Protest against Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) caricature in Oslo

Mike, you said "What is clear is that the major religions of the world are brilliantly designed (consciously or unconsciously) to acquire followers and retain them."

I think this is true if you're talking about religion (religious groups) as a business, or a political power. In the 'true sense of the Gospel', however, the motivation for 'acquiring' followers is radically different.

But yes, your other points stand and the one which is specifically annoying me is the creation of us vs them mentality which is predominant amongst the Evangelical radicals, at least. But the us vs them is just an inevitable characteristic of all social groups, imo.
 
Mike, you said "What is clear is that the major religions of the world are brilliantly designed (consciously or unconsciously) to acquire followers and retain them."

I think this is true if you're talking about religion (religious groups) as a business, or a political power. In the 'true sense of the Gospel', however, the motivation for 'acquiring' followers is radically different.

Whatever the motivation, the major religions have acquired and retained huge numbers of followers and it is a fascinating phenomenon which needs explanation. Even if you do believe one of the religions to be the correct one, there is still the task of explaining how the incorrect religions have got so many followers, as opposed to the religions which went extinct.

But yes, your other points stand and the one which is specifically annoying me is the creation of us vs them mentality which is predominant amongst the Evangelical radicals, at least. But the us vs them is just an inevitable characteristic of all social groups, imo.

To an extent yes, although I think the 'us and them' mentality is scripturally encouraged by the monotheisms.
 
Joga,

I agree with your statement but I believe this depends on how willing the poster really is to engage in a intelligent debate. The fact is there are a few posters on this forum who dont care that much about context or no context. NiMic is of those guys. Any further discussion with him would be an utter waste of time.

Your other point is interesting as it deals with the history of interpretation. I would argue that a person can either genuinely or deliberately misinterpreted a certain passage. I'm not sure how a incidental, genuine misinterpretation would lead to disastrous consequences (Im trying to think of an possible example), but I can definitely see how a person, or a group, would use a certain passage in order to promote their own agendas while at the same time disregarding the context, or making no effort whatsoever to investigate if their actions are properly backed up by the theology.

About the high number of Christian denominations: I would say the vast majority of them agree and share their major doctrines (issues on repentance, forgiveness, salvation, Jesus' sacrifice, etc.). However, you could say that they differ in loads of minor details. For example you can have a major baptist church and only one person (or maybe few people) who disagree on one detail- this can already be enough for this person to step out of the church and organize a new one (thus creating a new denomination), which will only slightly differ from the original one. I have been to quite a few Christian churches and interestingly many of them are comprised of former Methodists, former Baptists, former this and that. Still, if you'd ask all those 38,000 denominations to write down their top three beliefs, or doctrines, I bet 99% of them would be identical.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm glad you're not afraid to have serious discussions with someone who disagrees with you and will point it out.

Oh, wait..
 
Whatever the motivation, the major religions have acquired and retained huge numbers of followers and it is a fascinating phenomenon which needs explanation. Even if you do believe one of the religions to be the correct one, there is still the task of explaining how the incorrect religions have got so many followers, as opposed to the religions which went extinct.



To an extent yes, although I think the 'us and them' mentality is scripturally encouraged by the monotheisms.

Maybe, but scripturally this is only seen as a consequence of people's separation from God. For example in the OT you have the flood narrative and the idea of Noah preaching to the people around him for years, the people, however, do not respond and thus separate themselves from God (them vs. God) and in the end only Noah and his family is saved. And then later throughout all narratives, historical records, prophecies and poetry, there is this constant notion of 'God trying to reconnect with his creation' only to continuously be dismissed. If an 'us vs. them' mentality is encouraged then not for the sake of separation but in order to preserve 'holiness' amongst the remnant. But many times this construct is perverted by religious groups who view themselves as holy and define themselves completely in opposition to the 'otherness of the unholy', thus contributing to a creation of antagonism which was actually never intended by the God they believe in.
 
I just find it really strange that anyone should feel so outraged about a stupid cartoon that they feel the need to take to the streets and protest. I can't even begin to relate to that sort of mind-set. It just comes across as incredibly insecure and uptight. Which is odd, because I always thought that one of the very few benefits of being a committed theist (of any religion) is an emphasis on forgiveness, on being comfortable in one's own skin and an ability to look beyond worldly problems and see the bigger picture.

