Everton v Manchester United

[Shimo]

Piennar completed his suspension for the Chelsea game (got red against the dippers for 2nd yellow against starfish).

Lineup

VDS
Rafael, Vidic (I hope), Evans, Evra
Valencia, Carrick, Fletcher, Park
Berbatov, Rooney

If not Vidic then Brown in the middle.

I have a sneaky suspicion SAF will throw Neville on for this though for Rafael.

Just can't see us needing 3 in the middle against them. The biggest threat will come from set pieces.

 

[Berlinknives]

Rafael should retain his spot at right back.

Why?

 

[Shimo]

Why?

If askabob91 holds the same opinion as me then it would be because Rafael has been playing well, he seems to be improving game by game defensively and IMO against a player like Ronaldinho who can make a fool of anyone when he is feeling in the mood like he did yesterday, Rafael did very well.

Also, if you listen to SAF's interview he mentioned the plan was to have Nani and Rafael attack down that right side, that was the game plan, so if the complaint is about his poor positioning, then it's a bit unfounded for last night's game as it was asked of him.

Yes, he screwed up on the 2nd goal - should have booted it down the field but, we also seem to love it when he can make his way out of defense with the ball and gets us on the attack. I have confidence though if he is faced with a similar situation again, he'll just get rid of the ball and get back in position.

Don't think he has done anything to warrant being dropped. About the only thing I can think of is if he is tired.

 

[Northstand]

Hugely crucial game, this. Win it (and it's a big ask) and I'll be very confident for the league.

 

[Berlinknives]

If askabob91 holds the same opinion as me then it would be because Rafael has been playing well, he seems to be improving game by game defensively and IMO against a player like Ronaldinho who can make a fool of anyone when he is feeling in the mood like he did yesterday, Rafael did very well.

So long as you're not being objective, I ask again ... Why?

Not only did Ronaldiniho make a fool of him, but Rafael in failining to mark him for the freekick as a rightback should with a left winger and by failing to track back after his own sloppy pass for the second, as well as nearly giving away another penalty does not in my mind count as being made a fool of by Ronaldiniho. His concentration slipped and that's just poor work rate in the end. Conceeding two goals is not well, he shouldn't get a pat on the back for it.

A meritocracy still exists at Old Trafford, just ask Foster and Anderson.

 

[Carl]

Not only did Ronaldiniho make a fool of him

He certainly did not make a fool of him. Rafael was up against one of the best players in the World and he more than held his ground. There were times early on when he went passed him but for the majority of the games Rafael played him well, as well as supporting Nani/Valencia.

but Rafael in failining to mark him for the freekick as a rightback should with a left winger

That's not true. At set pieces you don't necessarily mark who you are directly playing against in open play. FYI it was Carrick that was marking Ronaldinho. Rafael was marking someone else, i forget who it was but he was stood around the penalty spot.

 

[Carl]

VDS
Rafael Evans Brown Evra
Valencia Carrick Fletcher Park
Berbatov Rooney​

 

[Berlinknives]

He certainly did not make a fool of him. Rafael was up against one of the best players in the World and he more than held his ground. There were times early on when he went passed him but for the majority of the games Rafael played him well, as well as supporting Nani/Valencia.

That's not true. At set pieces you don't necessarily mark who you are directly playing against in open play. FYI it was Carrick that was marking Ronaldinho. Rafael was marking someone else, i forget who it was but he was stood around the penalty spot.

For the majority of the game he wasn't needed, he was a passenger, every time he was needed to do something he did it poorly if at all or with loads of assistance from other players. You cannot say that because he did nothing when nothing was required of him he held his own. When his concentration was required it was switched off, and instead of clearing the ball he lost it easily. I'm surprised you think Ronaldiniho is a good player because if you think Rafael held his own your judgement's compromised.

Offered nothing of note going forward (as expected) and even less going back and FYI Rafael was marking a zone for the freekick, he didn't even put pressure on anyone. Had Brown played instead I'm sure the Milan tally would've been down by at least one, glad Rafael was taken off before it became 3-3.

