Cameron has to take account of how the majority of English & Welsh constituents feel as well. Plus it will be much easier to pass the Scottish changes through with MP's backing if you've appeased them on devolution within their own constituencies. All the Party leaders have promised the changes will come, but they need to do it properly and fairly. Salmond doesn't have a right to disregard the views of others in the UK because he's only concerned with Scotland.
Alex Salmond and Independence
- Thread starter Team Brian GB
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Cameron has to take account of how the majority of English & Welsh constituents feel as well. Plus it will be much easier to pass the Scottish changes through with MP's backing if you've appeased them on devolution within their own constituencies. All the Party leaders have promised the changes will come, but they need to do it properly and fairly. Salmond doesn't have a right to disregard the views of others in the UK because he's only concerned with Scotland.
Why should Cameron's proposal be the right one? Why should they not take time over it? Why should we not have a referendum on the decision.
Have Scottish MPs sit out of parliment when a subject that has been devolved to Scotland appears is stupid, and if it comes to fruition it won't last a decade
I never said that Cameron's proposal was the right one, I highlighted that the only party which is actively trying to break the agreed timetable from pre-referendum is Labour.
Surely you have to appreciate the political situation in the UK at the moment. Labour don't want to lose Scottish MPs, the Tory backbenchers won't agree with political reform anyway... It's not an easy position to be in.
Furthermore it's been a matter of days since the result. It's far too early for Salmond or anyone else to be moaning.
I want to see political change throughout the UK, the fact that the Scots seem to be complaining about England wanting its own changes in tandem with Scotland, strikes me again as self-important and selfish.
I don't think they are. Its only been.. 1 working day since the vote?
Its all a huge mess though. There is a very real possibility that the option, or options regarding an English parliment will be a major part of the next general election. In the short term that could mean Scottish MPs abstaining, or voting as normal. Neither affects things in Westminster too much at the moment, except strengthening Cameroon's government from and backbenchers
The complaint isn't about England wanting similar powers at the same time - I don't know where you've drawn that conclusion from. The complaint is that Cameron is trying to change the agreement.
But, while we're in the subject of changing things in tandem; What is stopping him from processing the plans for an English assembly separately? Why do the two process have to share a timetable? A shared timetable, and I'll say this one last time, that was not mentioned when putting the proposal to the people before the referendum when they were trying to sway voter's intentions.
I imagine the shared timetable is aimed at trying to please both parties, north and south of the border. Doing one before the other will make the other feel like second class citizens and breed resentment.
Cameron has stated that he is going through with the promises made, but already Salmond is trying to rally the population against him/Westminster again, when we literally haven't had a working day since the result was announced.
Yeah, but Salmond is a bit of a tube so everyone expects him to keep yapping anyway! Having said that, David Cameron is a liar. Another politician might get away with changing the promise slightly, but Cameron hasn't got the luxury of trust. Anything he does that deviates from the original promise is going to be meet with pessimisn. After all, it took less than a day for him to turn the promise into something that will benefit his own party.
The problem is the attempts to break the timetable. This was supposed to be something that would be swift and agreed upon after a No vote - now it's got the potential to turn into a mess, further delaying any powers we get and putting them into doubt.
It will be a problem for Labour come the election if they are seen by the voters as the party who put a block on the powers being devolved in England.
I think the Scotland and England issues WILL be on different timetables. The 3 parties will come to a temporary agreement regarding England.. The general election will decide things further
Hearing less from Salmond is something to look forward to.
This one will run and run ... until after the election, at which point what happens will depend on who wins. The no vote doesn't really clarify anything except that you won't need your passport to travel to the Quiraing. It just raises more questions.
The turnout and level of discussion in this referendum makes me think that the EU question should be up next - stick or twist?
This one will run and run ... until after the election, at which point what happens will depend on who wins. The no vote doesn't really clarify anything except that you won't need your passport to travel to the Quiraing. It just raises more questions.
The turnout and level of discussion in this referendum makes me think that the EU question should be up next - stick or twist?
Stick. As much as I want to stay in the EU, it's only right that a referendum happens on it since it's clearly a key issue.
Hopefully the big 3 at Westminster will realise that telling their opposition to shut up and listen and patronisisng them isn't going to work this time, even if they're likely to win with their campaign. The slowly growing support for leaving the EU almost seems like the gradual increase in support we saw up here for independence, until it started to appear neck and neck. They have to learn from where the BT campaign went wrong.
I am in the pro-eu camp as well. In a world where there are some enormous superpowers, Europe as a collective can match them (just about) in a way that individual countries such as the UK, can't.