It's just ink on paper. I'm sure whichever spritual being is portayed in an offensive manner has more important things to worry about going on in the world today than a crap caricature in a local paper. So why do his followers get so irate?

If any newspaper publishes content that offends there is an option not to buy that newspaper. If someone is confident in their faith of choice, surely the correct emotion to feel would be to pity the people so blinded by hate and intolerance that they feel the need to gratuitously provoke? Shouldn't the protestors carry on with their normal lives? At best, maybe take a moment to pray for the journalists involve but why take to the streets in anger?

I will always be baffled by the extreme sensitivity of people with faith and the fact religion seems to constantly be drawn into situations of conflict, bitterness and anger. It's yet another reason I feel I've made the right decision in bringing my child up to form his own opinions in life.

great post - thanks pogue
 
While many atheists do dismiss serious scholarship with respect to the bible, to my continuing dismay, it must be said that it pales in comparison to the poor scholarship that has been done, to the detriment of Christianity, in my opinion, by Christians, themselves. And what you so often find is that they tend to have political, and not theological, reasons for wanting to interpret the bible in that way. As many studies have shown, a lot of what people interpret God and the bible as saying, particularly concerning morality, tends to exactly mirror there own view. That may not appear to be a surprise, at first glance, but it has been shown that they are, in fact, projecting their own personal biases on to the text, rather than honestly assessing what it actually says.
The report disappointed me. I went to read it because I am sympethetic to the view that we are inclined to interpret facts in light of our own pre-conceived opinions, whether the facts are scientific ones or the words written in the Bible. However, I don't see the research as suggesting that "they are projecting their own personal biases on to the text, rather than honestly assessing what it actually say." It only suggests that people who believe in God, believe that the moral thing to do is what God says is the moral thing to do. And as far as I know God hasn't said much about things such as affirmative action, so the believer has to try and apply the Christian virtues to the given case in a way that give the appropriate considerations of the facts and context. And so on. Right?
 
The report disappointed me. I went to read it because I am sympethetic to the view that we are inclined to interpret facts in light of our own pre-conceived opinions, whether the facts are scientific ones or the words written in the Bible. However, I don't see the research as suggesting that "they are projecting their own personal biases on to the text, rather than honestly assessing what it actually say." It only suggests that people who believe in God, believe that the moral thing to do is what God says is the moral thing to do. And as far as I know God hasn't said much about things such as affirmative action, so the believer has to try and apply the Christian virtues to the given case in a way that give the appropriate considerations of the facts and context. And so on. Right?

The fact that there is very little difference in brain activity when accessing your own opinion and that of god suggests that they are functionally similar doesn't it? If you were genuinely accessing god's opinion then you would expect similar brain activity to when you assess another agent's opinion, but the study suggests this isn't the case.
 
The fact that there is very little difference in brain activity when accessing your own opinion and that of god suggests that they are functionally similar doesn't it? If you were genuinely accessing god's opinion then you would expect similar brain activity to when you assess another agent's opinion, but the study suggests this isn't the case.
That depends, I suppose. Remember that the test persons aren't theological scholars, it is likely that most of their (moral) beliefs on these matters and their beliefs about God's "opinions" are derived from the same source or authorities. They've become one, so to say. (So "God hate fags" becomes "I hate fags" becomes "how do I best express faghatingness in this particular situation?")

And I am not sure if "you would expect similar brain activity to when you assess another agent's opinion". Would you expect similar brain activity when you think about whether or not a glass would break when you throw it into a wall and why, as when you try to figure out what your mother, for instance, would've thought about it? I don't know enough about neuroscience to know that, so if you do I'd love for you to enlighten me.
 
:lol: it's a great concept. The world would be a much better place if the line went:

THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT ME, IMHO
Yeah, the wording in the article is peculiar too. They go on about "God's beliefs". God doesn't believe, s/he knows, or wills. Or so I've been told.
 
That depends, I suppose. Remember that the test persons aren't theological scholars, it is likely that most of their (moral) beliefs on these matters and their beliefs about God's "opinions" are derived from the same source or authorities. They've become one, so to say. (So "God hate fags" becomes "I hate fags" becomes "how do I best express faghatingness in this particular situation?")