 

[Sunny Jim]

4-3-3 again

VDS

Rafael
Wes
Evans
Evra

Carrick
Fletcher
Anderson

Valencia
Park
Rooney

subs:

Obertan, Owen, Berbatov, Gibson, Fabio, Vidic/G Nev, Kusz

this

 

[Shimo]

So long as you're not being objective, I ask again ... Why?

You answered your own question.

A meritocracy still exists at Old Trafford, just ask Foster and Anderson.

So you don't believe he merits keep his spot, it's plainly obvious that others do. So why bother asking why if you are going to dismiss their opinion.

 

[Carl]

For the majority of the game he wasn't needed, he was a passenger, every time he was needed to do something he did it poorly if at all or with loads of assistance from other players. You cannot say that because he did nothing when nothing was required of him he held his own. When his concentration was required it was switched off, and instead of clearing the ball he lost it easily. I'm surprised you think Ronaldiniho is a good player because if you think Rafael held his own your judgement's compromised.

Offered nothing of note going forward (as expected) and even less going back and FYI Rafael was marking a zone for the freekick, he didn't even put pressure on anyone. Had Brown played instead I'm sure the Milan tally would've been down by at least one, glad Rafael was taken off before it became 3-3.

You don't think Ronaldinho is a good player? Ok then.

And if Rafael was marking a zone it wasnt either zone that the ball dropped in. So what exactly did you expect him to do?

I also note you're obvious disdain towards Rafael. He was not marking Ronaldinho for the goal yet he takes the blame. Not Evra for his woeful clearance, not Evans for his poor communication and not Carrick who was marking him. Interesting.

Rafael offered plenty going forwards, the overlap alone created time and space for the winger. It was not Rafael's fault Nani was having a mare.

I'm not saying Rafael was brilliant because he was not. But he certainly was nowhere near as bad as you make out and i find it odd you single him out when there were a number of United players much worse than him.

Maybe you should clear your mind of pre-meditated prejudice before judging a game of football.

 

[Berlinknives]

You don't think Ronaldinho is a good player? Ok then.

And if Rafael was marking a zone it wasnt either zone that the ball dropped in. So what exactly did you expect him to do?

I also note you're obvious disdain towards Rafael. He was not marking Ronaldinho for the goal yet he takes the blame. Not Evra for his woeful clearance, not Evans for his poor communication and not Carrick who was marking him. Interesting.

Rafael offered plenty going forwards, the overlap alone created time and space for the winger. It was not Rafael's fault Nani was having a mare.

I'm not saying Rafael was brilliant because he was not. But he certainly was nowhere near as bad as you make out and i find it odd you single him out when there were a number of United players much worse than him.

Maybe you should clear your mind of pre-meditated prejudice before judging a game of football.

Ronaldiniho controled the game against Rafael like he wasn't there. Maybe being a passive observor to the Ronaldiniho show is a good exuse to do nothing for 90 minutes. Shouldn't have been marking a zone, should've been doing something.

The fact that Ronaldiniho was unable to impose himself even more upon the game had 0% to do with Rafael who may as well not have shown up for all he did or didn't do, but to do with United's midfield workrate and the lack of workrate in Milan's midfield. No wonder Nani had a poor game having to sheild Rafael from the threat of Ronaldiniho. Rafael didn't hold his own any more than Nesta held his own against Rooney, he was suspect for both goals and many other times during the game and was lucky so many of Ronaldiniho's teammates didn't show up. Rafael was extremely lazy when the game was going United's way and was like a rabbit in the headlights when the game swung back in Milan's favour. You cannot afford to be shellshocked at the highest level. Your prejudice is that you believe that just because a player can run means he's the complete footballer, winning the ball or doing anything with the ball or being anywhere near to get the ball it's all optional when you're Rafael. Ok Then.

 

[Fletcher's Jilted Lover]

For the majority of the game he wasn't needed, he was a passenger, every time he was needed to do something he did it poorly if at all or with loads of assistance from other players. You cannot say that because he did nothing when nothing was required of him he held his own. When his concentration was required it was switched off, and instead of clearing the ball he lost it easily. I'm surprised you think Ronaldiniho is a good player because if you think Rafael held his own your judgement's compromised.

