A people's Revolution

Yesterday's protests were neither organized by the Muslim Brotherhood nor did they participate.

As regards different attitudes towards Israel, how about Israel doing something right for a change.. Persistence of the status quo is impossible
 
Avatar said:
Yesterday's protests were neither organized by the Muslim Brotherhood nor did they participate.

As regards different attitudes towards Israel, how about Israel doing something right for a change.. Persistence of the status quo is impossible
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No it's not.

Until profound, fundamental change occurs in the Arab world - hopefully what we are seeing now - Israel must wait until it has true democratic partners to deal with.

Democracies, rarely, if ever, go to war with each other.
 
Fearless said:
No it's not.

Until profound, fundamental change occurs in the Arab world - hopefully what we are seeing now - Israel must wait until it has true democratic partners to deal with.

Democracies, rarely, if ever, go to war with each other.
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Yes but the majority of Arab populations are unhappy with the Status Quo in Israel and would want to see a Palestinian state. So if Democracies were to blossom from these uprisings then expect them to reflect their electorate. But hopefully this can diplomatically solved with no external parties getting involved.
 
Facebook just now got blocked too... feckers!!!!!!
 
Imagining the Israeli-Palestinian Borders

West Bank Map

Plus more elaborate and extremely detailed maps regarding land swaps. The Geneva and Triangle land swaps are interesting as the Palestinian territory seems to expand but I cant see what Israel gets in return.

Publications
 
Mihaj, that Washington Institute institute think-tank was established by AIPAC. It's one of the most blatant tools of Israeli propaganda, so I'd take which ever 'information' they relay with a pinch of salt.
 
RedKaos said:
Yes but the majority of Arab populations are unhappy with the Status Quo in Israel and would want to see a Palestinian state. So if Democracies were to blossom from these uprisings then expect them to reflect their electorate. But hopefully this can diplomatically solved with no external parties getting involved.
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I actually think the Arab population couldn't give a toss about Israel anymore, let alone the palestinians.

If secular democracy ever truly takes hold - including a separation between mosque and state - then I'm willing to bet that any 'hatred' of Israel would evaporate too, exposing the whole spat as a regime driven diversion in the first place.

These protest say as much. There's only so long you can suppress a people, and hiding behind Israeli 'evil' will only last so long.

I really really hope that this leads to change.
 
RedKaos said:
Mihaj, that Washington Institute institute think-tank was established by AIPAC. It's one of the most blatant tools of Israeli propaganda, so I'd take which ever 'information' they relay with a pinch of salt.
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Me being the most blatant ;)
 
Fearless said:
I actually think the Arab population couldn't give a toss about Israel anymore, let alone the palestinians.

If secular democracy ever truly takes hold - including a separation between mosque and state - then I'm willing to bet that any 'hatred' of Israel would evaporate too, exposing the whole spat as a regime driven diversion in the first place.

These protest say as much. There's only so long you can suppress a people, and hiding behind Israeli 'evil' will only last so long.

I really really hope that this leads to change.
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Well the interesting thing to note is that the current Arab regimes under threat are all loyal allies to the US, including the most Islamic fundamentalist state in the world - Saudi Arabia, so really they're indirectly, already in good terms with Israel even if they won't admit it publicly.

You also have to remember that Israel was fighting secular Arab states in the 67 and 73, and Nasser - the leader of the secular Pan-Arab nationalist movement was a sworn enemy of Saudi Arabia. So I don't think the secular/religious distinction has anything to do with it.

Again I'm going by general Arab opinion which deeply opposes Israel's current policies and status quo. That's not to say that the hypothetical new regimes would want war, but they would insist that there been deep, profound changes and will still most likely push for a Palestinian state.
 
The whole idea of an Arab brotherhood and support of a Palestinian state for the Palestinians by the Arab dictators is to shift vehemence against their own regimes onto Israel - this does not excuse Israel from its actions but in the Middle East nothing is at it seems.

You ask Saudis what would they want more - a democratic Saudi Arabia or a Palestine state - this goes for all countries in the ME and North Africa that are ruled by dictators.
 
Fearless said:
No it's not.

Until profound, fundamental change occurs in the Arab world - hopefully what we are seeing now - Israel must wait until it has true democratic partners to deal with.

Democracies, rarely, if ever, go to war with each other.
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Yes, that's true for developed democracies, but young/developing democracies are fairly likely to go to war with one another. Democracies in the Middle East wouldn't inherently be peaceful or averse to war for a while.
 