And I am not sure if "you would expect similar brain activity to when you assess another agent's opinion". Would you expect similar brain activity when you think about whether or not a glass would break when you throw it into a wall and why, as when you try to figure out what your mother, for instance, would've thought about it? I don't know enough about neuroscience to know that, so if you do I'd love for you to enlighten me.

Your example in the second paragraph doesn't seem relevant. The clear example would be asking the subject for example:

a) Do you think abortion is immoral?
b) Do you think your father considers abortion to be immoral (assuming the father holds the same view as the subject)?
c) Do you think god considers abortion to be immoral?

If the subject gives the same response for all three, but the brain states are only the same for a and c but not b, then that would strongly suggest people map their own views onto god. I don't know if this research shows this conclusively, but to me it does seem to suggest it.
 
:lol: it's a great concept. The world would be a much better place if the line went:

THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT ME, IMHO

How can a god's view on, say, vegetarianism be anything other than an opinion?
 
And the Lord said, "On that same night I shall almost certainly pass through the land of Egypt and I'll have a good old crack at smiting each firstborn male, man and beast, and ten to one I'll bring judgement on all the gods of Egypt, not that there are any, I don't reckon anyway. I am the LORD."
.
 
Your example in the second paragraph doesn't seem relevant. The clear example would be asking the subject for example:
It is relevant because to think about what your God wills is not the same as thinking about what some other bloke's opinion on the matter might be, in the same way as to think about the right explanation for a physical event isn't the same thing as thinking about someone else thinking about the event. In both cases what you do is to apply your knowledge (whether it's about God's humble opinions, or the physical laws) onto a situation.

If the subject gives the same response for all three, but the brain states are only the same for a and c but not b, then that would strongly suggest people map their own views onto god. I don't know if this research shows this conclusively, but to me it does seem to suggest it.
It suggests that they think that their opinion is the one God holds, or wants them to hold. If they're good christians they have to think so, I would've thought.

How can a god's view on, say, vegetarianism be anything other than an opinion?
Opinions are subjective, even fallible. Two words not commonly used to describe the laws of gods.
 
I just find it really strange that anyone should feel so outraged about a stupid cartoon that they feel the need to take to the streets and protest. I can't even begin to relate to that sort of mind-set. It just comes across as incredibly insecure and uptight. Which is odd, because I always thought that one of the very few benefits of being a committed theist (of any religion) is an emphasis on forgiveness, on being comfortable in one's own skin and an ability to look beyond worldly problems and see the bigger picture.

It's just ink on paper. I'm sure whichever spritual being is portayed in an offensive manner has more important things to worry about going on in the world today than a crap caricature in a local paper. So why do his followers get so irate?

If any newspaper publishes content that offends there is an option not to buy that newspaper. If someone is confident in their faith of choice, surely the correct emotion to feel would be to pity the people so blinded by hate and intolerance that they feel the need to gratuitously provoke? Shouldn't the protestors carry on with their normal lives? At best, maybe take a moment to pray for the journalists involve but why take to the streets in anger?

I will always be baffled by the extreme sensitivity of people with faith and the fact religion seems to constantly be drawn into situations of conflict, bitterness and anger. It's yet another reason I feel I've made the right decision in bringing my child up to form his own opinions in life.

Many people (mostly women) dont understand why men get so caught up in a game called football, using vulgar language towards a group of men who happen to play in one colour and then resort to violence as a way of expressing their allegiance. Many Manchester United fans get inflamed when ex players of ours who died in Munich are ridiculed. Its enough to get you banned from this forum. What's the big fecking deal? Its just a ball and 22 men chasing it after all. The answer is obvious, its because they care about it.

When something you care about gets abused, especially because it done so purely to provocate, people, get angry. And thats exactly what they are: provocations designed to inflame. I happen to be one of those who is outraged about these sorts of provocations because I care deeply and revere the man that is being slandered. But then according to you, that makes me 'insecure, uptight ... and bitter'.

Its quite simple, Muslims are very fond of their prophet. We consider him to be possibly the greatest human being ever to have lived and his life example is one we cherish. Many, including myself may not follow all his examples and principles, but it is unacceptable for him to be gratuitously mocked and ridiculed. That view has remained constant for the past 1600 years and will not change so I have no idea why it surprises you.

Why cant people just accept that? No Muslim I know would ever speak in such a manner about any other prophet of any other religion, because each of those (like Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus (PBU them all) are recognised by Islam as messengers of God who deserve our reverence and respect.