Offered nothing of note going forward (as expected) and even less going back and FYI Rafael was marking a zone for the freekick, he didn't even put pressure on anyone. Had Brown played instead I'm sure the Milan tally would've been down by at least one, glad Rafael was taken off before it became 3-3.

Part in bold. Very interesting, as O'Shea consistently offered nothing to very little going forward and you're a huge supporter of him, but you feel the need to critise Rafael for going forward? In a game where it could be excused if Rafael didn't go forward alot. Very strange.

Also, you tried critising Rafael for Ronaldinho scoring from the free kick, when he didn't even mark him, you've realised that critism didn't quite work out so you're critising him now for 'marking a zone' now.

An awful argument you're putting up here berlin, and the final sentence of your post is just the icing on the cake. You're critising Rafael for the sake of it, sort it out.

 

[Berlinknives]

Part in bold. Very interesting, as O'Shea consistently offered nothing to very little going forward and you're a huge supporter of him, but you feel the need to critise Rafael for going forward? In a game where it could be excused if Rafael didn't go forward alot. Very strange.

Also, you tried critising Rafael for Ronaldinho scoring from the free kick, when he didn't even mark him, you've realised that critism didn't quite work out so you're critising him now for 'marking a zone' now.

An awful argument you're putting up here berlin, and the final sentence of your post is just the icing on the cake. You're critising Rafael for the sake of it, sort it out.

The whole arguement for Rafael was before the game was that he would be able to impose himself when Ronaldiniho didn't track back or so people thought. That didn't manifest, this advantage that Rafael holds over Brown and Neville couldn't once be imposed in this game because he was always second when Ronaldiniho got the ball. In fact one critical 50/50 between Rafael and Ronaldiniho in the game resuted in Ronaldiniho winning the ball from Rafael and setting up Seedorf. Just because mistakes are a learning experience doesn't mean mistakes should be praised.

The fact is, I can admit when O'Shea has defended poorly against Modric, against Valencia last season and in both games he kept a cleansheet . People are happy to critise Evra for the foul, or Evans for not communicating but Rafael seems sacred in some eyes to be completely immune to criticism. Rafael had a poor game when called upon. People aren't objective to admit that, people are not only saying he didn't play perfect but they praise him essentially for holding his own which apparently means conceeding two goals.
Even Rafael last night going off in disappointment, probably doesn't believe this hype that he held his own, he didn't look pleased with his performance.
It's patronising that's what it is.

 

[Carl]

Your prejudice is that you believe that just because a player can run means he's the complete footballer, winning the ball or doing anything with the ball or being anywhere near to get the ball it's all optional when you're Rafael. Ok Then.

Please show me where i said Rafael had a good game? Oh you can't find it? Thought not. That's just the thing, i don't let prejudice cloud my judgment (most of the time ) unlike you.

Oh and on the first goal, for all you know Rafael may have had instruction to mark the penalty spot zone. That goal was in no way his fault. Evans, Evra and Carrick (albeit very harsh on Carrick) were the 3 players at fault for that goal.

 

[Gambit]

Rafael for a teenage boy did more than good enough against one of the worlds best players. He made mistakes but his speed allowed him to get back in there and trouble 'Dinho. He made defensive mistakes, the correction of which will come with age. Personally i think we have a hell of a player on our hands.

 

[askabob]

Berlin, who else would you play at right back? It won't be Wes, as he is needed in central defense as Vidic seems to be out with injury. Surely it won't be Neville as any team that can counter attack properly will skin him. Rafael played decently against one of the best players in the modern era and it is inevitable that there will be one or two mistakes in his game. Not only that, but he has bee improving his game defensively, and without the big game atmosphere of the San Siro, he should be less prone to making mistakes. Also, as a proponent of unnecessary changes, I find it odd to switch a player out just for the sake of it. The more time you keep a backline together, the better they will play, and giving the same players more games will only help them play better. Of course, the argument is invalid if Rafael had a shocker, but considering he played alright, there is nothing to warrant that he shouldn't start against Everton.

