty naive to suggest that Nani is not been given the correct coaching or advice, we have one of the greatest managers at developing youngsters and getting the best out of players.
 
Domzi said:
I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Nani. I'm pretty sure he knows that the fans that go to the games aren't particularly fond of him. His teammates spend most of the time he's on the pitch having a go at him. And if he watches the games on TV afterward, which I imagine he does, he'll obviously see the camera focusing on Fergie's expression when he's done something wrong.
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It's not his team-mates' fault if he's fecking stupid and rarely make a good choice. He's a Manchester United football player, if he can't deal with exacting players or with the pressure, feck him. I really want him to step up as he's obviously very talented, but his decision making hasn't improved since he joined us. I won't feel sorry for him unless he stops playing like a beach soccer player and starts to focus on the way he plays and tries to sort it out.
 
Boss said:
I hate when match of the day do that to certain players with their blatant Pre-recorded commentary!
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I thought that was ridiculous. The way they highlighted Nani was poor, wouldn't have happened if he was English.

Also people writing off Nani so early, remember Darren Fletcher when he was 21/22? Nani has been better than Fletcher was at that age, so I think he deserves more of a chance. Foster has made huge clangers this season but yet people are still willing to give him a chance. Nani was poor today, but he's still a very talented footballer
 
either way we need more from our wide men - we spent something like 16 million for nani and despite his potential it hasnt come close to being realised yet - as for valencia apart from his speed trick he has nothing really

time to think about ribery/silva as we had no quality wide today untul ryan came on and we shouldnt have to rely on rooney and giggs every game
 
buckooo1978 said:
either way we need more from our wide men - we spent something like 16 million for nani and despite his potential it hasnt come close to being realised yet - as for valencia apart from his speed trick he has nothing really

time to think about ribery/silva as we had no quality wide today untul ryan came on and we shouldnt have to rely on rooney and giggs every game
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It's kind of hilarious how it's come full circle: Giggs on the wing... Just when you thought the future was away from him and his focus would be support striker and in the middle, he goes and does something like today that just blows your mind.

A fun fact: Nani is what, a decade and a bit younger then Ryan Giggs?... Time is of the essence, if he's still developing and it's not hindering us in terms of results, let him learn... SAME can be said for Foster.
 
The patience of the latter day fan is astounding... imagine if some of you supported arsenal/liverpool...
 
afrocentricity said:
The patience of the latter day fan is astounding... imagine if some of you supported arsenal/liverpool...
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Yeah it really is shocking that some people are already completely dismissing a 22 year old player.
 
buckooo1978 said:
either way we need more from our wide men - we spent something like 16 million for nani and despite his potential it hasnt come close to being realised yet - as for valencia apart from his speed trick he has nothing really

time to think about ribery/silva as we had no quality wide today untul ryan came on and we shouldnt have to rely on rooney and giggs every game
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So true.. probably why most United fans didn't notice him when he played for Wigan.

As far as Nani goes i think he will come good in time, he's got good attributes as frustrating as he may be but most things will develop with age. Ryan Giggs was very frustrating to watch at times even at 28... Although he will always be classes above players like Nani. Shocked at home little pace Nani has though or is Shawcross extremely quick? :nervous:
 
Mainoldo said:
Probably be moaning about Ryan Babel or Bentnar/Walcott instead. Fans will always moan mate part of life.
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They'd be moaning about a whole lot more than just that, which is my point.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Thought he was really realy poor today. I'm just not convinced with our wingers. None of them look to be real threats. Most are workman like and the one with great ability is bloody frustrating. Nani started the season well, a few hiccups but lets hope he gets back to his form in the early few games.

But today was odd because I constantly felt that we were keeping the ball really well but the wide players were giving us no creativity/ goal threat at all. Giggs changed that.
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This. People talk about alleged lack of creativity in our center midfield. But IMO our biggest problem is the lack of consistent quality our wingers produce. It's shameful that our best wide man is a former winger.
 
Psmith said:
I thought that was ridiculous. The way they highlighted Nani was poor, wouldn't have happened if he was English.

Also people writing off Nani so early, remember Darren Fletcher when he was 21/22? Nani has been better than Fletcher was at that age, so I think he deserves more of a chance. Foster has made huge clangers this season but yet people are still willing to give him a chance. Nani was poor today, but he's still a very talented footballer
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Agreed
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
This. People talk about alleged lack of creativity in our center midfield. But IMO our biggest problem is the lack of consistent quality our wingers produce. It's shameful that our best wide man is a former winger.
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To be fair i didn't really notice that untill yestarday! Which rightfully said had to be shown from a guy that can't play week in week out.
 
It's ok, I think Obertan will be along soon to put Nani out of his misery. He should be taking the chance now whilst he has it but unfortunately and some people need to admit this, he isn't good enough. You can talk all you want about potential but after 2 seasons Ronaldo was showing many improvements in his decision making and end product, Nani has improved very little in that respect. If he doesn't show the improvements this season he'll be gone, or nothing more than a backup.
 