Your answer disappoints me Pogue as usually you are usually always on the money with your opinions which is why I always look forward to reading your opinions on most subjects. I know if this was about football fans mocking the Munich dead, you would be up in arms.

Your opinion comes across as lacking in empathy and understanding. Perhaps, family aside, there is nothing in your life that you care about enough to help you understand these dynamics. Rather than sit in your ivory tower making judgements about something you disagree with, why not just try and understand why people get so offended by these sorts of things.

Of course you dont have to agree with the principles, that is your right, but to say that those offended are in the wrong is the most preposterous thing I have ever read you say ... you normally don't write preposterous things, (thats my domain!!) which is why you're still the best poster on this site by a mile in my book :)
 
Here we go. One of the main people behind the protests against Dagbladet has said in another newspaper that the penalty for being gay should be the death penalty, adding that every Muslim are obligated to believe that through their religion. He also claimed that democracy has no place in Islam, because that means man-made laws, and the only option is Sharia law, calling muslims who support democracy hypocrites.
 
Here we go. One of the main people behind the protests against Dagbladet has said in another newspaper that the penalty for being gay should be the death penalty, adding that every Muslim are obligated to believe that through their religion. He also claimed that democracy has no place in Islam, because that means man-made laws, and the only option is Sharia law, calling muslims who support democracy hypocrites.

Strangely enough, the Sharia is also a 'man-made law'.
 
For many religious people, the popular question "What would Jesus do?" is essentially the same as "What would I do?"

I'd say it's quite the contrary is the case- many times I personally think I'd do this and that and only when I look at what 'Jesus would do' I figure that what I'd do couldn't be more different.
 
Here we go. One of the main people behind the protests against Dagbladet has said in another newspaper that the penalty for being gay should be the death penalty, adding that every Muslim are obligated to believe that through their religion. He also claimed that democracy has no place in Islam, because that means man-made laws, and the only option is Sharia law, calling muslims who support democracy hypocrites.

The key word here is 'one' person.

Why does it bother you so much what 'one' person has to say on the matter as opposed to many many millions who live in the west and who do not engage or support such views.

Again, media sensationalism to drive a pre conceived agenda.
 
And the Lord said, "On that same night I shall almost certainly pass through the land of Egypt and I'll have a good old crack at smiting each firstborn male, man and beast, and ten to one I'll bring judgement on all the gods of Egypt, not that there are any, I don't reckon anyway. I am the LORD."
.

The power of religion's so strong. Having taken the mickey out of God/the Torah last night, and having to drive for about 6-8 hours today, I dreamt all night about having a horrific car crash as divine punishment, and woke up in a cold sweat, so that now I'm actually nervous about getting in the car, which probably makes it more likely I'll crash...

And I stopped believing in this stuff about twenty years ago.

Plus, I didn't even get a little green laughing smilie for my pains... what a shit deal
 
It is relevant because to think about what your God wills is not the same as thinking about what some other bloke's opinion on the matter might be, in the same way as to think about the right explanation for a physical event isn't the same thing as thinking about someone else thinking about the event. In both cases what you do is to apply your knowledge (whether it's about God's humble opinions, or the physical laws) onto a situation.

I understand what you mean now, interesting idea. I do not know but I suspect if we did the fMRI's, things such as physical laws would use significantly different brain activity to thinking about god's opinions. In fact I'm almost certain I've read there are specific regions of the brain associated with interpreting different kinds of physical motions and interactions.

I'm not sure moral decisions are at all analogous to understanding the physical world at the level of the brain.

It suggests that they think that their opinion is the one God holds, or wants them to hold. If they're good christians they have to think so, I would've thought.

If that were the case the brain activity for b should also be the same; the opinions are identical in all three cases.

Opinions are subjective, even fallible. Two words not commonly used to describe the laws of gods.

Surely much of morality is not absolute in the sense of being right or wrong? If we imagine there is a god with perfect and complete information, they would of course be in a better position to judge morality than us with our limited information, but I think it is possible to argue either way on aspects of morality from the same information. Essentially what I'm saying is that if there were two gods, both with perfect information, it would be possible for them to come to different conclusions about some aspects of morality.
 