Yeah, I'd agree.
I don't understand what the problem is, Cameron is going through the promise on devolution for Scotland, but now appears that just because he has promised the same thing to England/Wales/N.Ireland also 'some' north of the boarder don't like it.
It's ridiculous, what did you think was going to happen? There's 56 million more people apart of the UK other than Scotland, the Union doesn't revolve around Scotland's 6 million.
It's ridiculous, what did you think was going to happen? There's 56 million more people apart of the UK other than Scotland, the Union doesn't revolve around Scotland's 6 million.
No one is saying it does. But when a devolution timetable being published the day following a No vote was agreed upon, sudden changes and alterations are going to piss people off.
If I ask you to go out your way to do a job for me and say I'll give you £30 the next day, and you do it, then you'd have a right to be a bit pissed off if I say, "wait a minute, I'll get you that money, just wait a month or so". We understand that the rest of the UK needs reform as much as us, but this should have been specified when Cameron and co started making promises the other week. Not after we've voted.
I'm not surprised at you thinking this though since your anti-Scottish agenda's been getting a bit tiresome.
Why? would the promise of reform for England have changed your voting intentions?
I have to say I'm sceptical about any suggestion that the last-ditch promises changed anyone's voting intentions.
I dunno...
"Most Scots want Holyrood to be handed full control over tax and spending decisions - even though this option won’t figure on the referendum ballot paper.
The so-called “devo max” plan, which sees the Scottish Parliament running everything apart from defence and foreign affairs, is backed by 32 per cent of voters according to the latest Scottish Social Attitudes survey, with 31 per cent backing independence.
But the research shows when voters are asked to choose between independence and more devolution, 61 per cent would back ‘devo max’ and only 39 per cent independence. Equally in a run-off between ‘devo max’ and the status quo, ‘devo max’ would win by 62 per cent to 38 per cent."
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...dependence-most-scots-back-devo-max-1-3310342
Do you speak for the whole of Scotland? But what a contradicting post since your next paragraph you are moaning about England/Wales/N.Ireland getting the same deal
Scotland are getting whats what was promised, England wasn't mentioned because England is nothing to do with Scotland and like an above poster said "would the promise of reform for England have changed your (or Scotland) voting intentions?" Was this referendum more about Scotlands self-worth/getting something better than England or thinking Scotland is better than it really is rather than really wanting independence? If so wake the feck up, stop thinking you (Scotland) are more important than you really are and stop with that little country mentality of always getting one over England, maybe once Scotland do that then you can grow as a nation and be a more united nation, rather than a hater one.
Do you speak for the whole of Scotland? But what a contradicting post since your next paragraph you are moaning about England/Wales/N.Ireland getting the same deal
Scotland are getting whats what was promised, England wasn't mentioned because England is nothing to do with Scotland and like an above poster said "would the promise of reform for England have changed your (or Scotland) voting intentions?" Was this referendum more about Scotlands self-worth/getting something better than England or thinking Scotland is better than it really is rather than really wanting independence? If so wake the feck up, stop thinking you (Scotland) are more important than you really are and stop with that little country mentality of always getting one over England, maybe once Scotland do that then you can grow as a nation and be a more united nation, rather than a hater one.
This is hilarious. I love the Caf.
Cameron is trying to stop the backlash from the rest of the UK by attempting to give them something extra at the same time as Scotland. If not, he'll say here you go Scotland, here's your new powers etc and the rest of the UK will rightly say "hang on a minute, what about us?"
I'd save the complaining until you know what the outcome is.
Yes, seeing as they traditionally have a lot of support in Scotland it'll look like they're putting their own needs above the people of England, and it won't win them any friends.
Yeah it's a rather odd situation. Labour rely on the Scottish MPs, and the Tories are generally averse to change and support status quo.
Next general election is going to be interesting.
Next general election is going to be interesting.
That's not the impression I get. All the arguing about an English parliament, or lack thereof, is coming from the English, not the Scots.
I constantly hear English people say indignantly that the Scots shouldn't be able to vote on purely English matters, but I've not heard a Scot disagree yet.
Clear as day to me that Cameron laid a trap for Miliband by tying all the devolution plans together. Miliband now either loses further faith from Labour support up here by failing to deliver on Devo-plus, looks like he is favouring the Scottish by not addressing the democratic deficit in England before 2015, or has to hurry through plans for English only votes on matters to match the PM which would leave a future Labour Government without a majority on key issues that only affect England.