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feck feck feck>. Suez is burning. Live ammo for the first time and many dead. Chaos all over there..the people there are no more demanding political reform, it's about revenge. Things are out of control.. Police have been beaten and station on fire
 
Listen to the guy (possibly salafist) at 0:45 sec ...


"Whether you're a Christian

Whether you're a Muslim

Whether you're an Atheist

....you will demand your GODDAMN RIGHTS"

 
Let my people go!

The human spirit is amazing, and its well overdue that the Arab world deserve better than dictatorship and all the pain that comes as part of it.
 
Fearless said:
Let my people go!

The human spirit is amazing, and its well overdue that the Arab world deserve better than dictatorship and all the pain that comes as part of it.
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Very much agreed.
 
Dear England, try to find out if Gamal Mubarak is indeed in England or not .. Not sure how..Daily Mail says he is, but we need a more credible source :)
 
Fearless said:
Let my people go!

The human spirit is amazing, and its well overdue that the Arab world deserve better than dictatorship and all the pain that comes as part of it.
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I agree with your sentiments. However, I'm not sure the the Arab world is quite ready for full on democracy. It's quite possible at this moment in time some extremist nut jobs may obtain power via a democratic vote.
 
A load of people just marched down my street singing, with green banners.

Unfortunately the banners were all in Arabic, literally every one, so I don't know what it was about.

They were mostly children, veiled (but not burqa'd) women and what looked like intellectuals, plus a few clerics.
 
Plechazunga said:
A load of people just marched down my street singing, with green banners.

Unfortunately the banners were all in Arabic, literally every one, so I don't know what it was about.

They were mostly children, veiled (but not burqa'd) women and what looked like intellectuals, plus a few clerics.
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Was it the pony-tails?
 
The US really doesn't know how to play this - they do not want protests in countries that are ruled by pro western dictators as the status quo suits them but they cannot object to these pro democracy protests as this is what they are promoting so they fudge the issue with qualifying their support.
 
Sultan said:
I agree with your sentiments. However, I'm not sure the the Arab world is quite ready for full on democracy. It's quite possible at this moment in time some extremist nut jobs may obtain power via a democratic vote.
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You mean like Hamas?

If someone wins a vote in a fair democratic manner then isn't this what democracy is about?

Or are you saying democracy is only good when it results in a government we approve of?
 
Commadus said:
You mean like Hamas?

If someone wins a vote in a fair democratic manner then isn't this what democracy is about?

Or are you saying democracy is only good when it results in a government we approve of?
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Even if some sort of democracy comes about after a free election, I'm not sure it will survive in the presence of long established systems. These people need to go, and the systems and authority have to be completely dismantled. We know what happens when long standing systems are broken up (Iraq, Afghanistan, and South Africa are recent examples). I also think democracy needs to be understood by those who come to power and more importantly by the voters. It's not as easy as just copying the West's model. The west has hundreds of years of experience, and trained minds. The Arab world is too tribal at present, and any changes will need to be gradual.

I agree with your sentiment about the West being in a predicament.
 
This is all really fantastic (in spirit, obviously not in the inevitable spurts of violence). I hope it continues and the impetus that's started continues ... There's little more stirring than a population fighting together for it's rights.
 
Mockney said:
This is all really fantastic (in spirit, obviously not in the inevitable spurts of violence). I hope it continues and the impetus that's started continues ... There's little more stirring than a population fighting together for it's rights.
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But when was there ever a bloodless revolution.
 
How powerful is the Salafi movement in Egypt?
 
Not that much, but there are thousands and thousands of them
 
SMS services down. Mobile networks will all go down tomorrow probably. Social networking sites banned. Internet so slow

Words that Mubarak is damn angry at EL Adly (minister of interior) and that the police might fire live ammo at us tomorrow. They already did in Suez and Sinai and some of Sinai Bedouins responded with RPGs!!!

Words also that Eladly might resign if Mubarak asks army to intervene. We don't know how the army will react. They are much stronger and powerful than in Tunisia and apparently they are loyal to Mubarak

If the army fires at us..living is worth shit.

pray for us. tomorrow is worrying . I am going down inshallah.. whatever happens. will happen
 
Avatar said:
Not that much, but there are thousands and thousands of them
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Do they control the Masjid/Islamic institutions?

May Allah SW protect you...
 
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