I understand what you mean now, interesting idea. I do not know but I suspect if we did the fMRI's, things such as physical laws would use significantly different brain activity to thinking about god's opinions. In fact I'm almost certain I've read there are specific regions of the brain associated with interpreting different kinds of physical motions and interactions.

There are, but they deal with 'natural' physical intuition - (not just innate, but developed through practice and observation in childhood). If you learn Newton's laws or Einstein's theories they're not going to be handled by those modules... At least not primarily, I assume they do light up when you try to imagine the cannon-balls and speeding trains and shit.
 
Yeah, the wording in the article is peculiar too. They go on about "God's beliefs". God doesn't believe, s/he knows, or wills. Or so I've been told.

You're right. It's a bit like saying Jesus is God though Jesus is referred to as the Christ, The 'Anointed One' yet if he is God then how does he 'Anoint' himself? Surely, only God can 'anoint'?
 
You got all that from one quote?

No wonder Christians have fought amongst themselves for two thousand years.

You can get more.

It's responses like this which make any debate of this nature utterly, utterly pointless.

Believers will twist literally anything to suit their own ends and then accuse everyone else of "missing the point".

Non-believers do the same, I suppose.

It's just round and round and round and round...

Welcome to assumption-land. I do not go to church. I have, however, read some of the Bible. As well as some of the Qur'an, some Hindi texts, Buddhist writings, Confucius, Mencius and the other Chinese philosopher whose name starts with an 'N', etc etc.

All of that post, again, was to illustrate the way religious writings are layered. If there is a God, and if these texts are His/Hers/Its word, then they paint a picture of a being that resides beyond our conceptions of good/evil, cause/effect. If you can't see how such writings can interact with and inform (and be formed by) the primal mechanisms in our brains to evoke emotional and/or intellectual responses - if you can't hold in your head a morsel of bread in a monk's stomach being converted to energy to illuminate a manuscript whose molecules will in turn resonate in space and time until another pair of human eyes reads the light coming off the monk's by-now ancient handwriting to fire electro-chemical signals into the pattern-recognition centers of the hunk of meat inside his skull - if you can't see how all of this is interconnected and get a feel for what religious writings are trying to describe, then that's too bad. But I think every rational being can glean something or other from these texts, if examined long enough. Most religious arguments are started by people who aren't busy trying to peel back the layers anyway. Idle hands and all that.

The texts are marvelously sculpted to show as many facets of "the universal being" as humanly possible. Even if you don't "believe" in them, they're still fascinating works that stand as a testament to the human mind's willingness to reach for things beyond its own grasp.

Exercise: What makes up the morsel of bread? Does it perhaps hold a molecule or two containing atoms that once resided in a mountain streambed? Anything else? What mechanisms are activated in your mind while you imagine such things? How about physiologically?

EDIT: That exercise part makes me sound like a windbag professor. Didn't mean that. It's just an example of the sort of thing that happens to me when I read religious writings.
 
The key word here is 'one' person.

Why does it bother you so much what 'one' person has to say on the matter as opposed to many many millions who live in the west and who do not engage or support such views.

Again, media sensationalism to drive a pre conceived agenda.

Not in this case, no. This is the same person I mentioned earlier in the thread who made the very ambigous references to 9/11 during a speech after the protest in Oslo. His name is Mohyeldeen Mohammad and he is a Norwegian citizen studying in Saudi-Arabia. How you can view this as media sensationalism is incomprehensible to me. He held a speech in the middle of Oslo, he is then given the opportunity to speak to a Norwegian newspaper about the protests that he took part in. Should the media just refuse to print what he said?

Oh, and if you are afraid that he is the only Muslim which views are being printed in the papers in a bid to "senasationalise" then don't worry. Several prominent Muslims in Norway have had their say as a retort.

- Important to work against.
Columnist and former leader of The Muslim Student Society in Norway, Mohammad Usman Rana, thinks that Mohyldeen Mohammads message is "Unislamic", and that Muslims in Norway should work against attitudes like that gaining ground in Norway


- I think that Muslims in the west and Europe, Should work for that traditional Islam in a western shape remains focused on the practice of Islam and zero tolernace for extremism. I think that Mohyldeen Mohammads message is unislamic and agitative. It does not represent the message of Islam, which is peace and harmony, says Rana and continues:

- It is fully possible to be a practising Muslim and a member of a secular democracy. Yes, Muslims should fight for their right to practice Islam both in private and in the public but at the same time prevent that attitides such as that of Mohammad gets to settle here. We need to be faithful to our own country. Warnings and threats are completely unacceptable, says Rana.