A very smart but cynical play I reckon
A very smart but cynical play I reckon
Indeed.
The collective British public want Europe to work more closely together on defence as well. It's the most popular subject I think.
The anti-EU brigade would counter that defence is nothing to do with the EU. The pro-EU brigade would counter that Finance and Trade Unions and Schengen areas are as much to do with making the world a safer place as anything else... Which I think is the correct answer
You're missing my point. I completely agree with you guys getting extra powers like us. 100%. You deserve what we get, but when we're promised at timetable the day following a No vote with all parties agreeing to that, we're going to be pissed off when it suddenly changes and Miliband's not agreeing with Cameron, and things are going to take a while to work out. It's understandable, but then they shouldn't have made false promises. If you intend to wait a while before giving/deliberating on powers, say so.
Do you speak for the whole of Scotland? But what a contradicting post since your next paragraph you are moaning about England/Wales/N.Ireland getting the same deal
Scotland are getting whats what was promised, England wasn't mentioned because England is nothing to do with Scotland and like an above poster said "would the promise of reform for England have changed your (or Scotland) voting intentions?" Was this referendum more about Scotlands self-worth/getting something better than England or thinking Scotland is better than it really is rather than really wanting independence? If so wake the feck up, stop thinking you (Scotland) are more important than you really are and stop with that little country mentality of always getting one over England, maybe once Scotland do that then you can grow as a nation and be a more united nation, rather than a hater one.
Since this kind of hurts my semi-sobering brain, read my response to Bill.
Of course he did, he (or his planners/advisors) aren't quite as stupid as people would have you believe. The fact that Milliband is about as impressive as a damp lettuce leaf just made it easier.
Yep, he's played a blinder here, albeit against someone who is the political equivalent of a blind man.
Ed won't stick to the timetable now, it would be suicidal. Its nothing against us or a deliberate attempt to annoy the softer Labour voters in Scotland - he just knows he will lose the election in England and therefore the UK if he appears to want further asymmetrical devolution. Mail on Sunday poll right after the referendum has Labour only losing one seat up here, despite the backlash against the Labour Party, he knows we'll hold our nose and vote the twat into power even if he was go back on it.
England isn't being offered anything like the devolution Scotland has or is promised to get. Is there going to be a separate parliament with PR elected representatives outside the Westminster bubble?
My guess is that Labour outflanks the Tories by going for a wide ranging constitutional change well beyond anything Cameron could get support for. Then puts it in Labours manifesto and tries to win the argument. The question is will they be able to put a coherent policy together fast enough?
Cameron isn't a brilliant strategist he is just so weak he has to do the bidding of the John Redwoods.
My guess is that Labour outflanks the Tories by going for a wide ranging constitutional change well beyond anything Cameron could get support for. Then puts it in Labours manifesto and tries to win the argument. The question is will they be able to put a coherent policy together fast enough?
Cameron isn't a brilliant strategist he is just so weak he has to do the bidding of the John Redwoods.
Can I just say I find it ironic how we are all talking about how much labour relies on the Scottish seats when before the referendum we were hearing about how the Scottish votes are so utterly irrelevant
Labour has no danger of losing its Scottish seats if the Liberal vote collapses as the polls suggest. He can afford to go back on his word (which he shouldn't have done in the first place because it was unfair on the English, Welsh and Irish then) and avoid pissing off the people in the battleground constituencies that actually decide the election.
106 key seats targeted by the Labour Party
http://labourlist.org/2013/01/labours-106-battleground-target-seats-for-2015/
106 key seats targeted by the Labour Party
http://labourlist.org/2013/01/labours-106-battleground-target-seats-for-2015/
Last edited:
Whether there is any danger imminently or not is not relevant to the point I was making.
Sorry that this is the wrong way round
Which if true implies it was the elderly, who are more likely to vote, that saved the union. Not exactly surprising, but for all the comments that 16 year olds shouldn't be able to vote, if there was a voting age limit (like Jury duty)... The union would have been dissolved
Which if true implies it was the elderly, who are more likely to vote, that saved the union. Not exactly surprising, but for all the comments that 16 year olds shouldn't be able to vote, if there was a voting age limit (like Jury duty)... The union would have been dissolved
Andy Murray has said he regrets the way he worded his tweet 
But doesnt regret it.Andy Murray has said he regrets the way he worded his tweet
Daily Hail lead with the headline that he regrets it. Telegraph + everyone else that he doesnt.
He is entitled to an opinion, and I have no issue with the tweet or anything else he says, however would he be disapointed with the way he worded the tweet had the Yes camp won?