 

[Crerand Legend]

Rafael for a teenage boy did more than good enough against one of the worlds best players. He made mistakes but his speed allowed him to get back in there and trouble 'Dinho. He made defensive mistakes, the correction of which will come with age. Personally i think we have a hell of a player on our hands.

What you are saying is on the nail, everyone has to learn from their mistakes. Rafael doing remarkably well for his tender years

 

[Gambit]

What you are saying is on the nail, everyone has to learn from their mistakes. Rafael doing remarkably well for his tender years

Everyone forgets that he was playing against a fellow Brazililan, a world cup winner who is idolised in his home country, more than likely by the Dasilva twins themselves. In the san siro, against AC milan in the champions league. Can you imagine the nerves that boy was going through. Did very well if you ask me.

 

[Berlinknives]

Please show me where i said Rafael had a good game? Oh you can't find it? Thought not. That's just the thing, i don't let prejudice cloud my judgment (most of the time ) unlike you.

He certainly did not make a fool of him. Rafael was up against one of the best players in the World and he more than held his ground. There were times early on when he went passed him [/B]supporting Nani/Valencia.

You say he didn't have a good game but your prejudice says he held his ground. On average Ronaldiniho was only going to be on the ball for a cumulative 5 minutes in the game and in every one of those five minutes Rafael had a nightmare, for most of the time Rafael was on the ball he was struggling making mistakes including the second goal. It wasn't just Ronaldiniho, I do recall Ambrosini getting past Rafael with ease too.

 

[Sunny Jim]

why would anyone want Bebratov in their team is beyond me. Everton are very industrial team, their players cover a lot of ground and you need people who can actually run and tackle in your team to break them down.

some people

 

[Berlinknives]

Berlin, who else would you play at right back? It won't be Wes, as he is needed in central defense as Vidic seems to be out with injury. Surely it won't be Neville as any team that can counter attack properly will skin him. Rafael played decently against one of the best players in the modern era and it is inevitable that there will be one or two mistakes in his game. Not only that, but he has been improving his game defensively, and without the big game atmosphere of the San Siro, he should be less prone to making mistakes. Also, as a proponent of unnecessary changes, I find it odd to switch a player out just for the sake of it. The more time you keep a backline together, the better they will play, and giving the same players more games will only help them play better. Of course, the argument is invalid if Rafael had a shocker, but considering he played alright, there is nothing to warrant that he shouldn't start against Everton.

Who else would I pick if not Wes Brown or Neville? hmm ... I'd pick Fabio then, he was decent enough there at the start of the season.

But seriously, Rafael's an established player now, he should be mentioned as being "consistent" rather than "improving", there's no established margin for error in football. He's played enough to know that you can't be complacent and you have to be alert at all times. Maybe it's just me but I feel he was shocking, maybe he'll learn from it but he shouldn't be excused because the situation's difficult, that's no excuse in the modern game.

And anyway applying the "logic" or rather "dogma" that more games means better players, justifies never dropping Foster and ignoring Kuszczak's greater workrate, it means never giving the likes of Nani and Park to get a chance. If someone has a bad game why shouldn't they face the pressure of their understudy. Players need to be being consitent at doing the job they're paid for. United used eight defenders and two goalies in their cleansheet run and all of them made decent claims.

 

[askabob]

He is 19 years old, it is ridiculous for someone to expect him to play "consistently." It is already marvelous that he is playing so well at such a young age, and bar a few defensive lapses, I think he's sound defensively.. he has pace, a great tackle, and his positioning is improving exponentially. He will not be "consistent" for a few more years until he matures and learns that defending is more important than attacking. With great defenders such as Rio and Neville coaching him, I'm sure that he will progress admirably. Also, I'd much rather he "improves" than be "consistent."