Redfighter said:
It's ok, I think Obertan will be along soon to put Nani out of his misery. He should be taking the chance now whilst he has it but unfortunately and some people need to admit this, he isn't good enough. You can talk all you want about potential but after 2 seasons Ronaldo was showing many improvements in his decision making and end product, Nani has improved very little in that respect. If he doesn't show the improvements this season he'll be gone, or nothing more than a backup.
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To be honest i think Nani will turn out better than Valencia(who will be shown to be a was of money when Obertan comes through).
 
Mainoldo said:
So true.. probably why most United fans didn't notice him when he played for Wigan.

As far as Nani goes i think he will come good in time, he's got good attributes as frustrating as he may be but most things will develop with age. Ryan Giggs was very frustrating to watch at times even at 28... Although he will always be classes above players like Nani. Shocked at home little pace Nani has though or is Shawcross extremely quick? :nervous:
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There really does appear to a misconception that every winger needs to have a trick, for instance a step over or something brazilian-eque. thats complete rubbish.

One of the best wingers i've ever seen play like was Mark Overmars(during his Ajax days) and he never really had a trick as such, he just had blistering pace, excellent close control at pace and good crossing abilty. That was enougth to provide excellent end product.

I see Valencia as progressing toward becoming the same type of player, You actually don't need to be able to produce step overs to beat you man, its a sudden turn of pace and excellent close control that can prove alot more effect as its a more direct route to goal rather than stepovers which on occasion only serve to hold up play(which can be a problem in a side that counter attacks as effectively as we do).

Fergie has made statements to the effect that they see him as a work in progress and thats how supporters should regard him, on the occasions his impressed its been by being direct and using the good close control and crossing ability he has.

I've seen enougth of him to tell me that alot of united supporters will be forced to eat their words soon enougth in much the same way that they were about Evra. I honestly don't see why he cannot within 2 good seasons with us become one of the best natural wingers in Europe.

cina said:
Yeah it really is shocking that some people are already completely dismissing a 22 year old player.
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True, I find Nani as frustrating as the next man, but he is only 22 and to sell him as most people seem to be suggesting is ludicrous. In 2-3 seasons he could become one of the best players in Europe such is the lottery that is player development. To sell such a clearly talented player to a top european for less than we bought him for and then to see him become a top player there would be stupid. I would settle for a good level of consistancy till the end of the season followed by clear progress the next.
 
BAMSOLA said:
There really does appear to a misconception that every winger needs to have a trick, for instance a step over or something brazilian-eque. thats complete rubbish.

One of the best wingers i've ever seen play like was Mark Overmars(during his Ajax days) and he never really had a trick as such, he just had blistering pace, excellent close control at pace and good crossing abilty. That was enougth to provide excellent end product.

I see Valencia as progressing toward becoming the same type of player, You actually don't need to be able to produce step overs to beat you man, its a sudden turn of pace and excellent close control that can prove alot more effect as its a more direct route to goal rather than stepovers which on occasion only serve to hold up play(which can be a problem in a side that counter attacks as effectively as we do).
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Overmars trick ala Beckham was in his decision making.
 
MadDogg said:
Showing signs of frustration are one thing. Talking to him and making constructive criticism is as well. Standing there and giving another player a 10 second blast is completely another, especially when he actually made the right decision (even if it didn't quite work). As I said, it reminds me very much of what Ruud was doing with Ronaldo towards the end of his time here.

That first incident really did stick in my mind. Rooney blew up at him, Nani started indicating that Berbatov was in space and he was trying to play him in, Rooney talked straight over the top of him and then turned his back and walked away, leaving Nani standing there looking bemused and still trying to explain what he was trying to do. I was yelling at the tv telling Rooney to wake up to himself for that.
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I thought the same thing. I genuinely felt bad for Nani today. He was just off the pace completely. But we shouldn't have been trying for crosses time and time again, when we only have Rooney and Berbatov up front. Berbatov as tall as he may be, is not the most prolific header of the ball. And neither is Rooney. We shouldn't have been fighting the height of Stoke City when we couldn't compete with them in the air. And Giggs seemed to have noticed it in the first goal. When the ball is on the ground we were running circles around them.

Yes the second was a header, but we had the likes of O'shea, Ferdinand and Vidic up for it. Better competition to say the least.
 
So he was doing ok and then two dodgy games...

Yes the game changed when Giggs came on. Giggs is a legend, he's played more games for the club then anyone....at 35 he's vastly experienced....

Nani is still young - people look foolish when they keep moaning or suggesting we'll sell him. It can take a lot of paitence and less prejudice

Let's forget previous seasons. Prior to the last two games - he was doing fine. Let's get him back to those performances and alls well again.
 
BAMSOLA said:
There really does appear to a misconception that every winger needs to have a trick, for instance a step over or something brazilian-eque. thats complete rubbish.