The irony is that it is the democratic society which he hates who gives him the right to spout this hateful rubbish. I actually feel sorry for the thousands of Muslims peacefully showing their discontent with the article in Dagbladet now being associated with this man. I now fell even more strongly about his words in the speech he made in Oslo: "This is not a threat, it's a warning.." and I am glad to see members of the Muslim society in Norway speak out against such attitudes.

Edit: I've made the translation from Dagbladet myself, and apologise for any spelling errors. The full article can be found here (in Norwegian): - Det er kvalmende - nyheter - Dagbladet.no
 
The report disappointed me. I went to read it because I am sympethetic to the view that we are inclined to interpret facts in light of our own pre-conceived opinions, whether the facts are scientific ones or the words written in the Bible. However, I don't see the research as suggesting that "they are projecting their own personal biases on to the text, rather than honestly assessing what it actually say." It only suggests that people who believe in God, believe that the moral thing to do is what God says is the moral thing to do. And as far as I know God hasn't said much about things such as affirmative action, so the believer has to try and apply the Christian virtues to the given case in a way that give the appropriate considerations of the facts and context. And so on. Right?

This is fairly preliminary work, so there is always room for different interpretations, but there have been quite a few studies done like this that come to a similar conclusion, only using different techniques.

The researchers did two things in an attempt to rule out the conclusion that you have come to. Firstly, they got people to change their minds about an issue that they had previously given answers to, by exposing them to either strong or poor arguments, for or against that position. And secondly, they imaged the brain to find out what part the subjects were using to think about each of the questions.

The part of the brain that is used to think about your own opinion is very different to that of other peoples opinion. In fact, that part of the brain is well established as being associated with referential thinking — or in other words, when you are thinking of the self, rather than of other people or entities. So, we use an entirely different part of the brain to think about what we think, as opposed to what other people might think.

And as they found out, people tend to use the same part of the brain (associated with referential thinking) to think both about themselves and God. Now, you may rightly say that it doesn't "prove" that they are in fact thinking about themselves when they are thinking about what God believes, and you'd be right. But the case is strengthened by the fact that God's opinion also changed, in line with their own, when their own position changed, as well. And this wasn't over time, so that they had the chance to look at the text or to think about what God might be asking of them. So, it's not as if they went away and thought about the issue for a few months and decided that, actually, God appears to want this from me, so I had better change my view accordingly. And they didn't use religious arguments to persuade people to change their mind, either.

So, that is quite strong evidence, because even if they had been persuaded by arguments against their former position, that doesn't explain why God's opinion also changed. Lot's of religious believers are happy to say that they believe one thing, but that they are not sure whether it really lines up with God's thinking, also.

However, if you can get someone to change their own mind with one strong argument against their prior position, and that also alters what they believe God's position to be, that is fairly strong evidence that, for at least some issues, they are projecting their own opinion on to God, rather than honestly assessing what it is that God's believes.
 
But the case is strengthened by the fact that God's opinion also changed, in line with their own, when their own position changed, as well. And this wasn't over time, so that they had the chance to look at the text or to think about what God might be asking of them. So, it's not as if they went away and thought about the issue for a few months and decided that, actually, God appears to want this from me, so I had better change my view accordingly. And they didn't use religious arguments to persuade people to change their mind, either.
As I have explained earlier this does not strengthen the case. Unfortunately the article mentions nothing about the sort of argument pros and con the test persons are made familiar with. Do they try to show the relevance of some particular virtues, or do they simply spell out the empirical research on the consequences of affirmative action? Whichever it is, they are probably trying to apply their god's teachings to the different contexts, and therefor they change their and God's positions according to what they learn. In short, this doesn't suggest much. And I am an atheist and all of that.
 
It's a mark of respect when mentioning the Prophets.

PBUH is short for "Peace Be Upon Him".

SAW is in Arabic for (Sallalahu Alahi Wasallam) meaning, may peace and blessings of Allah (God) be upon him.

It's similar to saying RIP (rest in peace)

Sultan, I have only ever heard this being used when it comes to Muhammed and not to the other prophets. And is it considered an 'offense' or sin to not mention it out of respect?
 