 

[Shimo]

You say he didn't have a good game but your prejudice says he held his ground. On average Ronaldiniho was only going to be on the ball for a cumulative 5 minutes in the game and in every one of those five minutes Rafael had a nightmare, for most of the time Rafael was on the ball he was struggling making mistakes including the second goal. It wasn't just Ronaldiniho, I do recall Ambrosini getting past Rafael with ease too.

So end of all this. You don't think he merits keeping his spot. Others, myself included, do think he did enough in that game (plus others recently) to keep his spot on Saturday.

You aren't going to change your opinion on him. You certainly aren't going to convince anyone that every time he was involved he was bad.

Am sure you might find one or two people that hold your extreme assessment of him.

 

[askabob]

Oh, and for the argument that Ronaldinho got past him with ease.. Ronaldinho got past Scholes and Fletcher (both double-teaming on him) as if they weren't even there. It was obvious that Ronaldinho was going to get past Rafael multiple times; the important thing was keeping that number of times down and covering him even if/when he got past.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Who else would I pick if not Wes Brown or Neville? hmm ... I'd pick Fabio then, he was decent enough there at the start of the season.

But seriously, Rafael's an established player now, he should be mentioned as being "consistent" rather than "improving", there's no established margin for error in football. He's played enough to know that you can't be complacent and you have to be alert at all times. Maybe it's just me but I feel he was shocking, maybe he'll learn from it but he shouldn't be excused because the situation's difficult, that's no excuse in the modern game.

And anyway applying the "logic" or rather "dogma" that more games means better players, justifies never dropping Foster and ignoring Kuszczak's greater workrate, it means never giving the likes of Nani and Park to get a chance. If someone has a bad game why shouldn't they face the pressure of their understudy. Players need to be being consitent at doing the job they're paid for. United used eight defenders and two goalies in their cleansheet run and all of them made decent claims.

Nonsense. All young players are inconsistent, whether or not they're "established"

I also disagree with your opinion on how he performed last night, for what it's worth.

 

[Berlinknives]

He is 19 years old, it is ridiculous for someone to expect him to play "consistently." It is already marvelous that he is playing so well at such a young age, and bar a few defensive lapses, I think he's sound defensively.. he has pace, a great tackle, and his positioning is improving exponentially. He will not be "consistent" for a few more years until he matures and learns that defending is more important than attacking. With great defenders such as Rio and Neville coaching him, I'm sure that he will progress admirably. Also, I'd much rather he "improves" than be "consistent."

The most notable recent usage of the word improvement in football I can recall is Gianfranco Zola, he lost most of his early games but when they began winning a few people talked about how he improved the side when he caused the damage it in the first place.

Call me cynical but improvement in an unobjective qualitative context, is a gullible man's word to shift the attention away from failings. Improvement never means getting better every game it usually means improving every second game having a setback every third.

By definition askabob91, inconsistent improvement, isn't really improvement, it's just inconsistency that leaves room for improvement. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Berlinknives]

Oh, and for the argument that Ronaldinho got past him with ease.. Ronaldinho got past Scholes and Fletcher (both double-teaming on him) as if they weren't even there. It was obvious that Ronaldinho was going to get past Rafael multiple times; the important thing was keeping that number of times down and covering him even if/when he got past.

The difference between Fletch/Scholes and Rafael is that Rafael didn't impose himself in the game at any other point, and most significant contribution to the result was a poor pass for the Ronaldinho goal. It's almost like he's basquing in Ronaldinho's reflected glory almost, some saying he held his own, others so deluded to believe he got the better of Ronaldiniho overall. Other than perhaps the result of his team itself, I don't see it.

It wasn't Rafael keeping Ronaldinho's pocession down, it was the fact that no one in the Milan midfield was capable of winning the ball back from United when they didn't have the ball. You can't praise Rafael for that any more than you can praise him for scoring Rooney's goals. I'd judge him based on the moments he was needed not how often he was needed.

 

[JayWalker]

Actually I was pleasantly surprised by Rafael last night. He looked less intimidated by the atmosphere or the occassion than some of our other players which only bodes well for the future.