One of the best wingers i've ever seen play like was Mark Overmars(during his Ajax days) and he never really had a trick as such, he just had blistering pace, excellent close control at pace and good crossing abilty. That was enougth to provide excellent end product.

I see Valencia as progressing toward becoming the same type of player, You actually don't need to be able to produce step overs to beat you man, its a sudden turn of pace and excellent close control that can prove alot more effect as its a more direct route to goal rather than stepovers which on occasion only serve to hold up play(which can be a problem in a side that counter attacks as effectively as we do).

Fergie has made statements to the effect that they see him as a work in progress and thats how supporters should regard him, on the occasions his impressed its been by being direct and using the good close control and crossing ability he has.

I've seen enougth of him to tell me that alot of united supporters will be forced to eat their words soon enougth in much the same way that they were about Evra. I honestly don't see why he cannot within 2 good seasons with us become one of the best natural wingers in Europe.
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Not knowing much about Evra from English fans is understandable. Although even with the bad defensive attributes he showed on first arrival you would have been a fool not to see the guy had quality and was going to be quality. Nowhere was it stated that he needs a trick to be a good winger we could list a good few wingers if you want that have been great apart from Overmars that never used fancy stepovers. The fact is Valencia seems like at hit and run after it type of player which everything else seems difficult to him. Players like Overmars had more to their game than just being quick.

There's nothing wrong with giving the guy time just never know he was so unpolished... Last year and a few other times before when we where linked with him there was talk that he was a more complete player than Nani... I just don't see it thats all.
 
Striker10 said:
So he was doing ok and then two dodgy games...

Yes the game changed when Giggs came on. Giggs is a legend, he's played more games for the club then anyone....at 35 he's vastly experienced....

Nani is still young - people look foolish when they keep moaning or suggesting we'll sell him. It can take a lot of paitence and less prejudice

Let's forget previous seasons. Prior to the last two games - he was doing fine. Let's get him back to those performances and alls well again.
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He wasn't doing fine; he'd had a few good moments in a couple of games, that's all. He's been below-par for the most part this season and below where he needs to be.

How much time do we give him? He's in his 3rd season already, what if this one is as bad as the last one? Do we give him another season after that? For the price we paid for him, and for the talent he showed in his first season, you'd expect a better return than what we've got.
 
esmufc09 said:
He wasn't doing fine; he'd had a few good moments in a couple of games, that's all. He's been below-par for the most part this season and below where he needs to be.

How much time do we give him? He's in his 3rd season already, what if this one is as bad as the last one? Do we give him another season after that? For the price we paid for him, and for the talent he showed in his first season, you'd expect a better return than what we've got.
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I think the first few games he played this season were very encouraging, from his goal in the CS to some improved crossing and general wing play in his first few league games, but his last couple of performances have been extremely frustrating.

Although I tend to echo what you're saying in parts, what would the solution actually be? Short of going out and spending even more money on an unproven player in this league, who could we buy? Whether you like it or not, he's arguably our best attacking option on that wing, unless you want Giggs to play there every game.
 
AlwynP said:
I think the first few games he played this season were very encouraging, from his goal in the CS to some improved crossing and general wing play in his first few league games, but his last couple of performances have been extremely frustrating.
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He scored against Chelsea but the rest of the game he was pretty frustrating with his decision making and his lack of quality crosses. We had both Rooney and Berbatov on the field that day so there's no excuse to be had like people used to defend him in the Wolves match.

Wigan has been his best game by a mile, the rest he's been prety bog-standard if I'm being honest, particularly in the last two where, as you say, he's been hugely frustrating.

Although I tend to echo what you're saying in parts, what would the solution actually be? Short of going out and spending even more money on an unproven player in this league, who could we buy? Whether you like it or not, he's arguably our best attacking option on that wing, unless you want Giggs to play there every game.
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The reason I think we will sell him this season if he doesn't improve is because our midfield is starting to look rather weak. Scholes and Giggs, although they keep defying the odds, are getting on and I would expect both to have retired within 2 years; and neither are going to play week in, week out anymore as we all know. Park just doesn't cut it anymore; his last good game (As mentioned in OTB) was against Arsenal in the CL Semi. Hargreaves cannot be relied upon either.

So if we do decide to give him another season, and then he still doesn't improve, we'll then have to bring in someone else and give them a season to settle in. That's 5 years and no replacement.
 
Capable of going from the sublime to the enfuriating in a matter of moments. Reminds me of Diaby in that regard.
 
Mainoldo said:
To be honest i think Nani will turn out better than Valencia(who will be shown to be a was of money when Obertan comes through).
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Jesus, there's some bollox talked in this thread but that takes the biscuit. You're actually basing your opinion on Obertan on YouTube aren't you? Either that or a couple of U-21 games. Either way, that's a ridiculous claim to make.

Let's wait until AFTER Obertan is voted one of the best young players in WC 2010 before saying he's gonna make Valencia seem a waste of money, shall we?
 
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