As I have explained earlier this does not strengthen the case. Unfortunately the article mentions nothing about the sort of argument pros and con the test persons are made familiar with. Do they try to show the relevance of some particular virtues, or do they simply spell out the empirical research on the consequences of affirmative action? Whichever it is, they are probably trying to apply their god's teachings to the different contexts, and therefor they change their and God's positions according to what they learn. In short, this doesn't suggest much. And I am an atheist and all of that.

I honestly don't understand your objection. And it looks as though you missed the supporting information section (here), which explains the various arguments that were used and provides a lot more information about the various results.

This research doesn't claim to show that religious believers are not influenced by the teachings of their religion, only that prior beliefs and prejudices, which are externally influential (i.e. separate from religion), are influential in shaping a persons beliefs about their religion.

That should not be terribly surprising, given that Christianity, for example, attracts believers with political views ranging from the very conservative to the very liberal, the vehemently homophobic to pro-gay rights, anti-abortion to pro-choice, etc. This much was obvious, already, of course, but this research points to a reason why that is the case.

And that is exactly what is meant by the claim that people project their own views on to God/religion. To argue against such a conclusion you would have to explain why there is such a broad range of views associated with the same text/religious tradition.
 
Sultan, I have only ever heard this being used when it comes to Muhammed and not to the other prophets. And is it considered an 'offense' or sin to not mention it out of respect?

Well that's wrong then, check my previous posts. We say it after all. We really do , inside the Mosque if any prophet is mentioned , we say "alaih alsalat wa alsalam; literally= peace and prayers be upon him"

Yes, It is considered an offense or a lack of respect if it's not mentioned, but as any other action only if done intentionally. If someone did out of forgetting or by mistake, it's forgiven God's willing.
 
The power of religion's so strong. Having taken the mickey out of God/the Torah last night, and having to drive for about 6-8 hours today, I dreamt all night about having a horrific car crash as divine punishment, and woke up in a cold sweat, so that now I'm actually nervous about getting in the car, which probably makes it more likely I'll crash...

And I stopped believing in this stuff about twenty years ago.

Plus, I didn't even get a little green laughing smilie for my pains... what a shit deal

I survived His wrath, at least so far, just in case anyone cared...

Oh, no one did. Righto, carry on.
 
You seem to travel a lot, like a...

Did you miss the game last night?
 
You seem to travel a lot, like a...

Did you miss the game last night?

:lol:

No, I watched it in a pub on the south coast, an empty pub, apart from a Downe's syndrome Liverpool fan, who sat next to me and repeatedly shouted, "It's Beckham! That's Beckham!" Then he found out Beckham was playing for Milan, which made him very angry, and he spent most of the first half shouting, "Beckham's English! He's ENGLISH!" at me. Then I wouldn't play pool with him at half-time, due to having to be shouted at on the telephone, which made him even angrier, and then he worked out I supported United, after which he spent the whole second half shouting "I feckING HATE Man Utd!" in my ear.

Maybe this was all some sort of divine punishment for my posts? If so, it raises an important theological question rarely addressed in these debates, namely, "Is God on the Caf?"
 
Another deliberate provocation from Dagbladet, who, as we know, are only out to provoke. What did they do this time? They participated a public meeting with several muslims to clear the air, publishing their hurt responses. Obviously this was only done to portray them as weak. And to sell papers.

- Jeg konverterte ikke for å bli hetset - VG Nett om Muhammed-tegningene
 
Well that's wrong then, check my previous posts. We say it after all. We really do , inside the Mosque if any prophet is mentioned , we say "alaih alsalat wa alsalam; literally= peace and prayers be upon him"

Yes, It is considered an offense or a lack of respect if it's not mentioned, but as any other action only if done intentionally. If someone did out of forgetting or by mistake, it's forgiven God's willing.

Ok I see. I must say that I understand some people thinking that it is a bit annoying. The other night there was a documentary on the ISLAM channel on Muhammad's Life and I wanted to watch it our of curiosity, wanted to learn more about your religion and its roots. However, I didn't last 20 minutes into the hour long documentary because every single time Muhammad's name was mentioned they used PBUH and it gets pretty annoying when you trying to learn about the religion. Would it not have been possible for them to just do the documentary without using the PBUH? How would that go down with the Islam community?