 

[talking robot]

rio and nani suspended

oops...i was drunk after milan game when i made this

 

[RDCR07]

VDS

Rafael/Neville-----Evans-----Brown-----Evra

Valencia-----Fletch-----Carrick-----Park

Rooney-----Berbatov​

Neville has not played in days now and I dont know if he should start or we should give Rafael another run to get his confidence back. I think we ll play a strong team against Everton because it is a harder game and we might rest a few players on Tuesday when we play West Ham at home to keep them rested for the CC final next Sunday.

Or we might play Scholes and rest him for the game on Tuesday because he rarely plays two games in a row. I guessing Fergie is going to go 4-5-1 against Villa in the final. Gibson or Ando will definitely play against West Ham.

 

[Red4Ever]

I'd have this down as being more important than the Carling Cup and even Milan at home a win here will be huge if we can do it

 

[RonaldoVII]

feck, forgot Rio was still banned. I think Vidic might be back though.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Actually I was pleasantly surprised by Rafael last night. He looked less intimidated by the atmosphere or the occassion than some of our other players which only bodes well for the future.

agreed, and exepct for the opening minutes he manged to switch Ronadliho off.

 

[Trigg]

Actually I was pleasantly surprised by Rafael last night. He looked less intimidated by the atmosphere or the occassion than some of our other players which only bodes well for the future.

Thats been the best thing about him. Whenever he's played he's never really been intimidated by the occasion or the opposition. Thats a good thing and SAF as also commented in the past too.

He's going to make mistakes, and unfortunately, sometimes it will lead to goals conceded but there is only one way he'll learn and thats from making those mistakes.

He's getting better and better with every game for me. More aware defensive, his position is improving and he's not bombing on forward too early. As long as he keep progressing I have no problem with him playing whenever he's fit. He's been a problem area at right back and given the chance I think Rafael can cement that starting berth.

 

[soapythecat]

feck all this shit about Ronaldinho giving Rafeal the run around - the bloke is a box of tricks, he could run round any bloody defender on his day. Rafeal is our best RB at present given current form.

VDS
Rafeal - Vidic - Evan - Evra
Nani - Carrick - Fletcher - Park
Rooney - Berbatov

I hope we play a 442

We can win this 0-2 if we boss the midfield in the lack of Fellaini

 

[RDCR07]

feck all this shit about Ronaldinho giving Rafeal the run around - the bloke is a box of tricks, he could run round any bloody defender on his day. Rafeal is our best RB at present given current form.

VDS
Rafeal - Vidic - Evan - Evra
Nani - Carrick - Fletcher - Park
Rooney - Berbatov

I hope we play a 442

We can win this 0-2 if we boss the midfield in the lack of Fellaini

You do know that Nani is suspended right?

 

[RedSky]

Shit, piss, feckery.

I'm going to have to miss this game and believe me, thats a bad omen

 

[MUFCgal]

feck, forgot Rio was still banned. I think Vidic might be back though.

Yeah, forgot Rio was still banned too. If Vidic is fit, he starts.

 

[Fletcher's Jilted Lover]

The whole arguement for Rafael was before the game was that he would be able to impose himself when Ronaldiniho didn't track back or so people thought. That didn't manifest, this advantage that Rafael holds over Brown and Neville couldn't once be imposed in this game because he was always second when Ronaldiniho got the ball.

There is no argument, Rafael provides the best support going forward from right back, and he did it a few times on Tuesday, but forgive him for not going forward as much as you would like as he was up against one of the greatest players to ever play the game.

The fact is, I can admit when O'Shea has defended poorly against Modric, against Valencia last season and in both games he kept a cleansheet . People are happy to critise Evra for the foul, or Evans for not communicating but Rafael seems sacred in some eyes to be completely immune to criticism. Rafael had a poor game when called upon. People aren't objective to admit that, people are not only saying he didn't play perfect but they praise him essentially for holding his own which apparently means conceeding two goals.
Even Rafael last night going off in disappointment, probably doesn't believe this hype that he held his own, he didn't look pleased with his performance.
It's patronising that's what it is.

Rafael isn't immune from critism, why you think that I've no idea.

You're just annoyed that he isn't a tubby six foot irishman